chain cleaning help


64 replies to this topic
  • Ga426owner

Posted August 24, 2005 - 05:18 AM

#41

Ga.

This isn't about the chain stuff at all. It was his condescending statement about farmer's moly mix. I'm over it now, just tired of the stereotyping.

I realize that....it is all in fun ain't it? I never take the opinions or statements made by a lot of people here personally.....I have met a ton here that are "legends in their own mind" and you know us southern farmers... :D

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 24, 2005 - 06:01 AM

#42

I ran out of lube (glad of it, because it sucked), but someone gave me some off brand stuff I've never heard of, called Next Generation. It has Moly and PTFE and it seems to work very well. Dirt doesn't jump off of the track on to it, it cleans off easily and it seems to be there til the ride is over. Anyway, in a year I never had to adjust my Regina chain. Has anyone else ever used this stuff?


greyracer,
Sure I'm biased. But that does not change the facts that I have stated. It's not me making up theorum and spouting it off...it's textbook tribology that I am reffering to.
Chain lube mfg's have missed the boat...plain and simple. We are providing a product that suits the application better than any petroleum lube on the market. Bar none.
But we aren't the ony ones providing a better product...I'd put up our competitors Shaeffers, Amsoil, Honda, or Farmer Johns MolyMix against any petroleum or wax moto lube on the market.


biznet,
It's like this, pal...
When you let your emotions get the best of you, it tends to make you look like an ass in the longrun. You have went out of your way to run your gator on this one, but you hace NO idea what you are talking about.

Here's the deal, in case you care.
I saw what you posted about the moly/teflon lube you tried. I did not comment, as I have never heard of the specific brand name you mentioned.
What you may not realize is, that I have been touting the benefits of using a lubricant that utilizes molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) as it's main source of lubrication. One of the lubes that my partner and I mfg and sell is a dry-film lubricant that uses a solvent carrier to carry moly to the friction points to protect from friction...EXACTLY LIKE THE LUBE YOU FOUND DOES.

The lube you found...was probably obtained from either a Walmart type store, and auto parts store, or a farm implement dealer/store. These places typically carry that type of lube, but most of these generic type moly lubes are not as fortified, as chain specific lubes are, with other products that are beneficial like corrosion inhibitors.

As you can clearly see, and as you should have clearly seen before you opened your rude piehole, is that I was NOT making fun of using such a product. I happen to know for a fact that you had good luck with the lube you found. Hell, it's what I have been trying to relay to people in the first place. Fluid film lubrication sucks for motorcycle chains of any venue. Dry-film lubrication has replaced the old school way of thinking in the industrial world. Most of the big timers in industry understand what I have been saying here about dry-films. They realize that simply using the proper lubricant will help their equipment last far longer than it did when using petroleum type (fluid film) type lubricants.
I am simply providing the same information to the moto world that the industrial world has already digested, tested, and found that I was totally spot-on with my recommendations.

My actual comment was that I would place any of my competitors products up against any of the conventioanl fluid film products on the market, including any sort of moly that typically comes from a farm implement store.
My mentioning the farmer johns moly mix had NOTHING to do with what you stated. I have known for probably 2 decades that farm supply stores typically carry this sort of lubricant, as it has been used in the lubrication of chains on farm implements for years...hell it seems the farmers have went far beyond what the motorcycle world has when it comes to being knowlegable in lubrication.

I suggest you re-read, and re-think.
You have went out of your way to spout off some very serious stuff there.
Instead of contiunuing to make yourslef look stupid, you should really be apologizing to me. I in NO WAY was refering to anything you said, nor was I being condesending to you in any shape or fashion.

I think it helps for people to be riled up when you get know-it-all, smoke blowing, meat heads like greyracer that chide the situation along.
He has blown enough smoke here that folks tend to think anything that comes out of his keyboard is gosphel, but I can assure you he has alot to learn, not only in tribology, but dealing with people in general. He is a bad influence on some of you.
NEVER ever go against anything he says or does, hell he has 33 years of proffesional experience,....in what I'm not sure, but he is a pro!

SureBlue,
Take a good look at what has been posted here. Am I being an ******* simply because I differ from what others are saying?
If I present a fact, is it rude of me to do so...or is it rude of the person who states I'm full of it and starts calling names? Even when they bring nothing of substance to the table, no facts, figures, or even a good argument. They simply start running their gators because it doesnt fit with what they thought they knew for years.
I'm not here to sell my lube. I'm only passing on information to the dirt biking community. Is that not what this is here for?

Some people take things wrong...as evident by biznet's obvious blunder.
And take flinlock for another example...I wasn't dissing him one bit. I completely understood that he had mounted his new chain on a new Ironman sprocket. I simply stated that running a chain that is past safe service limit, with a hard rear sprocket, is a dangerous thing to do, as the sprocket will not give you warning when the chain is well worn.
But of course you have rude fools like greyracer who chime in and continue the contempt.
Why does he do this? I'll tell you why...he has blown smoke up the arses of folks here so long, and has them believing he is the savior of all things moto.
ANyone who goes against the grain of anything he says or does is the enemy, in his feeble mind.
But I can tell you that I'm probably as old if not older than this creep, and have seen and done things with machinery that he can't even imagine, while he's laying on his creeper lubing ball joints.
And as always he will throw mud in a thread, then try to be the final word and post something that resembles him knowing what he is talking about. Take his last post about elasticity of sideplates. He is almost right, but he is almost wrong as well. It is clear to me that he is providing information about elasticity that he got anecdotaly. I know this because his statements about this issue are not factual and flawed.
But of course he states these items as if they were fact. And many buy it.

:D oh well...

  • Jetsprint2

Posted August 24, 2005 - 06:37 AM

#43

biznet,
It's like this, pal...
When you let your emotions get the best of you, it tends to make you look like an ass in the longrun. You have went out of your way to run your gator on this one, but you hace NO idea what you are talking about.

Here's the deal, in case you care.
I saw what you posted about the moly/teflon lube you tried. I did not comment, as I have never heard of the specific brand name you mentioned.
What you may not realize is, that I have been touting the benefits of using a lubricant that utilizes molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) as it's main source of lubrication. One of the lubes that my partner and I mfg and sell is a dry-film lubricant that uses a solvent carrier to carry moly to the friction points to protect from friction...EXACTLY LIKE THE LUBE YOU FOUND DOES.

The lube you found...was probably obtained from either a Walmart type store, and auto parts store, or a farm implement dealer/store. These places typically carry that type of lube, but most of these generic type moly lubes are not as fortified, as chain specific lubes are, with other products that are beneficial like corrosion inhibitors.

As you can clearly see, and as you should have clearly seen before you opened your rude piehole, is that I was NOT making fun of using such a product. I happen to know for a fact that you had good luck with the lube you found. Hell, it's what I have been trying to relay to people in the first place. Fluid film lubrication sucks for motorcycle chains of any venue. Dry-film lubrication has replaced the old school way of thinking in the industrial world. Most of the big timers in industry understand what I have been saying here about dry-films. They realize that simply using the proper lubricant will help their equipment last far longer than it did when using petroleum type (fluid film) type lubricants.
I am simply providing the same information to the moto world that the industrial world has already digested, tested, and found that I was totally spot-on with my recommendations.

My actual comment was that I would place any of my competitors products up against any of the conventioanl fluid film products on the market, including any sort of moly that typically comes from a farm implement store.
My mentioning the farmer johns moly mix had NOTHING to do with what you stated. I have known for probably 2 decades that farm supply stores typically carry this sort of lubricant, as it has been used in the lubrication of chains on farm implements for years...hell it seems the farmers have went far beyond what the motorcycle world has when it comes to being knowlegable in lubrication.

I suggest you re-read, and re-think.
You have went out of your way to spout off some very serious stuff there.
Instead of contiunuing to make yourslef look stupid, you should really be apologizing to me. I in NO WAY was refering to anything you said, nor was I being condesending to you in any shape or fashion.

I think it helps for people to be riled up when you get know-it-all, smoke blowing, meat heads like greyracer that chide the situation along.
He has blown enough smoke here that folks tend to think anything that comes out of his keyboard is gosphel, but I can assure you he has alot to learn, not only in tribology, but dealing with people in general. He is a bad influence on some of you.
NEVER ever go against anything he says or does, hell he has 33 years of proffesional experience,....in what I'm not sure, but he is a pro!

SureBlue,
Take a good look at what has been posted here. Am I being an ******* simply because I differ from what others are saying?
If I present a fact, is it rude of me to do so...or is it rude of the person who states I'm full of it and starts calling names? Even when they bring nothing of substance to the table, no facts, figures, or even a good argument. They simply start running their gators because it doesnt fit with what they thought they knew for years.
I'm not here to sell my lube. I'm only passing on information to the dirt biking community. Is that not what this is here for?

Some people take things wrong...as evident by biznet's obvious blunder.
And take flinlock for another example...I wasn't dissing him one bit. I completely understood that he had mounted his new chain on a new Ironman sprocket. I simply stated that running a chain that is past safe service limit, with a hard rear sprocket, is a dangerous thing to do, as the sprocket will not give you warning when the chain is well worn.
But of course you have rude fools like greyracer who chime in and continue the contempt.
Why does he do this? I'll tell you why...he has blown smoke up the arses of folks here so long, and has them believing he is the savior of all things moto.
ANyone who goes against the grain of anything he says or does is the enemy, in his feeble mind.
But I can tell you that I'm probably as old if not older than this creep, and have seen and done things with machinery that he can't even imagine, while he's laying on his creeper lubing ball joints.
And as always he will throw mud in a thread, then try to be the final word and post something that resembles him knowing what he is talking about. Take his last post about elasticity of sideplates. He is almost right, but he is almost wrong as well. It is clear to me that he is providing information about elasticity that he got anecdotaly. I know this because his statements about this issue are not factual and flawed.
But of course he states these items as if they were fact. And many buy it.

:D oh well...

Wow, you have a lot of time on your hands.

  • biznet1

Posted August 24, 2005 - 06:38 AM

#44

biznet,
It's like this, pal...
When you let your emotions get the best of you, it tends to make you look like an ass in the longrun. You have went out of your way to run your gator on this one, but you hace NO idea what you are talking about.

Here's the deal, in case you care.
I saw what you posted about the moly/teflon lube you tried. I did not comment, as I have never heard of the specific brand name you mentioned.
What you may not realize is, that I have been touting the benefits of using a lubricant that utilizes molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) as it's main source of lubrication. One of the lubes that my partner and I mfg and sell is a dry-film lubricant that uses a solvent carrier to carry moly to the friction points to protect from friction...EXACTLY LIKE THE LUBE YOU FOUND DOES.

The lube you found...was probably obtained from either a Walmart type store, and auto parts store, or a farm implement dealer/store. These places typically carry that type of lube, but most of these generic type moly lubes are not as fortified, as chain specific lubes are, with other products that are beneficial like corrosion inhibitors.

As you can clearly see, and as you should have clearly seen before you opened your rude piehole, is that I was NOT making fun of using such a product. I happen to know for a fact that you had good luck with the lube you found. Hell, it's what I have been trying to relay to people in the first place. Fluid film lubrication sucks for motorcycle chains of any venue. Dry-film lubrication has replaced the old school way of thinking in the industrial world. Most of the big timers in industry understand what I have been saying here about dry-films. They realize that simply using the proper lubricant will help their equipment last far longer than it did when using petroleum type (fluid film) type lubricants.
I am simply providing the same information to the moto world that the industrial world has already digested, tested, and found that I was totally spot-on with my recommendations.

My actual comment was that I would place any of my competitors products up against any of the conventioanl fluid film products on the market, including any sort of moly that typically comes from a farm implement store.
My mentioning the farmer johns moly mix had NOTHING to do with what you stated. I have known for probably 2 decades that farm supply stores typically carry this sort of lubricant, as it has been used in the lubrication of chains on farm implements for years...hell it seems the farmers have went far beyond what the motorcycle world has when it comes to being knowlegable in lubrication.

I suggest you re-read, and re-think.
You have went out of your way to spout off some very serious stuff there.
Instead of contiunuing to make yourslef look stupid, you should really be apologizing to me. I in NO WAY was refering to anything you said, nor was I being condesending to you in any shape or fashion.

I think it helps for people to be riled up when you get know-it-all, smoke blowing, meat heads like greyracer that chide the situation along.
He has blown enough smoke here that folks tend to think anything that comes out of his keyboard is gosphel, but I can assure you he has alot to learn, not only in tribology, but dealing with people in general. He is a bad influence on some of you.
NEVER ever go against anything he says or does, hell he has 33 years of proffesional experience,....in what I'm not sure, but he is a pro!

SureBlue,
Take a good look at what has been posted here. Am I being an ******* simply because I differ from what others are saying?
If I present a fact, is it rude of me to do so...or is it rude of the person who states I'm full of it and starts calling names? Even when they bring nothing of substance to the table, no facts, figures, or even a good argument. They simply start running their gators because it doesnt fit with what they thought they knew for years.
I'm not here to sell my lube. I'm only passing on information to the dirt biking community. Is that not what this is here for?

Some people take things wrong...as evident by biznet's obvious blunder.
And take flinlock for another example...I wasn't dissing him one bit. I completely understood that he had mounted his new chain on a new Ironman sprocket. I simply stated that running a chain that is past safe service limit, with a hard rear sprocket, is a dangerous thing to do, as the sprocket will not give you warning when the chain is well worn.
But of course you have rude fools like greyracer who chime in and continue the contempt.
Why does he do this? I'll tell you why...he has blown smoke up the arses of folks here so long, and has them believing he is the savior of all things moto.
ANyone who goes against the grain of anything he says or does is the enemy, in his feeble mind.
But I can tell you that I'm probably as old if not older than this creep, and have seen and done things with machinery that he can't even imagine, while he's laying on his creeper lubing ball joints.
And as always he will throw mud in a thread, then try to be the final word and post something that resembles him knowing what he is talking about. Take his last post about elasticity of sideplates. He is almost right, but he is almost wrong as well. It is clear to me that he is providing information about elasticity that he got anecdotaly. I know this because his statements about this issue are not factual and flawed.
But of course he states these items as if they were fact. And many buy it.

:D oh well...

Look. I'm not an unreasonable person, so I will choose to believe that you didn't mean anything and didn't direct it at me, and considering the things that I said, I will disregard the "rude piehole" statement. I probably wouldn't have interpreted it that way, if it weren't for some of the other comments that you made to others. I don't think I'm in the minority here. But, with that said, I do apologize.

  • DaveJ

Posted August 24, 2005 - 08:24 AM

#45

I don't know if it will have any effect on the "debate", but chain "stretch" takes two forms. One is that the side plates actually elastically stretch to a longer than manufactured dimension.



But do you think a chain/sprockets generates heat, and if so, is it enough to soften the metal, and if so, would a lube help curtail the heat...therefore, could one lube prevent heat build-up more than another?

  • SureBlue

Posted August 24, 2005 - 11:54 AM

#46

SureBlue,
Take a good look at what has been posted here. Am I being an ******* simply because I differ from what others are saying?
If I present a fact, is it rude of me to do so...or is it rude of the person who states I'm full of it and starts calling names? Even when they bring nothing of substance to the table, no facts, figures, or even a good argument. They simply start running their gators because it doesnt fit with what they thought they knew for years.
I'm not here to sell my lube. I'm only passing on information to the dirt biking community. Is that not what this is here for?


Dear Sir,
please allow me to present the following:
1. I never offended or called you names and I'm sorry in case someone did, who knows why, maybe you can tell me.
2. You questioned every bit of my knowledge on the subject and called my opinion a bold statement based on guessing even though I presented only a good argument based on my experiences.
3. I never questioned your knowledge nor your product and yes, we all absolutely appreciate any information being passed to our community. It is also obvious, that grayracer has been very active in that respect, and we all appreciate his contribution and the way and style he delivers the info which is again based on his years of experience.
4. You are not an *** simply because you differ from what others are saying, but it is the way how you do it.

After having followed the discussions around the chain cleaning and lubrication now and earlier, it is very obvious that you have an attitude problem, and I'm honestly sorry to say you that. Even with my limited knowledge of the english language (merely based on studies) I can read between the lines in your posts that only you have the knowledge on the subject and all others are merely guessing.
Having said this I wish you all the best, I'm out of this now.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 24, 2005 - 12:23 PM

#47

But do you think a chain/sprockets generates heat, and if so, is it enough to soften the metal, and if so, would a lube help curtail the heat...therefore, could one lube prevent heat build-up more than another?

When and wherever friction exists, and it exists everywhere, there is heat generated by it. But the heat generated by a chain with anything close to appropriate lubrication is about as far as it can get from being able to alter the character of the metals used in the chain. Long before that, the lube would start to smoke, then burn off, along with the o-rings, if any.

For a chain to generate anything like that kind of heat, it would have to absorb a very significant amount of the engine's horsepower.

Any lube that works better than another would reduce the heat created by such friction, yes.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 24, 2005 - 03:16 PM

#48

[quote name='DigilubeJay']greyracer, I'm tired of arguing with you.[/QUOTE]
How wonderful. Now you can focus on spelling my name right.
[quote name='DigilubeJay']You have a lot to learn in your old age[/QUOTE]
I certainly do. According to what I’ve read, the last time the collected body of human knowledge was small enough to have been known by one person was in the year 625 A.D.
[quote name='DigilubeJay']And your 33 years are as a proffesional what? Auto mechanic?[/QUOTE]
Yes, as a matter of fact. Professional M/C Builder for 8 years, Certified (by two different U.S. Automakers and the ASE) Master Automotive Technician for 25 more (a Knowledgeable person such as yourself should be aware that chains are used quite frequently automotive engines, as long as you're hung up on that). Add 10-15 more years of motorcycle, automotive and marine experience outside of that.

But you should know that. I’ve answered the same question several times. You apparently find something disdainful in that:
[quote name='DigilubeJay']and have seen and done things with machinery that he can't even imagine, while he's laying on his creeper lubing ball joints.[/QUOTE]
Let me first assure you that you don’t have the ability to exceed the bounds of my imagination, and that my life experience is not confined to my career. This is but one example of why some people conclude that you are arrogant. While there are people in the trade that do only lube work, and some of them need supervision to accomplish even that, there are many more who are far more qualified. What exactly do you disdain in a person with the ability to diagnose and repair a machine consisting of a complex combination of mechanical components, advanced electrical systems, hydraulic operating and control systems, HVAC systems, and microprocessor electronic control systems integrated into virtually every major system of the vehicle? Can you do that?

And you certainly get worked up, don’t you? Let’s see what it’s about this time. I made the statement, and several others agreed, that the OEM chain delivered on a YZ450F is substandard to the point that it cannot meet a reasonable expectation of serviceability. You disagreed, saying that:
[quote name='DigilubeJay']… if you use the proper lubricant, you can get many hours of life out of that stock chain.[/QUOTE]
…and further, that:

[quote name='DigilubeJay']99% of the moto specific chain lubes out there...including PJ1, Maxima, Spectro, Silkolene, etc.etc.... are crap.[/QUOTE]
Well, let’s grant that you’re entitled to your opinion on chain lubes, even when it differs from the experiences of large numbers of people, and even if I think you could have presented the premise in a less belligerant way.

Your problem with me this time seems to be that I challenged the assertion that such an inferior chain could be saved from it inevitable demise by any sort of lubrication regimen. I also made a point to state that:
[quote name='grayracer513']Your points on the mechanics of lubrication are well taken.[/QUOTE]
Nevertheless, you disregarded the fact that I said this, and continued with your response as if I and others who took the same position had assailed the validity of everything you have ever said.

Your response to Flintlock28 demonstrates again the same tendency to overlook the actual words used, and to substitute your own perception of the writer's context:
[quote name='flintlock28']..the stock chain just doesn't cut the mustard. I bought my Yz 450f (2004) used with about 45 or 50 hours (trail ridden only) on the kid's family 40 acres. The kid told me he had already removed a link, and it was getting close to having another removed. I decided to be cheap, and kept it on there with very diligent maintenance: …I just went the proper method, and replaced the sprockets with Ironman brand, and used a very nice Regina "O" ring chain. If you get a new chain quickly, you won't need to replace the sprocket's and save yourself some money.....Don[/QUOTE]
To which your response was:
[quote name='DigilubeJay']Allowing your chain to get that long while having an Ironman rear is a very dangerous situation.[/QUOTE]
If, as you contend, you were aware of the fact that the worn chain and the new steel sprocket were never used together, you should work on expressing yourself with more clarity. Don and I were not the only ones who “misunderstood” you.

Other responses from this thread alone support the contention that you are arrogant and condescending. You say:
[quote name='DigilubeJay']You neeed to have a little bit of knowledge on a subject before you make bold statements.
[/QUOTE]
Others read:
“You have less than a little knowledge of this subject, and your statements are poorly supported and contentious.”
[quote name='DigilubeJay']I am simply providing the same information to the moto world that the industrial world has already digested,[/QUOTE]
“I have information that you do not, because you are a member of an inferior community; one which has not learned what the industrial world already knows.”
[quote name='DigilubeJay']and as you should have clearly seen before you opened your rude piehole[/QUOTE]
I like this particular one because apart from expressing that the person you speak to has failed to do what was expected of him as a human, and calling his manners into question, it descends to schoolyard name calling, whether you initiated it or not.

And then, there is your treatment of me, personally. Your words:
[quote name='DigilubeJay']of course you have rude fools like greyracer

in his feeble mind.

But I can tell you that I'm probably as old if not older than this creep, and have seen and done things with machinery that he can't even imagine, while he's laying on his creeper lubing ball joints.

I know this because his statements about this issue are not factual and flawed. [/QUOTE]
You have now called me impolite, a fool, feeble minded, a creep, unimaginative, a smoke-blowing meathead, a mud slinger, and a bad influence, among other things. Libelous? Most certainly so, at least some of it. What is my reaction to that supposed to be, exactly? Your statement that I am feeble minded, and that my facts are wrong, absent as they are of any supporting evidence, is a gratuitous assertion. That sort of thing, together with the denigration and the name-calling are elements of a pissing match, not a debate. Remember what you said about knowledgeable people. You see that sort of thing from people who have lost the point, yet cannot concede.

And what have I said about you? That you are incompetent? Underqualified? A feeble-minded mudslinging meathead? No,....Oh, I know; that you were wrong on one point. I must have lost my feeble-minded head. How foolish of me.

I agree that biznet1 misread what you said as an attack on him, but it was presented in a very thorny wrapper, and while I admire the fact that he could apologize for over-reacting, I see no reason for him to retract the claim that you are arrogant. You are.

You sit, as you are, protected by your relative anonymity on the Internet and spout vitriolic epithets, knowing you face no consequences for it. Some would have a lot of unkind things to say about that. Do yourself an enormous favor, if ever you meet me; don’t introduce yourself.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 24, 2005 - 09:29 PM

#49

Look. I'm not an unreasonable person, so I will choose to believe that you didn't mean anything and didn't direct it at me, and considering the things that I said, I will disregard the "rude piehole" statement. I probably wouldn't have interpreted it that way, if it weren't for some of the other comments that you made to others. I don't think I'm in the minority here. But, with that said, I do apologize.

biznet,
You called me an arrogant SOB. Surely you can appreciate the restraint in using something as mild as "rude piehole" in my reply. That was pretty strong words you used. But, I accept your apology.
And if you can point out where I was unfairly rude to anyone previously, please do so. I will rarely if ever start calling anyone names unless it is in reply to previous name calling.
I also understand that some folks take great offence when you blalently disagree with what they post in public. But some are over sensitive in my estimation.
This isn't lead by the hand kidergarten here...if you have the sack to post something as a matter of fact, and someone disputes your info, don't call them names and get all pissy over your poor little feelings, man up and call them on their info. Perhpas with some logical discussion and/or debate, there can be some light shed.

If I'm not mistaken, the past few years Yamaha has had an OEM deal with D.I.D. for stock chains. Yes, many OEM deals end up with equipment that does not meet the standards of other top-shelf aftermarket products.
But, D.I.D. did not go to the metal thrift store, and then buy some machinery that was outdated years ago with worn out tooling, to produce the chains they are providing Yamaha. They may well be providing the lowest tier produt they mfg, but that is far from the crappy stuff you would get from a farm implement store on a 50ft. roll. Thier lowest tier chain is probably better than most mfg's bottom rung stuff.

And what I was trying to stress is that you CAN get much more life out of these chains than what conventional wisdom would lead you to believe. Yes, I hear all the stories about how junky these chains are. But...I also hear stories of folks having troubles with top of the line chains and sprockets as well. The folks who have problems keeping top shelf stuff alive are missing the boat on at least one or more points of proper chain care.
I contend that the same situation exists on these less than favorable chains. It's just that these cheaper chains will not withstand any missed points.
They go south fast when any point is missed, including the choice of lubricant.

The challange has been put out there to make a stock Yamaha chain last at least 50 hours and still be within servicable limits. Piece of cake.
It is a doable thing. IF proper lubrication is provided that will protect from wear during the whole fifty hours. Yes, the sideplates will elongate at first, But the elongating from plate elasticity will subside very soon.
Heck ALL chains used to have plates that needed an intitial stretch period. It has only been a short period of time that any mfg's have been proof stretching chains after build. (Proof stretching means that the manufactured chain strands are placed under a straight line pull with a force equal to at least 60% of the chains sideplates ultimate tensile strength) Most still don't do it.

After the intial stretch period that the OEM, and most other chains for that matter, go through, the longevity is fully dependent on the lubrication protection you provide the wear points of the chain. I contend that most all popular brands of petroleum or wax chain lubes cannot cut it. This is not due to the fact that my opinion may be colored by the fact that I market chain lube, it is from lots of testing of these products with testing equipment designed to address these issues, as well as testing in the field.
I am not pulling this stuff out of the hat. I only state it as fact because it IS fact. If that makes me arrogant and condesending, then so be it.

BTW...the man who posted this thread was concerend about chain cleaning.
If a person uses a dry-film type lubricant on their chains, they will never have a cleaning problem again. I have yet to see a dry-film user go back to the old way of doing things once they discovered the proper way.

  • DaveJ

Posted August 24, 2005 - 10:09 PM

#50

I have yet to see a dry-film user go back to the old way of doing things once they discovered the proper way.



So is this the single advantage to using dry film? Anything else?

Ya know, I got excited about this thread when it first started, knowing that it may lead to some useful information about what others knew about lubes and such.

For a business man, you missed a great opportunity DigiLube.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Jetsprint2

Posted August 24, 2005 - 11:55 PM

#51

Wow, all my dudes are getting in a discussion in this thread. :D :D :D :eek:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 25, 2005 - 06:53 AM

#52

So is this the single advantage to using dry film? Anything else?

Ya know, I got excited about this thread when it first started, knowing that it may lead to some useful information about what others knew about lubes and such.

For a business man, you missed a great opportunity DigiLube.

Dave,
I will be the first to admit that I have a personality that won't allow me to be the best salesman in the world. I was never put up to be a salesman in the first place. I am by nature a technician, and am much more concerned with real world issues, rather than the smoke blowing and shady dealings of salepersons.
There have been many occasions throughout my carreer that I have actually talked a customer out of buying a certain product or item, simply because I didn't believe that the item they wanted to purchase was what they really needed to do to fix the problem. First cardinal rule of a salesman, "if the customer is wanting to buy, let them".
I'm simply not put up that way. I'd much rather address a customer's problem head on and try to find the best way to solve it, rather than make sure a puchase of my products is involved. Especially when the purchase of the product is not the real answer to the problem.

But, I don't think I missed the boat here on offering up the advantages of changing lubrication schedules. Yes, there have been some sidetracks going on...and I am partly to blame for not considering peoples emotions enough I spose.

But as far as the advantages of using a dry-film type lubriant...here are some advantages to consider:
1) Dry-film lube is normally very thin bodied fluid. Thin as water. And it is easy to apply. All you need is one drop of dry-film at every friction point.

2) Dry-film penetrates like no petroleum fluid can. Many lubes set up before they can even reach the friction point within the chain. Dry-films are carried by light solvents, and when you see a drop hit the metal, it will immediately spread out to every available surface, carrying the lubricating products to the friction points with speed and tenacity.

3) Once dry-film has deposited the lubricating products to the friction points, the carrier will evaporate, leaving the chain looking "unlubed", but in reality it is being completely protected at the wear points, and is not a wet and sticky dirt magnet, like most ALL conventional chain lubes are.

4) The light solvent carrier of dry-films also serves two other purposes. One, it serves as a water dispersant, which means you can do away with the step of spraying a water dispersant after cleaning. The carrier will serve as a water dispersant and drive any remaining water out by simply applying it.
Two, the solvent also cleans the metal surfaces of debris as it is being applied. So, even though you may need to lube before you are able to clean...say at the midpoint of a harescramble...you can apply the dry-film to even a dirty chain, as the penetrating solvent will make it to the friction points and clean out the metal asperities on it's way there. Afer cleaning out the microspopic areas of the metal surface, the dry-film deposits the lubricant in place of where the dirt was.

5) Dry-films that use molybdenum disulfide (MoS2 or "Moly") as the main lubricant, provide a much greater ability to handle shock load than any petroleum or wax based lube on the market, bar none.

6) Dry-film goes MUCH further than just about any other lubricant. You can probably well lube 6 or 7 chains with just one ounce of dry-film. You will more than likely use much more than one ounce of just about any conventional spray petroleum, on a single chain.
Count how many lubes you get out of a can of Maxima.

7) Dry-film uses either polar solids or chemo-absorbed materials for lubricaity.
These products adhere themselves to the metal surfaces atomically. They will protect the metal surfaces far longer than petroleum or wax can. The nature of the moly or chemicals is that they are attracted to the metal surfaces and like little magnets, stay there.
Once there, these products protect at the boundery rhelm, which means that they can protect the metal surfaces even when there is complete metal to metal contact of the items. Petroleum and wax CANNOT DO THIS.
Petroleum lubricant depend on providing a fluid film between the metal surfaces, actually seperating the two, and not letting them eat at each other.
If you cannot maintain a constant thickness of at least .001" of oil, then the lube will fail and metal will be eaten away with every pass.

8) As the polar solids or chemo-absorbed products are p[olar, and as such have a natural affinity to staying put on the surface, water washout is of little concern to dry-films. It is of big concern to petroleumtype lubes, as there is no way the oil can stay put when being forced out by water. The answer by most lube mfg's was to add tackifier to help keep it in place and resist water. But, we all know what problems the addition of tacky goo creates. They actually created more problems by trying to fix the original problems...but what do they care...they can keep selling inferior lube, while you blame the chain failure on cheap equipment , rather than bad lube schedule.

9) Dry-film by it's nature is very easy to clean. It will not make a sticky gooey mess ever. All you need is a little cleaner and a quick spray from a garden hose to have your chain looking like brand new.
Mind you, you will not get all of the moly off the chain and sprocket when you clean it. The moly tends to want to stay put even during a hard wash.
But this is a good thing. You wont witness any gooey mess from the remaining moly, only the metal may be slightly discolored.

  • DaveJ

Posted August 25, 2005 - 09:50 AM

#53

Well, I think the dry approach is a great option and I think I will eventually take this route.

I have also noticed that CRC makes three dry lubricants, Dry Moly Lube, Dry Glide, and Dry Graphic Lube.

Have you had any experience with these, or thoughts on how they might compare more traditional lubes?

DaveJ

  • DigilubeJay

Posted August 25, 2005 - 07:26 PM

#54

CRC Dry Moly lube should not be used on ring chains. It is a very moly rich lube, but the solvent carrier is very harsh. It also lacks anti-corrossion additives and synthetic oils that can keep rings supple. I would place CRC Dry Moly in the farm or industrial service application.

CRC also has a Dry PTFE lube that is basically Teflon with a hexane carrier, and a Dry Graphite lube. Also avoid using either of these products in ring chains. Very harsh carriers.
Teflon is a great lubricant, but it does not stay put as long as Moly does. It tends to be less favorable in a water washout situation than moly is.
Graphite is also a good lubricant, but it cannot carry anywhere near the shock load that molybdenum disulfide can.

I would use the CRC Moly and Teflon lubes before I would use ANY of the petroleum or parrafin based moto specific lubes.
But like I stated, they were not desinged with a motorcycle application in mind, and have not incorporated additives that are beneficial.
The carriers in all of these products exclude them from any use on a ring chain.

  • grayracer513

Posted August 25, 2005 - 07:56 PM

#55

Well, I think the dry approach is a great option and I think I will eventually take this route.

I have also noticed that CRC makes three dry lubricants, Dry Moly Lube, Dry Glide, and Dry Graphic Lube.

Have you had any experience with these, or thoughts on how they might compare more traditional lubes?

DaveJ

Here are a few other things you can consider as well.

On the question of graphite as a chain lube, I would avoid it. Graphite and Moly Disulfide are often confused by the public in general as being somewaht synonomous, probably because they are both seen as a black powder. They are nothing alike. Moly is a relatively soft metallic compound. True graphite is pure carbon, and is very hard. The graphite in most commercial lubricant is in the form of nearly spherical granules, which works well in lightly loaded situations, but under very heavy loads, the granules can break, leaving alot of rough edged, hard particles behind. It can end up causing wear instead of preventing it.

Apart from that, let me offer a couple of counterpoints:

Dry-film penetrates like no petroleum fluid can. Many lubes set up before they can even reach the friction point within the chain. Dry-films are carried by light solvents, and when you see a drop hit the metal, it will immediately spread out to every available surface, carrying the lubricating products to the friction points with speed and tenacity.

The same is true of any sort of spray lubricant, whether it be chain lube, spray grease, whatever. It is all carried by a volitile, usually penetrating "vehicle" solvent. Otherwise, you would have to resort to the now ancient technique of boiling a chain in grease to get it to penetrate into the bushings (DONT try that at home). All of the referred to attributes of this vehicle are commonly found in most good quality lubes.

Dry-film goes MUCH further than just about any other lubricant. You can probably well lube 6 or 7 chains with just one ounce of dry-film. You will more than likely use much more than one ounce of just about any conventional spray petroleum, on a single chain.
Count how many lubes you get out of a can of Maxima.

I use Maxima's Synthetic Chain Guard, as I mentioned earlier. I would probably use half again as much as I currently do if I were not using an O-ring chain, but as it stands, I use about three cans a year, lubing two motorcycles after every ride, or about 4 times a month. So that's what, about 24 uses?

Dry-film uses either polar solids or chemo-absorbed materials for lubricaity.
These products adhere themselves to the metal surfaces atomically. They will protect the metal surfaces far longer than petroleum or wax can. The nature of the moly or chemicals is that they are attracted to the metal surfaces and like little magnets, stay there.
Once there, these products protect at the boundery rhelm, which means that they can protect the metal surfaces even when there is complete metal to metal contact of the items. Petroleum and wax CANNOT DO THIS.
Petroleum lubricant depend on providing a fluid film between the metal surfaces, actually seperating the two, and not letting them eat at each other.
If you cannot maintain a constant thickness of at least .001" of oil, then the lube will fail and metal will be eaten away with every pass.

Moly lubricant does in fact work that way. But so do the anti-wear additives other than MoS2 found in a good engine oil. Looked at under extreme magnification, the smooth ground surface you see as a bearing journal looks more like a part of the Tetons. MoS2, ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate, the most common, and probably the best of several Zinc and Phosphorus based anti-wear agents), and other "boundary" lubricants work by filling in the irregularities of the surface, flattening it, and coming between the surface being lubed and it's mate in the event that the primary lube source should fail. Most commonly, such agants are added to lubricating oils as an emergency lube, a last line of defense in case the oil film is subjected to such pressure that it is squeezed away. In the case of MoS2, it is so effective as a boundary lube, it can be used as a sole source of lubrication, within limits. But it is more effective when used in combination with a fluid lubricant for two reasons: that being that the presence of an oil provides the primary lube source, as well as a fresh supply of new moly platelets to replenish any that are carried off by wear.

If the notion that an oil film must be maintained at .001" to be effective were true, nearly every automotive crankshaft in the world would fail. Auto cranks are typically fit at a clearance of .0015", leaving room for a surrounding layer of oil only .00075" thick. Clearances in rolling element bearings are normally at least that small.

As the polar solids or chemo-absorbed products are p[olar, and as such have a natural affinity to staying put on the surface, water washout is of little concern to dry-films. It is of big concern to petroleumtype lubes, as there is no way the oil can stay put when being forced out by water. The answer by most lube mfg's was to add tackifier to help keep it in place and resist water. But, we all know what problems the addition of tacky goo creates...

That was somewhat true once, but newer synthetic solutions to the washout/flyoff issue have emerged that allow the lube to remain in place without being sticky, at least, not nearly so much as in the past. Obviously, not everyone uses them.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that a really ideal chain lube would be one consisting of a synthetic based, moly bearing grease that dried "clean" like MSCG does, washes of as easily, and provides the extra protection that MoS2 offers. I haven't found anything like that yet, though. I just don't think that there is a great deal of wisdom in depending solely on dry moly. But you should try it if it interests you.

Also keep in mind that if you are using a sealed chain, be it O-ring, X-ring, Z-ring, whatever, the seals that are there to keep the lube in also prevent more lube from getting in, unless you're going to hold open each seal with a tool of some sort as you drip lube into one roller at a time (something I've actually thought about). So, in lubing a sealed chain, you are lubing only the outer roller sleeves and the sprockets, as well as putting a layer of protection over the rings. Note that this "protection" can backfire if you use a sticky lube that gathers a lot of grit around the seals. In the case of sealed chains, there may be some advantage to a dry lube for the exterior, if it could also lube the seals.

Anyway, that's my nickel. Food for thought.

Here's a little more on MoS2:

http://bobistheoilguy.com/moly1.html

And, of possible interest:

http://bobistheoilgu...ubrication.html

  • ripntear

Posted August 26, 2005 - 02:45 AM

#56

Go grayracer. Go grayracer. Go grayracer. Go.
(as i'm humming the tune to speed racer)

  • 00YZ426FMRCD

Posted August 26, 2005 - 05:15 AM

#57

Good God gents.... I never knew a post on chain cleaning could go so far...I somehow feel much more educated, not... :D

  • mnm567

Posted August 26, 2005 - 06:03 AM

#58

I bought a brand spanking new '05 450 and probably put 5 hours on it before I replaced the "worthless" stock chain. I made sure it had the proper slack and a high quality chain lube, which I will not mention in fear of being ridiculed, and noticed the chain actually had enough lateral movement to hit the subframe and begin to remove chunks of aluminum. HUH! great chain. Just look at the earlier posted picture of the two chains side-by-side and you can figure out what happened with mine. Digilube, I have a problem with you questioning the intelligence of grayracer or DaveJ because when I need an intelligent reply to a topic I am struggling to find proper info for, those two are usually there to lend their knowledge of motorcycles. Not you! They are the first two people I look to for help.

BLUEDUDE if you are still reading, have you ever been to haspin acre? Look them up at www.haspinacres.com 750 acres of great terrain. Matt

  • BLUEDUDE

Posted August 26, 2005 - 12:08 PM

#59

BLUEDUDE if you are still reading, have you ever been to haspin acre? Look them up at www.haspinacres.com 750 acres of great terrain. Matt


We were thinking about going there, but instead we went to the badland. We will probably make a trip down there after we hit some of the MX tracks here in michigan :D

  • slappie

Posted August 26, 2005 - 01:13 PM

#60

DigilubeJay,

Why don't you go tell all the salespeople at your company that they are shady and blow smoke all day.

If it weren't for them selling your product, you wouldn't have a job.

It actually sounds like you would make a good salesperson - trying to solve the real problem is something that gets repeat business, not just a one time sale of something that a customer doesn't need.

I agree, there are lots of shady dumba :D s salespeople out there and they give me a bad name.

Just picking on you. I'm a salesperson if you can't tell.

All in good fun. :D





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