What kind of Engine Oil should I use?


21 replies to this topic
  • BullDZR

Posted October 02, 2005 - 04:23 PM

#1

k, here is my delima, not really a delima but hey, can't ride with no oil :banghead:

I have an 02 426 comng in tomorrow, It has been completely drained of fluid before shipping and I have to replace. I do not want to pay for freakin yamalube. I ran Castrol High RPM in my RC51 and was wondering if I can run standard or synthetic in the YZF. I will still be doing regular oil changes of about once every other ride, or every ride if I run it hard.

What do you guys recommend or use. Thanks in advance

Wayne

  • fast426

Posted October 02, 2005 - 04:36 PM

#2

k, here is my delima, not really a delima but hey, can't ride with no oil :banghead:

I have an 02 426 comng in tomorrow, It has been completely drained of fluid before shipping and I have to replace. I do not want to pay for freakin yamalube. I ran Castrol High RPM in my RC51 and was wondering if I can run standard or synthetic in the YZF. I will still be doing regular oil changes of about once every other ride, or every ride if I run it hard.

What do you guys recommend or use. Thanks in advance

Wayne

I'd stick with the Yamalube. Best on the market. There's a reason it's expensive. If you use the wrong stuff you'll be doing a clutch. I see people buy freakin' 60,000 dollar trucks every day and then cheap out on oil to save 20 bucks an oil change. Then whine and complain when something goes wrong. Where I'm at it's only an extra 3-5 bucks a litre more, and if you do a complete oil change with filter you use less than 2 litres. Just my opinion, that's all.

  • phat_450f

Posted October 02, 2005 - 04:52 PM

#3

You know i dint mean to be rude in anyway but isnt synthetic around 3 to 3.50 a quart. I pay 3.95 for a quart of yamalube and no offense what is 50 cents more a quart when you know yamaha recommends it. Just my 2 cents.

  • grayracer513

Posted October 02, 2005 - 04:52 PM

#4

Use any good quality 10w-40 oil (or 15/20w-50, if you prefer) that has JASO MA, and/or API SG/SH gradings, and is NOT labeled EC or energy conserving. Good synthetics are generally superior to dino oils, and there are some excellent blends available. If you are happy with the oil you're running in your RC51, you should be able use it the Yamaha UNLESS the RC has the engine separate from the transmission oil, in which case, you'll need to examine the label.

At issue is the suitability of the oil for wet clutch applications. If your v-twin has a clutch running in engine oil, you've already answered that.

  • 97chevy

Posted October 02, 2005 - 04:52 PM

#5

I'd say when you spend so much money on a bike, you might as well put some quality oil in the thing. I would recommend Amsoil, Honda HP4, or yamalube. If it is cheap there is probably a reason for it. Just my $.02 .

  • 450GN

Posted October 02, 2005 - 07:24 PM

#6

i used yamalube forever and now switched to amsoil..

like amsoil and it never seems to get dirty!

still do my oil changes every few rides and oil still looks brand new almost when changing and i ride the bike pretty hard

wonder if that means anything oh well...

  • fast426

Posted October 02, 2005 - 08:23 PM

#7

You know i dint mean to be rude in anyway but isnt synthetic around 3 to 3.50 a quart. I pay 3.95 for a quart of yamalube and no offense what is 50 cents more a quart when you know yamaha recommends it. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry, I did'nt mention it's about 3.00 a litre more in CANADA. The proper generic synthetics run around 5 bucks to 6 bucks a litre. I get Yamalube around 8 bucks. You U.S. guys get everything cheaper. I'm paying $ 3.60 USD per U.S gallon of gas where I live.

  • bratz

Posted October 03, 2005 - 06:49 AM

#8

anyone know whether its ok to use API SL motor oil?

  • walent215

Posted October 03, 2005 - 06:59 AM

#9

silkolene full syn

  • grayracer513

Posted October 03, 2005 - 07:52 AM

#10

anyone know whether its ok to use API SL motor oil?

Yes and no, maybe. It isn't the best choice, and some can't be used at all.

If it says "EC" in the API grading circle on the label, it can't be used, as the friction reducers will more than likely cause clutch problems.

In any case, SL and SJ oils both have lower levels of phosphorus and zinc anti-wear additives than the older SG/SH oils did, with SL having the least. These were removed by order of the U.S. EPA to prolong the life of automobile catalytic converters. Nothing that has been added or increased as a replacement has ever been shown to be as effective. It was a matter of enough concern to Yamaha and other Japanese manufacturers of high performance four strokes to ask the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) to create an oil grade standard that essentially duplicates the old SG/SH standards. Both JASO MA and MB oils have high levels of zinc and phosphorus. MA is further certified for use with wet clutches. MB is only for use in engines that keep the transmission oil separated, like the CRF's, and cannot be used with wet clutches because of the friction reducers they contain.

Oddly, after having participated in the creation of the JASO standards, Yamaha continues to offer YamaLube, which the last time I looked, is an SJ oil, and not labeled JASO MA. If you go strictly by that, YamaLube does not meet the requirements set down for any of the '04 and earlier YZF's since they all call for an SG or SH oil.

A good SL oil can have the exact same base oils as a good SG or MA oil, and for the vast majority of the time, will lube just as well. The Zinc and Phosphorus additives are what are known as "boundary" lubricants; "emergency lubricants" if you will. These come into play when the oil film is on the verge of failure under extreme load pressure, or has failed. The P and Zn compounds, along with Calcium and Moly, remain between embedded in the surfaces of the two lubed parts as a last level of lubrication before metal-to-metal contact occurs. Under "ordinary" circumstances, this might never happen, but it only takes once to do some possibly serious damage.

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  • Emiliano

Posted October 03, 2005 - 11:03 AM

#11

Go with Yamalube man you are getting a bike that cost several bucks and should take care of it.
I run yamalube on mine and no problems at all, I also used to run yamalube on my old CR 250 2 smoke and was great. For the mix and for the gear box and clutch
Don't hesitate on oil man

  • DigilubeJay

Posted October 04, 2005 - 05:53 AM

#12

Yes and no, maybe. It isn't the best choice, and some can't be used at all.

If it says "EC" in the API grading circle on the label, it can't be used, as the friction reducers will more than likely cause clutch problems.

Seems to be a pattern of us disagreeing, grayracer.
I completely disagree with you here. You are passing along myth and legend.
But don't feel lonely, it seem the "Energy Conserving" myth is followed by the majority of bikers...and why? Because they get information thrown at them all the time like this.

However, it is unwarranted.
If your wet clutch slips, it is more than likely due to an already existing problem. The clutch plates may already be burnt, or there is basket notching or a spring issue. But, it will not MORE THAN LIKELY be the choice of oil
That simply isn't so.
Telling folks to completly steer away from "Energy Conserving" oils is simply passing on bad info.

Another myth is that we need to run motorcycle specific oils in our engines. That is a total load of marketing crap. But, it seems that many are afraid NOT to take the advice. It's your money...and the oil mfg wants more of it. So he make you think his moto specific oil is greatly superior to the lower priced, off-the-shelf oils. It JUST ISN'T SO!

The facts are that you can use just about any bargain priced oil and will be fine. It is the frequency of change that is far more important than oil choice.
And yes, you may well find that one oil may contribute to the shifting not feeling like you want it, but that is due more to the viscosity of the fluid than anything else.

OK...I'm full of BS....EC oils are bad for your clutch and you should never use them. Especially those that contain molybdenum!
But wait....Mobil MX4T (motorcycle specific synthetic) contains moly! OH MY GOSH, how can that be?
And the similar Redline oil has over three times the moly of MX4T...yet there are no reports of it causing any clutch issues at all. How can that be?

Folks...you have been fed a load of bullensheisen, that is perpetuated ad infinitum.

How's it taste??? :banghead:

  • MotoGoalie

Posted October 04, 2005 - 09:27 AM

#13

It tastes good, especially straight from the source.

  • BullDZR

Posted October 04, 2005 - 09:38 AM

#14

Another myth is that we need to run motorcycle specific oils in our engines. That is a total load of marketing crap. But, it seems that many are afraid NOT to take the advice. It's your money...and the oil mfg wants more of it. So he make you think his moto specific oil is greatly superior to the lower priced, off-the-shelf oils. It JUST ISN'T SO!


This is why I ran the Quakerstate HighRPM(full Synthetic) in my RC51. If you do regular oil changes as we all should, you are never going to reach, not even close, the breakdown point of ANY oil. That being said, I do believe some oils are better. But the Oil companys are not above bottling the same oil in two different containers and charging you twice as much for one just because it is vehicle specific.

The reason I posted this question, was I too heard about the no moly in our bikes and wondered if that was still an issue. Thanks everyone for you opinions and views.

As for the cost of the Quakerstate HighRPM, I usually buy cases at a time and always when they are on sale, which I usually get a case for around $18-$25 a case which is a bit cheaper than yamalube. Guess I will stick with the Quakerstate.

Wayne

  • bratz

Posted October 04, 2005 - 10:49 AM

#15

Yes and no, maybe. It isn't the best choice, and some can't be used at all.

If it says "EC" in the API grading circle on the label, it can't be used, as the friction reducers will more than likely cause clutch problems.

In any case, SL and SJ oils both have lower levels of phosphorus and zinc anti-wear additives than the older SG/SH oils did, with SL having the least. These were removed by order of the U.S. EPA to prolong the life of automobile <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=22&k=catalytic%20converters" onmouseover="window.status='catalytic converters'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">catalytic converters</a>. Nothing that has been added or increased as a replacement has ever been shown to be as effective. It was a matter of enough concern to Yamaha and other Japanese manufacturers of high performance four strokes to ask the Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) to create an oil grade standard that essentially duplicates the old SG/SH standards. Both JASO MA and MB oils have high levels of zinc and phosphorus. MA is further certified for use with wet clutches. MB is only for use in engines that keep the transmission oil separated, like the CRF's, and cannot be used with wet clutches because of the friction reducers they contain.

Oddly, after having participated in the creation of the JASO standards, Yamaha continues to offer YamaLube, which the last time I looked, is an SJ oil, and not labeled JASO MA. If you go strictly by that, YamaLube does not meet the requirements set down for any of the '04 and earlier YZF's since they all call for an SG or SH oil.

A good SL oil can have the exact same base oils as a good SG or MA oil, and for the vast majority of the time, will lube just as well. The Zinc and Phosphorus additives are what are known as "boundary" lubricants; "emergency lubricants" if you will. These come into play when the oil film is on the verge of failure under extreme load pressure, or has failed. The P and Zn compounds, along with Calcium and Moly, remain between embedded in the surfaces of the two lubed parts as a last level of lubrication before metal-to-metal contact occurs. Under "ordinary" circumstances, this might never happen, but it only takes once to do some possibly serious damage.



Thank u for for detailed explaination...i'm currently using Total Hi-Perf SAE15w50(for motorcycles) in my bike and was just wondering whether it's safe...i guess i'll better stick with what the manual sugest...by the way a few of my friens with 600cc sportbikes are using this oil also

  • grayracer513

Posted October 04, 2005 - 11:21 AM

#16

Well, DJ, the fact that you disagree with me has become something of a matter of course, and should surprise no one.

However, in this matter, you also elect to disagree with Yamaha, JASO and and others who might possibly know something that you don't, who knows?

Synthetic or non-synthetic, and/or Moly content, in and of themselves, is not the only factor that makes an EC oil, or makes such oils unsuitable in the eyes of the vehicle manufacturer. Note that the reformulated Mobil 1 Gold Cap (formerly Red Cap) now contains more moly and slightly less ZDDP than it used to, and yet is NOT an EC oil. There are any number of people happily using it at this moment. The JASO standards require the oil remain above a specified coefficient of friction that is above that required for qualifying an oil as API EC. Your clutch, if it's very healthy, may tolerate EC oils, but it may just as easily not.

Anyone can have whatever opinion they like, but my choice to use a JASO MA oil is based on the specific concerns articulated by Honda, Yamaha, and others over the reduction in the boundary lubricants they consider most effective, and on other research I've done myself. The particular oil I choose to use has levels of both phosphorus and zinc at levels over 30% higher than Gold Cap, using the same base stocks. As I pointed out, this fact won't matter as long as no component of the engine ever experiences boundary level lubrication, but you can't be sure that it won't, and the extra protection is worth it to me. If you choose to ignore the issue, or feel that another formula provides protection you consider adequate, then go right ahead.

If you do regular oil changes as we all should, you are never going to reach, not even close, the breakdown point of ANY oil.

Regular and frequent are different things. A consideration not to be overlooked is the fact that by far most automotive multigrades have fair to poor viscosity durability when used in high shear applications such as a motorcycle transmission. The additives that allow a light base stock to perform as a heavier oil at high temperatures are relatively quite fragile, and become physically shredded in such applications, to the extent that the oil can lose 50% or more of its high temperature viscosity in a matter of just a few hours. Because synthetics usually have base oils that already have a high viscosity index, they require less of these additives to function as a multigrade, and so tend in general to be less susceptible to viscosity shear down. Base oil composition is not the only thing that improves shear resistance, however. Some viscosity index improvers are more durable than others. One of the best oils available in this regard that I am aware of is a synthetic/mineral oil blend. Also note that Dexron ATF, even at a viscosity of only 7wt., has the same shear resistance as GL-4 gear lubes.

For a real eye opener, run a used sample of your favorite slippery stuff, retrieved at your typical oil change interval, down to the local fleet service house and have an analysis done, with particular attention to the measured viscosity at 100 degrees C. You'll be surprised.

Here's an update, BTW, for Yamalube users. YamaLube 4, 4-FS, 4M, 4-S, and 4T, are now listed by JASO as compliant with MA.

http://www.jalos.or..../4T_EV_LIST.pdf

  • SUnruh

Posted October 04, 2005 - 11:41 AM

#17

For a real eye opener, run a used sample of your favorite slippery stuff, retrieved at your typical oil change interval, down to the local fleet service house and have an analysis done, with particular attention to the measured viscosity at 100 degrees C. You'll be surprised.


this is not directed at gray, but in response to his post.

starting back in feburary of 2001, i have used Blackstone Labs 14 times now (southwest labs twice) and the proof is in the oil analysis reports.
my 1/4 liter motor with the transmission of oils demise can shear the dickens out of (all but 2) oils in as little as 32 miles. mobil 1, toast. amsoil cycle, toast. royal purple, toast. valvoline cycle, toast. castrol cycle, toast. it is a long and distinguised list of high dollar (and supposedly high quality) oils that i have shreaded in no time. sure, the 250f cranks a few more rpms than its big brother, but doesn't put the same pressure on the gears (which are smaller) of the 4xx line. bigger (ie wider) gears and more torque equal more area the shear the oil to death with.

use a name brand oil and change it often. every 5 hours should be about the time it has sheared so far out of grade that it is toast.

  • fast426

Posted October 04, 2005 - 01:00 PM

#18

Seems to be a pattern of us disagreeing, grayracer.
I completely disagree with you here. You are passing along myth and legend.
But don't feel lonely, it seem the "Energy Conserving" myth is followed by the majority of bikers...and why? Because they get information thrown at them all the time like this.

However, it is unwarranted.
If your wet clutch slips, it is more than likely due to an already existing problem. The clutch plates may already be burnt, or there is basket notching or a spring issue. But, it will not MORE THAN LIKELY be the choice of oil
That simply isn't so.
Telling folks to completly steer away from "Energy Conserving" oils is simply passing on bad info.

Another myth is that we need to run motorcycle specific oils in our engines. That is a total load of marketing crap. But, it seems that many are afraid NOT to take the advice. It's your money...and the oil mfg wants more of it. So he make you think his moto specific oil is greatly superior to the lower priced, off-the-shelf oils. It JUST ISN'T SO!

The facts are that you can use just about any bargain priced oil and will be fine. It is the frequency of change that is far more important than oil choice.
And yes, you may well find that one oil may contribute to the shifting not feeling like you want it, but that is due more to the viscosity of the fluid than anything else.

OK...I'm full of BS....EC oils are bad for your clutch and you should never use them. Especially those that contain molybdenum!
But wait....Mobil MX4T (motorcycle specific synthetic) contains moly! OH MY GOSH, how can that be?
And the similar Redline oil has over three times the moly of MX4T...yet there are no reports of it causing any clutch issues at all. How can that be?

Folks...you have been fed a load of bullensheisen, that is perpetuated ad infinitum.

How's it taste??? :banghead:

Clutch plates don't nessassaily just slip and burn from improper oil. They can swell, and they also can deteriorate into the oil due to the clutches never being designed to be bathed in one of their hundreds of chemicals (friction modifiers) that are in the improper oil. That's all a person needs is friction material floating around in the oil :banghead: !. I say just use the recommended oil. We spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on go-fast goodies, and then to cheap out on the oil seems crazy to me.
I've seen lists of additives that are in synthetic oil as long as ny arm. I'm guessing one of those may not make the clutches happy.
As mentioned, shear stability is also a huge problem.

  • Ga426owner

Posted October 04, 2005 - 01:13 PM

#19

OH God another lube debate :banghead: .....whatever u use just change it often...I wonder if Whale Blubber oil is safe? :banghead:

  • fast426

Posted October 04, 2005 - 01:24 PM

#20

OH God another lube debate :banghead: .....whatever u use just change it often...I wonder if Whale Blubber oil is safe? :banghead:

Ha ha ha. I remember a British T.V. show that put "chip oil"(used deep fryer oil) in an old honda. It never did blow up!





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