Aluminum Frame WR will be a pain!


34 replies to this topic
  • Matty05

Posted December 20, 2005 - 10:49 PM

#21

Matty05,
I'll just ignore your opening sentence for now. The point of my comment was that everyone thinks that aluminum frames are the greatest thing. Well we are seeing that aluminum frames don't reduce weight, unnecessarily increase the difficultly of maintenance, generally are believed to be too stiff for offroad riding, cause the price of motorcycles to increase, and can't be straightened or welded (that means buy a new frame when the bike gets tweaked in a get off). Lastly, it is certainly a revelation to me, as it will no doubt be to others, that the 2005 YZ450F was an ill-handling dinosaur that has finally been transformed into a winner with the incorporation of an aluminum frame into the design.

If you bend a steel frame, you don't bend it back do you!
Yamaha went to the aluminum frame for handling. Looks like it worked!
The first gen Honda aluminum frames were stiff. CRF450X has a different frame than the R for off road. People here in Australia all race the R in enduro's, the X is crap.

Can you feel your bike flex? I know I cant. Guaranteed you won't be able to tell the difference in frames. The bike will just work better.

Motorcycles increace in price because of inflation. Might I add oil prices? China's boom has driven up the iron ore price so steel isn't cheap any more.
Don't cry when we get a better bike. We have to pay about $12,000 for a WR450F here in Australia, so don't winge to me about prices of bikes!

  • BajaFool

Posted December 22, 2005 - 10:40 AM

#22

Matty05,
Yes, I've straightened my share of tweaked portions of steel frames and had the opportunity to have foot pegs and cracked engine cradle framework re-welded over the years. Since you acknowledge that you can't feel your frame flex, why would you be eager to fix a non-problem with an expensive aluminum frame, with all of the attendant problems that this type of frame is known to create? I also look forward to innovation in not only motorcycles but in everything that I purchase as a consumer. I don't however, relish the thought of paying ever increasing prices for changes and upgrades that do not significantly add value to a product. In this case, for an off-road motorcycle, I just fail to see significant added value in an aluminum frame. You want to talk motocross, probably some value --- but I don't ride a motocross motorcycle. I specifically bought a 2006 WR450F with the anticipation that the 2007 WR450F will be aluminum framed. I want the other folks to work out all of the problems that will surely occur when this bike is put on the market. Then in a few years, if I want a new motorcycle I will have to buy an aluminum framed bike, like or not. Hopefully, most of the bugs will have been worked out by then. Finally, yes inflation adds to the cost of things that we purchase. However, I was in Japan for Christmas in 2004. The exchange rate was 100 Yen to one Dollar(US). I just checked this morning, one Dollar(US) will buy 117+ Yen. So, let's figure this out. The price of a new Yamaha has in effect dropped 17 percent in one year for an American buyer, yet the retail price for a new 2006 WR450F(still steel framed) increased $200 (US) over here. So, the other and perhaps more important factor that causes prices to increase is that Yamaha raised their prices because they can, not necessarily because the cost of goods and services went up. Changing the subject, where do you live in Australia? My wife taught school in Australia for 2 years. She was over there on a contract with the Australian government. Her school was located in Yurella (sp?) outside of Melbourne.

  • DPW

Posted December 22, 2005 - 01:24 PM

#23

BajaFool,

Have you ridden a new aluminum framed YZF?

  • BajaFool

Posted December 22, 2005 - 04:28 PM

#24

DPW,
No, I have not ridden a 2006 YZ450F. They are still a rather rare breed around here and I don't ride with anyone who has one. I have a friend, with whom I do not ride, who has the 50th anniversary model though. He rode it in the Tecate Hare Scrambles, held earlier this month --- he is FAST. He says that he likes the bike, he buys a new something every year though. None of my usual riding buddies ride four stroke motocross bikes, just offroad bikes, either 2 stoke or 4 stroke. My observations concerning aluminum frames comes from riding and talking with friends who own or have owned Hondas and who experienced some of the problems that Honda Corp. had to overcome when they introduced their aluminum framed motorcycles. Also, my son owned a 2000 Honda 250CR (aluminum frame), on which I got to work several times. He now owns a 2004 Yamaha WR450F. The friend with the 2006 YZ450F mentioned above owned a 2004 Honda CRF450. He couldn't wait to unload it. He is a motorcycle mechanic and he described the Honda as a nightmare to work on. He bought a 2005 Yamaha WR450F to replace it. I hope aluminum frames work out for us, because it certainly seems as though that is what we will be riding in a few years. I just think aluminum frames won't do much for riders of OFFROAD motorcycles except raise prices and make maintenance more difficult. Just my 2 cents worth.

  • BIGBLUEKNIGHT

Posted December 22, 2005 - 05:14 PM

#25

well when the aluminum comes around i will just send my bike to the dealer for that or i will just have to deal with it

  • Matty05

Posted December 24, 2005 - 05:44 AM

#26

Matty05,
Yes, I've straightened my share of tweaked portions of steel frames and had the opportunity to have foot pegs and cracked engine cradle framework re-welded over the years. Since you acknowledge that you can't feel your frame flex, why would you be eager to fix a non-problem with an expensive aluminum frame, with all of the attendant problems that this type of frame is known to create?

I am not a Yamaha engineer!

I also look forward to innovation in not only motorcycles but in everything that I purchase as a consumer. I don't however, relish the thought of paying ever increasing prices for changes and upgrades that do not significantly add value to a product

Who does? But a step forward is a step forward. Do you seriosly think Yamaha could afford to stick with the old?

In this case, for an off-road motorcycle, I just fail to see significant added value in an aluminum frame. You want to talk motocross, probably some value --- but I don't ride a motocross motorcycle.

Because they say a CRF450X handles better than a KTM450EXC, WR450F.....

I specifically bought a 2006 WR450F with the anticipation that the 2007 WR450F will be aluminum framed. I want the other folks to work out all of the problems that will surely occur when this bike is put on the market. Then in a few years, if I want a new motorcycle I will have to buy an aluminum framed bike, like or not. Hopefully, most of the bugs will have been worked out by then.

Remember it is a second gen frame, YZ250 2 smoker is 1st gen.

Finally, yes inflation adds to the cost of things that we purchase. However, I was in Japan for Christmas in 2004. The exchange rate was 100 Yen to one Dollar(US). I just checked this morning, one Dollar(US) will buy 117+ Yen. So, let's figure this out. The price of a new Yamaha has in effect dropped 17 percent in one year for an American buyer, yet the retail price for a new 2006 WR450F(still steel framed) increased $200 (US) over here. So, the other and perhaps more important factor that causes prices to increase is that Yamaha raised their prices because they can, not necessarily because the cost of goods and services went up.

Remember Japan Yen lower, so importing stuff to make bike more expensive! Shipping costs, ahhh the list goes on, but finally, yes, they will sell for the most they can! Who wouldn't? (WR450 biggest selling bike in Australia!)

Changing the subject, where do you live in Australia? My wife taught school in Australia for 2 years. She was over there on a contract with the Australian government. Her school was located in Yurella (sp?) outside of Melbourne.

Couldn't be further away.... I'm right up the top, Nhulunbuy, Northern Territory.

Anyways, I look forward to the 2007 WR, but won't get one untill fuel injection standard. (I suppose you tinnk EFI an expensive waste of time too? Like, what's wrong with the keihin?)

  • Indy_WR450

Posted January 22, 2006 - 07:13 PM

#27

I have been following the Aluminum Frame comments with new YZ450 owners. Here is the latest insanity:

Posted Image


Quote:

[COLOR=Sienna]
I took the great suggestion of removing the top shock bolt to ease installing the subframe and airbox boot to the rear of the carb. I put a 2x4 under the rear wheel, removed the bolt, and allowed the shock to lower about 1". That little extra wiggle room allowed for an easy line up and install of the airboot to the carb. Before, the shock was literally in the way. In addition, with the shock loose, you can pivot it back and see that the boot is all the way on the carb looking from the right side of the bike. I'm also going to move the carb's right rear side vent hose routing to the right front float bowl screw. This will allow better visual check of the airboot / carb junction.

Some observations I made during my disassembly/grease/torque session:
The rear linkage and swingarm pivot bearings had minimal grease. Also, you'll need a 19mm crows foot to torque the bottom linkage bolt to the frame. The frame blocks socket access. The steering head bearings had barely a swipe of grease as well. Tearing her down and lubing the bearings seems almost madatory with these new bikes![/COLOR]

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • jaggley

Posted January 22, 2006 - 07:39 PM

#28

Look, anyone who thinks a bike is $6500-7000 because they put more expense parts on it is just stupid. They are that price because we are willing to pay it. If you look at a 400 Arctic Cat Quad or other big hunter quads they cost 6500-7500 bucks. They have twice the wheels, twice the suspension, more body work and a bi mutha axel in the rear. They also have a more complex frame and the same motor. Why do they cost the same as a new WR450F. Because demographic studies show that we can finance seven grand, but can't get eight grand on average. It is called marketing guys. I had a late eighties CR250R, brand new. It was the same weight as the new CR250R and has the same general design. The bikes have changed, but not that much. I paid less than three grand for that bike.

  • Triumphs

Posted January 22, 2006 - 08:02 PM

#29

Looking forward to the next generation WR, but knowing the MX obsessed Japanese manufacturers, special requests for off-road specific features will fall on deaf ears.

Cost will be kept in line by optimization all existing MX model features.
Want to know what the 07 WR will look like? Just look at the current YZ450....add a bigger gas tank, some lighting and a sidestand plus the usual retuning (detuning?) and don't even think about fuel infection, six speeds and off road specific frames! Won't happen. At least you won't be trying to sort out a packed up EFI system on the side of the trail 40 miles from your truck or house!

  • Matty05

Posted January 22, 2006 - 09:34 PM

#30

Looking forward to the next generation WR, but knowing the MX obsessed Japanese manufacturers, special requests for off-road specific features will fall on deaf ears.

Ummm no! the WR is an offroad specific bike!

As for falling on deaf ears, I don't think so.... Just look at the '06 seat compared to the '05 seat, it is a lot softer. People wanter milder power, that is what the WR has. Quiet exhaust, we got a VERY quiet one. Softer suspension, you guessed it..... I could go on and on, but I won't.
The biggest point of all - I dont understand your red / green sticker thing, but guess why all that AIS, ACV crap is on the bike......

It is hard to please all the people all the time. Yamaha must be doing the best job of all, look at the sales figures..............

Don't worry mate, yamaha listens, just has to put up with lots of rules and crap, that's why US spec has lots of crap on it, which seems to effect the bike in the rest of the world due to manufacturing costs.

One such rule is your new epa laws - expect all offroad bikes to go to EFI - just like sherco and gas gas, it is a hell of a lot easier for a manufacturer to pass compliance with EFI than carburetor. This is why you guy's in USA won't see a registerable 2 stroke in '08 I think (new laws in '07, 1 year to comply).

  • Matty05

Posted January 22, 2006 - 09:40 PM

#31

off road specific frames! Won't happen.

Look at the CRFX compared to the R.......

  • huntmaster

Posted January 22, 2006 - 09:55 PM

#32

Look at the CRFX compared to the R.......

Variation of the same basic frame design there. What people here are suggesting is, seperate from the MX based Al frame...a new generation off-road specific steel cradle frame, six speed gearbox, EFI. I agree that it just won't happen... they would have to build a bike too different from the base YZ, which WILL be the template for a new WR...like it or not!

  • corndog67

Posted January 22, 2006 - 09:57 PM

#33

I have been a machinist for 26 years, working in several machine/welding/fabrication shops. Can anyone tell me why you can't straighten or weld an aluminum frame. I can't think of any reasons.

  • huntmaster

Posted January 22, 2006 - 10:02 PM

#34

Ummm no! the WR is an offroad specific bike! .

Ummm... no kidding! I think he knows that but is just stating the obvious...the off road model will be based on the current MX bike. Yamaha is not going to go out of it's way producing a bike significantly different then the YZ450 basis, particularly with a new frame and 5 speed motor already there to be used. It will be a good bike...but not a unique off road design.

  • Triumphs

Posted January 22, 2006 - 10:19 PM

#35

Ummm... no kidding! I think he knows that but is just stating the obvious...the off road model will be based on the current MX bike.

Exactly. I expect it will be a pretty good bike too...and yes heavilly drawn from the new YZ450 motor and chasis. :thumbsup:




 
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