Do I have to punch my cylinder?


38 replies to this topic
  • dunecj2a

Posted November 16, 2005 - 07:42 AM

#1

Do I have to punch my cylinder or can I clean it out by hand? If I do it by hand what should I use?

  • grayracer513

Posted November 16, 2005 - 08:28 AM

#2

If the bore is in good condition, that is, straight and within tolerances, you need to run a spring ball, or "bottlebrush" hone through it. Your new rings will seat in the first two hours. If you don't have one, and don't want to buy one, take it to a shop that does. It will only cost about $10 to do this, but the difference it will make in how quickly and well the rings seat will be more than worth the price of the tool.

Up next: someone says, "I just used sandpaper and mine works real good." :applause:

  • dunecj2a

Posted November 16, 2005 - 10:24 AM

#3

If the bore is in good condition, that is, straight and within tolerances, you need to run a spring ball, or "bottlebrush" hone through it. Your new rings will seat in the first two hours. If you don't have one, and don't want to buy one, take it to a shop that does. It will only cost about $10 to do this, but the difference it will make in how quickly and well the rings seat will be more than worth the price of the tool.

Up next: someone says, "I just used sandpaper and mine works real good." :p

Once again thanx Gray :applause:
I just got back from the Yami dealer because I needed to get a new cam chain. There service manager said not to do anything to the cylinder. I don't have a whole lot of faith in them, but what do you think would make him say that the cylinder doesn't need to be cleaned out?....thanx again :ride:

  • grayracer513

Posted November 16, 2005 - 10:41 AM

#4

Some people have a fear of doing anything to nikasil plated cylinders. Others just honestly believe they don't need resurfacing. I believe that they do, and at least one reputable builder who posts here, Ron Hamp, agrees. If you can't find someone who will do the job with a ball hone, buy one. I've used them for years, and they absolutely work better than anything else in terms of making the rings seat, and they remove almost no metal in the process.

The shop doesn't have to be a Yamaha dealer, either, or even a motorcycle shop, for that matter. Anyone with a hone 1/2" or so larger in diameter than the cylinder can do this, and the bore in your bike is up there with more cars than you think. Ask for a minimum refinish job with a cross hatch.

  • FFRacing79

Posted November 16, 2005 - 11:14 AM

#5

After you ball hone, make sure you clean the cylinder thoroughly! ATF or WD40 work great. Just use a paper towel and keep wiping it down till it comes out clean. You will be surprised how much crap the ball hone leaves behind. Soap and water just wont cut it though. Tdub

  • dunecj2a

Posted November 16, 2005 - 11:40 AM

#6

All right Fella's thanx again :applause: :ride:

  • grayracer513

Posted November 16, 2005 - 12:44 PM

#7

After you ball hone, make sure you clean the cylinder thoroughly! ATF or WD40 work great.

This is true of any operation, including sanding by hand, that is done involving abrasives inside an engine. And ATF is just plain better than anything for the purpose.

  • SBRacing

Posted November 16, 2005 - 01:08 PM

#8

I just use a little sandpaper and my bike runs great !

  • grayracer513

Posted November 16, 2005 - 03:04 PM

#9

I just use a little sandpaper and my bike runs great !

Told you so. :applause:

  • Shawn_Mc

Posted November 16, 2005 - 04:45 PM

#10

And dont blow it by drooling the piston in oil when you put it back. Hone the cylinder and assemble it dry and when you fire it up, hammer it up and down the street once or twice and believe it or not, the ring will be seated as well as it possibly can be.

Go ahead and lube up the wrist pin, but keep the cylinder, piston and ring pack as clean and dry as you can.

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  • grayracer513

Posted November 16, 2005 - 11:52 PM

#11

And dont blow it by drooling the piston in oil when you put it back. Hone the cylinder and assemble it dry ...

Go ahead and lube up the wrist pin, but keep the cylinder, piston and ring pack as clean and dry as you can.

That's some of the worst advice I've ever seen in print. All lubricated parts should be pre-lubed on assembly, piston an rings included. In 35 years as a professional mechanic, I have never assembled one top end dry, and none of them have failed to seat properly.

  • FZ1426

Posted November 17, 2005 - 03:24 AM

#12

Uh...If you just changed the cam chain and not the rings, you don't need to hone it.

  • grayracer513

Posted November 17, 2005 - 09:14 AM

#13

Uh...If you just changed the cam chain and not the rings, you don't need to hone it.

Obviously. But what is less obvious is that this thread goes with this other one:

http://www.thumperta...74&parentpage=2

He's doing a top end. :applause:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted November 17, 2005 - 09:59 AM

#14

If you can see cross-hatching, Scotch-Brite pad (green) and elbow grease are just fine. Clean it, clean it, clean it.

Agreed that dry assembly is ignorant, although you'd be surprized how many reputable engine guys do this. (amazing really)

Let's talk rings and cylinder wall...
If they are dry, with no sort of lubricant on them at break-in, there will definately be metal sheared off during the break-in period, from both the ring face and the cylinder wall.
If there is no sort of boundery lubricant at work during this process, the metal that gets sheared off is actually being ripped off. And under a microscope these little metal asperities in the surfaces actually undergo a severe micro-heating at time of shear. What this does is actually allow the asperities to micro-weld themselves to each other, and in the process of tearing one of these little asperites off and creating a micro-weld condition, the surrounding metal gets super heated for a split second, and the asperity that is getting sheared off, takes more metal with it.

When we incorporate a boundery type rebuild fluid, it alows the metal asperities to shear off in a uniform manner, without any surrounding metal being micro-welded in the process. A much smoother, and faster break-in is the result.

Use a break-in fluid.

  • grayracer513

Posted November 17, 2005 - 12:27 PM

#15

Let's talk rings and cylinder wall...
If they are dry, with no sort of lubricant on them at break-in, there will definately be metal sheared off during the break-in period, from both the ring face and the cylinder wall.
If there is no sort of boundery lubricant at work during this process, the metal that gets sheared off is actually being ripped off. And under a microscope these little metal asperities in the surfaces actually undergo a severe micro-heating at time of shear. What this does is actually allow the asperities to micro-weld themselves to each other, and in the process of tearing one of these little asperites off and creating a micro-weld condition, the surrounding metal gets super heated for a split second, and the asperity that is getting sheared off, takes more metal with it.

Precisely. You get grinding and scraping, not polishing; the exact opposite of what you want. The truth is that good lubrication is more important during break-in than after.

If you can see cross-hatching, Scotch-Brite pad (green) and elbow grease are just fine. Clean it, clean it, clean it.

If you do it this way, the rings may indeed seat. In fact, which the higher tolerances, better materials, and the use of moly filled compression rings, they are even likely to. But you are trying to restore the engine's cylinder to an as new condition by replacing the piston and rings. Why take a halfway measure like this, and build an engine that won't hold a seal as long as it would if it had been honed properly?

  • dunecj2a

Posted November 17, 2005 - 12:54 PM

#16

If you do it this way, the rings may indeed seat. In fact, which the higher tolerances, better materials, and the use of moly filled compression rings, they are even likely to. But you are trying to restore the engine's cylinder to an as new condition by replacing the piston and rings. Why take a halfway measure like this, and build an engine that won't hold a seal as long as it would if it had been honed properly?[/QUOTE]

Well Gray I may be in trouble. I just took my cylinder to the shop and since it is Nikasil they will not hone it :p These are old school guys who are set in there ways, its not a dealer shop. They do all the machine work for everyone in town. Anyways he told me that since Wiseco does not say honing is necessary for plated cylinders, they do not want to do it :p Well I'm pretty pressed for time here to get this thing back together and break it in before X-Giving. What should I do now? Can I hone it myself without a drill press? :applause: :ride: Is the Scotchbrite route in my future????

  • grayracer513

Posted November 17, 2005 - 01:15 PM

#17

Hone it yourself. Any good auto parts outlet will have the hone, or can get one quickly enough. You need a spring ball, or bottlebrush cylinder hone, minimum 4" diameter, maximum 4 1/2". (you have a 3 3/4" bore, if that comes up) If two different grits are offered, choose the finer one.

You don't need a drill press, but you do need a drill that will turn at about 500 rpm, and has the capacity to accept the hone shaft. A good 3/8" with a low speed setting should work. A 1/2" is better. Thoroughly wet the hone by dipping it in a can of solvent, mineral spirits, or kerosene and push it into the cylinder. Hold the drill in one hand, and the cylinder in the other, with room at the bottom of the cylinder for the hone to extend part way out. As soon as you start the drill, begin to run the hone up and down the length of the bore so that a third of it comes out at either end. Reverse directions without stopping, so that the hone is always moving along the length of the bore as it turns. You should make a pass to the bottom and back to the top at the rate of about one or two times a second. This will create the cross hatch pattern. Make only 4 passes down the bore and pull the hone free BEFORE you stop the drill. Check the cylinder. You should see that the entire wall surface has been refinished, leaving no untouched "shadows" or vertical scoring. If these are present, repeat the above procedure again, once. It should need no more than that.

Remember to THOROUGHLY clean the cylinder afterwards, finishing with a white rag and ATF. Wipe the bore until the rag comes away clean.

You can do this. :applause:

  • dunecj2a

Posted November 17, 2005 - 02:19 PM

#18

I owe you , thanx :applause: :ride:

  • SBRacing

Posted November 17, 2005 - 02:37 PM

#19

What ? No sandpaper :applause:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted November 17, 2005 - 04:14 PM

#20

If you can see cross-hatching, Scotch-Brite pad (green) and elbow grease are just fine...

If there is visible, symetrical cross-hatching, then ball honing is not required. I guess this point is debatable, but there is no reason to imply that there will not be a good seating of the rings if only an abrasive pad is used when the cross-hatching is intact.

An unskilled person with a hone of any type, including fine grade ball hones, can easily take off more material than is needed. Nobody will take off more material than needed with a green scotch-brite pad. :applause:





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