new chain and sprockets for 04 yz450


68 replies to this topic
  • grayracer513

Posted October 28, 2005 - 08:42 AM

#21

The measurement method in the manual is somewhat simpler (page 3-31, or near that). Measure from inside the first roller to inside the 11th using a vernier caliper. They take the arithmetic out of it for you by providing a specified limit of 6" for this measurement, which is 2.5% over length. (a new 520 chain would measure 5.85"). If you want to reduce your wear limit to a lower level, calculate it as a percentage of 5.85. Remember to measure it in multiple places and check tension consistency all the way around.

The wear pattern shown on Ironman's web site IS in fact simple sprocket wear, and does not indicate a stretched chain. First, note that the sprocket rotates counter clockwise as shown. The wear is apparent from 7:00 to 9:00 o'clock in each tooth valley, on the drive bearing face. If the chain were too long, the points of the teeth would also be worn, and/or pulled to the left. As they are, the chain has never contacted them, because the pitch is still short enough to keep the roller from reaching the tooth point.

In the manual, also on 3-31, is an illustration of a worn sprocket, slightly exaggerated for effect. The tooth at the left was worn by a chain still within limits, the tooth on the right was damaged by a stretched chain.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted October 30, 2005 - 03:13 AM

#22

Gray, I realize you give great credence to the Yamaha manuals, but for one thing, they are sometimes very generic in explination of terms and procedure. Couple that with the fact that they are 3rd party tech references (tranaslated from Japanese to English), they tend to be just on the edge of precise, and should be looked at as such.

Also, I know you are making an assumption on the "simple wear" thing. There can be wear created by extraneous factors such as dirt and corrosion, but the working faces of a sprocket's tooth profile will only wear due to these extraneous factors, and there will be little to no wear due to "simple" running of the chain when it is within safe running limits.

Controvercial, yes...but the percentage of chain elongation that the manual provides as the limit is generally accepted as a limit for conveyance machinery, where running conditions are more stable and predictable.
You will find that for a transmission chain, the acceptable elongation limits are a bit less than 2.5%. In fact, most moto chain mfg's will recommend that 1.5% is the limit for elongation of standard roller chain, and 1.0% the limit for ring type chains. (the reason ring chains get a shorter duration is due to the fact that once a ring chain reaches 1% elongation, it is on a FAST paced trek to it's death...and the death of the sprockets as well, as the lubrication has depleted).
This recommendation, btw, is concerning when the sprockets will actually start to see deformation from chain elongation.
If the chain remains within the recommended length, there will be very negligable wear on the working faces of the sprocket teeth.

The photo of the worn Ironman sprocket clearly shows wear indicative of chain elongation. Actually a great classic view of it.
There is definately wear on the left side of the valley, as would be seen from running a chain with long pitch, and there is also wear shown on the opposite working faces as well. Very little wear there, but it is obvious that the wear continues up past the point of the tooth. This is usually the last place the wear starts to show, and if the chain were not seeing a great pulsation, as in a more stable conveyor chain, that particular wear may not bee seen when the chain is elongated the same length.
My visual analysis of that particular sprocket leads me to believe they ran a chain, or chains, WAY past spec on it. Especially knowing how hard the sprocket material is.
Posted Image

A look at this simple sketch may help to provide a better visual of what is happening when a sprocket engages an elongated chain.
Posted Image

  • Satch0922

Posted October 30, 2005 - 06:16 AM

#23

Gray...he means "explanation" , "controversial" , "negligible" , "definitely"

Also....sealed o-ring chains are the devil to the folks that push chain lube.

  • ncmountainman

Posted October 30, 2005 - 06:51 AM

#24

a properly cared for non o- ring chain will outlast and outperform a o-ring,they are just high maintenance. therefore us lazy americans dive onto any bandwagon involving less maintenance. i'm sure for the same price we could get 3-4 non o-ring chains,take care of them and change them out for a new one every 3 months. keeping well within the stretch limits,and if what i read is correct allow our sprockets a to live a good long life :banghead:

  • revolucien

Posted October 30, 2005 - 08:34 AM

#25

a properly cared for non o- ring chain will outlast and outperform a o-ring,they are just high maintenance. therefore us lazy americans dive onto any bandwagon involving less maintenance. i'm sure for the same price we could get 3-4 non o-ring chains,take care of them and change them out for a new one every 3 months. keeping well within the stretch limits,and if what i read is correct allow our sprockets a to live a good long life :banghead:


ncmountainman, is the Ti chain you are running an o-ring? about what cost ? and who makes it?

  • DigilubeJay

Posted October 31, 2005 - 03:50 AM

#26

Gray...he means "explanation" , "controversial" , "negligible" , "definitely"

Also....sealed o-ring chains are the devil to the folks that push chain lube.

AH... maybe you should visit one of those boards for punctuation and spelling geeks. I'm certain they would appreciate your insite and knowledge.

And for your information, I have NEVER said that ring chains are a bad thing. In fact, I run a ring chain...WHEN THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE RUN...which is when the conditions are sloppy. For all other times I run a standard roller chain. Also, a ring chain needs lube every bit as much as a standard chain, if not more.

Only problem I have is with folks who are so lazy that they think they can run a ring chain and pull absoutely no maintenance on it.
The ring chain is a more maitnenance intense item than the standard roller chain is, IF you are doing things correctly.
But, I realize that those who are set in their ways, and feel that what they have been doing is the only way to do things.

nc is correct, a standard roller chain will outperform and outlast ANY ring chain if given proper care.
However, if you do not understand what it takes to perform proper chain and sprocket maint., then you will find that the ring chain may well outlast a standard roller chain.

I can't figure out why folks think standard chains are so much more maint intensive than a ring chain?

Both types of chains need to be cleaned/lubed/adjusted properly.
However, there are rings involved that need to be inspected and kept supple...in fact, there are approx. 220-240 added areas of inspection added to a ring chain that the standard doesn't have.
Ever hear of the "weakest link" analogy?

No, satch..I am not simply dissing ring chains due to the fact that I peddle chain lube. Not the situation at all.
I am simply providing some information that is lacking from most of the dirt biking communities trains of thought.
Especially those who think they have it all figured out, and have no room in their heads for additional information that may go against the grain of what they "percieve" as correct.

Maybe you could provide us with your thoughts on the subject?
Or is correct spelling all that you have?
Since we are being condescending here...my bet is that the latter is probably the best you can do.
Or do you just get upset when someone challanges something one of your boyfriends provided? :banghead:

  • Satch0922

Posted October 31, 2005 - 04:19 AM

#27

Gray is my boyfriend? SWEET!

Jay.....it's just difficult to take someone serious who spouts off a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo and can't even spell. Heck I have ten year old who can spell those words!


Anyway....I rarely see you contribute to the board unless it has to do with chains or lube.....what a shock.

  • sirthumpalot

Posted October 31, 2005 - 04:26 AM

#28

Let me distill this thread for anyone checking in for the first time. If you want to ride a lot and don't like adjusting, cleaning or replacing the chain and sprockets, then get a sealed chain (o,x,z-ring) and steel sprockets and go ride. There are a few steel sprockets that are cut to be very light these days, such as the Ironman.

There's a poll around here somewhere that I posted eons ago where people voted on if they got longer life from standard or sealed chains. Apparently I'm no good with the search, can anyone find it?

  • ncmountainman

Posted October 31, 2005 - 05:41 AM

#29

ncmountainman, is the Ti chain you are running an o-ring? about what cost ? and who makes it?

krause makes it and is available from sidewinder. its a teflon o-ring :banghead: i'm not sure how much actual titanium is involved but its one tuff mutha

  • grayracer513

Posted October 31, 2005 - 10:43 AM

#30

Gray is my boyfriend? SWEET!

That's the direction he generally goes when he thinks he's losing the point, or isn't being taken seriously enough.

A look at this simple sketch may help to provide a better visual of what is happening when a sprocket engages an elongated chain.

I have no idea as to why you think that I don't know that. Nevertheless, my opinion remains as expressed earlier, in agreement with the sprocket manufacturer, your dissent notwithstanding.

Another thing is your continued disdain for the service manual written by the people who built the bike. The obvious inference is that, as a manufacturer of a motorcycle, Yamaha either doesn't know how to properly adjust and care for a chain, or simply doesn't care, and that you know more than they do. On the other hand, you're certainly free to insist on an even higher standard for your own bike if you want to. Please also note that I did not suggest that anyone use the published 2.5% service limit. In fact, I said:

If you want to reduce your wear limit to a lower level, calculate it as a percentage of 5.85.

So, all anyone need do to use your 1.5% spec is to multiply 5.85 by 1.015 and use the resulting figure of 5.93 as the limit. That's a decision for the user to make.

In any case, a YZ450 is not a conveyor belt. It doesn't live in a nice safe little indoor environment where everything is controlled and smooth and constant. As far as maintenance, I wash the bike, including the chain, with simple green, I dry it, and I shoot it with Maxima Synthetic Chain Guard. I inspect it occasionally. That's all there is to my maintenance schedule. The chain currently measures 5.864, using the method shown in the manual or 0.24% over length (average of 15 overlapping measured sections with a minimum of 5.858, and a high of 5.869). The chain is a Regina ORN, and is over a year old. I may have to adjust it before the end of November. We'll see.

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  • ncmountainman

Posted October 31, 2005 - 11:00 AM

#31

hey gray, they say that simple green is not good for aluminum,it can cause hydrogen embrittlement? the military has stopped using it and related products for this reason. just what i heard,i used to use it and stopped just in case it was true. too bad,cuz it really worked and smelled great. any truth to it?

  • Ga426owner

Posted October 31, 2005 - 11:19 AM

#32

hey gray, they say that simple green is not good for aluminum,it can cause hydrogen embrittlement? the military has stopped using it and related products for this reason. just what i heard,i used to use it and stopped just in case it was true. too bad,cuz it really worked and smelled great. any truth to it?


I hope the hell not as I have been using this on my 03 since day one.....no metal fatique or failures yet.....

  • DigilubeJay

Posted October 31, 2005 - 11:42 AM

#33

Jay.....it's just difficult to take someone serious who spouts off a bunch of technical mumbo jumbo and can't even spell. Heck I have ten year old who can spell those words!

I find it hard to take someone seriously who worries about spelling, but is cluless on the issues. :banghead:

Anyway....I rarely see you contribute to the board unless it has to do with chains or lube.....what a shock.

That is a completely ignorant statement. Why don't you go through and pick apart any of my contributions to this board. Limit the subject matter to other than chains and sprockets, so it should be an easy task for you.

Other than that...you need to sit back and take stock in your all important self. And stick to subjects you have a clue about.

That's the direction he generally goes when he thinks he's losing the point, or isn't being taken seriously enough.

No, gray, it is the direction I go when somebody decides they will add some deragatory comments that do nothing but incite trouble.

I have no idea as to why you think that I don't know that.

Because you provided information that was incorrect, that's why. You stated:

The wear pattern shown on Ironman's web site IS in fact simple sprocket wear, and does not indicate a stretched chain. First, note that the sprocket rotates counter clockwise as shown. The wear is apparent from 7:00 to 9:00 o'clock in each tooth valley, on the drive bearing face. If the chain were too long, the points of the teeth would also be worn, and/or pulled to the left. As they are, the chain has never contacted them, because the pitch is still short enough to keep the roller from reaching the tooth point.
In the manual, also on 3-31, is an illustration of a worn sprocket, slightly exaggerated for effect. The tooth at the left was worn by a chain still within limits, the tooth on the right was damaged by a stretched chain.

What you provided here is incorrect. I simply provided information to show why it was incorrect.

Some of you guys are hard as hell. Be ok though...if you had your stuff together. :banghead:

  • 642MX

Posted October 31, 2005 - 12:22 PM

#34

Wow this is getting good! Now, all we need is the fuel injection guy on here and we will be set. :banghead:

BTW, I have a Regina (Z ring?) chain. I've had it for almost 2 years and I can't remember the last time I adjusted it. I ride 3 times a month, mostly MX and some woods. I also use a pressure washer on it, and lube it with whatever is handy. I know, I'm a sinner. :banghead:

Lube guy, Satch and Grayracer are 2 of the most respected and knowledgable people on this board, together, they have probably forgot more than you will ever know. Challenging them about this only ruins your credibility on here.

  • ncmountainman

Posted October 31, 2005 - 01:19 PM

#35

just imagine,a world without jets :banghead: :banghead: i'm sure FI has its drawbacks too!

  • GENE426

Posted October 31, 2005 - 03:24 PM

#36

The power of the bike has nothing to do with the chain and sprockets wearing out.
The chain is rated for the brute strength of your bike and then some, and the sprockets will only deform when the chain elongates from wear.

from a worn out chain until the chain reaches ~3% elongation. One reason I never recommend folks use a hard steel rear, as it can mask a chain that is way past specs and in to dangerous zone.

A YZ450 WILL ROAST A RENTHAL ALUM SPROCKET QUICK! !! ! !!! !!! ! !! :banghead:
I WENT THRU 3 BEFORE I BOUGHT THE IRONMAN SPROCKET AND SO FAR SO GOOD

  • grayracer513

Posted October 31, 2005 - 03:49 PM

#37

I also use a pressure washer on it...

Be very prudent with that. When washing the chain, back away beyond 8 inches and spray directly at the sides of the chain, not down at the rollers. What you want to avoid forcing water under the seals, which not only gets water in, it will push lubricant out.

Another point about sealed chains to remember is that when you remove the master link, you need to clean and re-lube the pins and bushings as you reassemble it.

  • Satch0922

Posted October 31, 2005 - 05:15 PM

#38

wow...you would think that I called his mother a name. And after all that he comes back with more mispelled words!!!! LMAO. It kills me....so much knowledge and techincal expertise with no formal schooling.....:lol:

Anyway...I guess I should get a clue about this stuff....I have been riding and racing since 1977 ....I might as well learn now before it's too late.

SirThump's post here made the most sense and he never got into theory or flexing his brain muscle for us.... :banghead:

Like 642MX said....I have forgotten a lot.....except for my grade school spelling classes.

:banghead:

  • Satch0922

Posted October 31, 2005 - 05:25 PM

#39

A YZ450 WILL ROAST A RENTHAL ALUM SPROCKET QUICK! !! ! !!! !!! ! !! :banghead:
I WENT THRU 3 BEFORE I BOUGHT THE IRONMAN SPROCKET AND SO FAR SO GOOD



Gene your right. A Renthal standard chain and "Ultralite" sprocket will last about a week on a 426/450. Funny thing is I changed to a Regina o-ring (they make the Renthal) and stayed with the aluminum sprockets and only adjusted the chain 2 times in 7 months. And that was on my 426 and riding it 3-4 times per month. On my 250 I went with an RK GB520MXZ after the very first break-in ride. I stayed with the stock sprockets. The RK is not an o-ring but on the smoker (that does not have the torque the YZF has) it has lasted nicely. The bike has 60 hrs on it and the chain and sprockets are in great shape.

That makes me believe the motor has a lot to do with chain stretch. Nothing here but REAL WORLD testimony... :banghead:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted October 31, 2005 - 08:32 PM

#40

Lube guy, Satch and Grayracer are 2 of the most respected and knowledgable people on this board, together, they have probably forgot more than you will ever know. Challenging them about this only ruins your credibility on here.

THese guys have been challanging just about everything I have provided on chain ans sprocket care from the day I stepped in here.
Right off the bat, grayracer provided some information about the care of ring chains that was incorrect. I simply challanged what he had provided and ...WHammmooo. it has been a non-stop pissing match ever since.
Hey, I realize the guy has aquired alot of good information in his years of service as an auto tech., but to say he has forgotten more than I know...how can you state that? You don't know me from Adam. You have no idea what I know or don't know. Sure, you may figure out that I am not much on spelling...or maybe typing...or taking the time to use the spell check...but that is something that folks like Scratch would worry themselves over.
I have been providing valid, technicaly correct information that not only works out on paper, but IN THE REAL WORLD as well.

Like when folks holler that their brute thumper can tear up an aluminumn sprocket in no time...I happen to know for a fact, from years of experience, study, and testing that what these folks are saying is incorrect. It is a very common thing for folks to blame the reasons behind their equipment failure on the wrong things...and that is one of the reasons I am providing to all what I have found out. Take it or leave it...or do the best you can to challange it.
But, if you do, bring more than a simple anecdote, because there ARE root causes to things failing, and on motorcycle chain drives, I have seen it all.

The biggest problems riders have is not pulling the proper maintenance. It is amazing how many folks have been adjusting their chains and sprockets the same way for years, and blame the fast failures on the equipment..or the brute force of their bike, when in fact they are missing just one itty bitty key point that makes all the difference in the world in how their equipment performs.

Another problem is with the products that folks use to maintain their chain drives. I mean...WD-40...please...amazing how some folks will back this product to the hilt. Folks, if you think a penetrant cannot get past the o-rings of a chain, think again. And that may be OK, but for the fact that WD-40 has little to nothing good in it for a chain. It has plenty of solvent though..that can displace factory injected lube and help to damage rings made of certain materials. But to explain this to some would be like commiting blaspheme.

And these crappy, gooey lubes do nothing but present problems for folks...and help to accelerate the wear of both chains and sprockets...but try to explain this to people and again...blaspheme and treason!

And manuals...yes they can be misleading...yes they can provide information that is a bit generic in nature...
Take for instance the recommendation that most mfg manuals provide as to what to lube you chain with. Heck, they know lots more about the bike than anyone right, They must, they build them right?
Yet many recommend using 10w30 engine oil or gear lube to lubricate them with.
Folks who heed that advice are of those that probably do not get much life out of their chain drive.
Not sure, but KTM may be recommending Motorex chain lube now. But that has nothing to do with what product is best to use..it is simply a money deal, and nothing more.

Hey, I'm not providing long drawn out posts simply for the fun of it. I am providing information on a subject that I have some knowledge on.
Challange it if you want, that is fine, but bring more than your ego and misinformation to the table.

But before you feel like I have lost all credibility here, simply because I argue with folks who have established themselves as the know all to end all debates, take a good hard read at what I'm providing.
Also take a good hard look at wht they are providing, and not simply take their word for it.
I think some think they have it all figured out, and if any information goes againt the grain of what they have defined as proper, it gets trashed and made fun of.
Even to a point of some trying to re-invent the wheel, in an attempt to show I'm wrong.
Amazing.

Actually, if you think about it...why even have a discussion board anyway?
I mean, heck...of you have a resident know-it-all that can answer definatively on every suject that surfaces, why not simply have an Ask Gray board? He could have Scratch moderate! :banghead:


"Yeah, Goober...you are dead up spot-on...your thumpler can eat a sprocket in no time flat...my beast eats mine allatime!"
"HEll, yeah...that's what I thought too....pass the WD-40, Podge! :banghead:





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