Modified XR650 VS. CR500


61 replies to this topic
  • BWB63

Posted June 10, 2005 - 03:39 PM

#21

Yea, the bike makers (Honda) like to use Brake horsepower (bhp) and is read at the fly wheel. So, you buy a bike that is told to you as putting out 55hp uncorked. You find out that it's only 44hp on the dyno. My best Dyno run was 58hp from my 680cc bike. Add the 24~25% and that is over 70bhp. You get a honest Dyno and you would be hard pressed to get more then 60hp out of our bikes. In europe they do come out with crazy dyno numbers like 64~68hp+ but, they are not the same as ours here in the US.

Dyno Page Click Here: :)

http://xr650r.borynack.com/

  • stoo

Posted June 10, 2005 - 03:46 PM

#22

Yea, the bike makers (Honda) like to use Brake horsepower (bhp) and is read at the fly wheel. So, you buy a bike that is told to you as putting out 55hp uncorked. You find out that it's only 44hp on the dyno. My best Dyno run was 58hp from my 680cc bike. Add the 24~25% and that is over 70bhp. You get a honest Dyno and you would be hard pressed to get more then 60hp out of our bikes. In europe they do come out with crazy dyno numbers like 64~68hp+ but, they are not the same as ours here in the US.

Dyno Page Click Here: :)

http://xr650r.borynack.com/


I'm in Europe. :D

Mine was putting out 55 at the wheel on the dyno last year. Since then it's getting a 11:1 piston, stage 1 cam and a flowed head.

I'll be happy with 60. :)

  • smashinz2002

Posted June 10, 2005 - 08:21 PM

#23

Well I don't know about hp numbers and rear wheel hp and all that, but I have posted this before, and will say it again. I have an XR650R and a KX500, and have drag raced them against each other, myself and a good friend who is a very experienced rider. .
We switched bikes twice, and made 5 or 6 straight line runs on a 1500' grass strip.
The KX500 consistently ran off and left my uncorked/jetted 650R every time, and very badly, not just a few bike lengths, but closer to a hundred feet or more.
True, given enough room, the 650R would eventually catch up and overtake the 2-stroke, since it has a slightly higher top speed, but as far as acceleration up to about 90, the 500 2-strokes will win every time, no doubt.
I'm sure the modified 680's would hang much closer however it all comes down to something called 'power to weight ratio', and the lightweight 65hp
2-strokes have the heavy pig beat big time in that area.
Of course an amateur rider on a KX500 is going to get beat by an experienced rider on the 650R. A true comparison has to include equally capable riders of pretty much equal weight.
L.L.

'00 XR650R
'04 KX500

  • BWB63

Posted June 10, 2005 - 08:27 PM

#24

You guy's use a different system over there. Open air box no filter, open exhaust, high voltage coil, race fuel, TM40 pumper carburetor tuned dead on. We get almost fifty horsepower. No matter what we do a stock engine won't go over 50hp. HRC setup is 52hp. I have dyno charts from europe puting out 64hp out of a stock engine on a dyno :) some claiming 68hp with a stock bore :) I think I can get 60hp with race fuel and no air filter, my exhaust is about as open as I can get/or want. I would love to put my bike on one of your dyno's to see what te difference is. I am going to do one more dyno run with my setup once I get some major miles on it. My dyno runs were @ 300 miles after rebuild. Still real tight.

  • XRKING

Posted June 10, 2005 - 08:50 PM

#25

What year CR500 is everyone talking about? I have a 85 CR500 and a 650L. My brother has 650R that is totally uncorked. We have raced all the bikes against each other on the road many times. (We are very competitive over this topic) First let me say the 650L has no chance against any of em. When we race the CR and 650R on the road, my CR will take the R easily up to about 65 - 70. Then they are even for a bit and eventually the 650R takes to cake for top speed. From what I understand the 85 CR500 is not governed and mine has reeds and a new top end. Just to throw this in, I have raced many different years of the CR, (84 -97) and I can beat everyone easily except for the 84. The 84 I raced was stock and air cooled. I thought I would easily win, boy was I wrong. He beat me pretty good. But going back to the 650R vs the CR500, in the dirt the cr can't hook up. So the 650R usually always beats me in the drag.

  • stoo

Posted June 10, 2005 - 11:26 PM

#26

You guy's use a different system over there. Open air box no filter, open exhaust, high voltage coil, race fuel, TM40 pumper carburetor tuned dead on. We get almost fifty horsepower. No matter what we do a stock engine won't go over 50hp. HRC setup is 52hp. I have dyno charts from europe puting out 64hp out of a stock engine on a dyno :D some claiming 68hp with a stock bore :) I think I can get 60hp with race fuel and no air filter, my exhaust is about as open as I can get/or want. I would love to put my bike on one of your dyno's to see what te difference is. I am going to do one more dyno run with my setup once I get some major miles on it. My dyno runs were @ 300 miles after rebuild. Still real tight.


60+hp with a stock bore is either crank figures, or very optimistic, even for a Euro bike. :)

Mine was running a K&N filter, 5x 1" holes drilled in the airbox lid (covered with a course mesh), TM40 carb, full noisy exhaust system (CRD headers, FMF Square core can) to get the 55hp at the wheel.

I wouldn't run mine without an air filter, and have never used race fuel. Not sure about the coil either - I thought the only difference was the lighting circuit?

I've yet to hear of any UK XR's breaking 60rwhp without going 680 or more.


Dyno readings are only really a rough guide anyway - each dyno will read slightly different (some quite dramatically as there's 3 different types of horsepower they can quote their figures in, before you even get to the crank/wheel debate) and the humidity, temperature and air pressure will also have a big effect.

  • BWB63

Posted June 11, 2005 - 08:47 AM

#27

Yes, I have been through all that with the Dyno's. The big change in numbers is changing the dampenning on the dyno. My last dyno run was on a certified, calibrated dyno, climate control, and it was close to the dyno at Edelbrock. Both dynos are at about 500 meters above sea level. 20% humidity, 70f degrees. If the dynamometer is calibrated and climet controled, and they don't mess with the dampenning or the offset, it should be real close to the same. At Dyno Dudes they showed me my bike getting 62hp by changing just the dampening. I wanted honest number so, all I got was 58hp. I will be doing just a tad more to the bike and then some friends and we are going to run our bikes on the dyno once more. The 60hp I was hoping for is with a 680cc engine with race fuel.
Barnum's Baja race bike 680cc, 11:1, stage three cam, bored over edelbrock = 55hp
Mine 680cc, 11:1, bored over Edelbrock, 3mm oversized intake valves, Cam = 58hp


Both ready to ride (filter, pump gas)
If you remove the filter and jet for it you can get another hp sometimes and we tried all of that with a stock engine. We only run it this way on the dyno to see the difference in the air filters (Stock, Uni, none) I think it's a different reading over there but, till we can get the same bike from here to there we will never know.


60+hp with a stock bore is either crank figures, or very optimistic, even for a Euro bike. :)

Mine was running a K&N filter, 5x 1" holes drilled in the airbox lid (covered with a course mesh), TM40 carb, full noisy exhaust system (CRD headers, FMF Square core can) to get the 55hp at the wheel.

I wouldn't run mine without an air filter, and have never used race fuel. Not sure about the coil either - I thought the only difference was the lighting circuit?

I've yet to hear of any UK XR's breaking 60rwhp without going 680 or more.


Dyno readings are only really a rough guide anyway - each dyno will read slightly different (some quite dramatically as there's 3 different types of horsepower they can quote their figures in, before you even get to the crank/wheel debate) and the humidity, temperature and air pressure will also have a big effect.



  • XR/CRDave

Posted June 11, 2005 - 08:48 AM

#28

I read in a recent mag, June 05 DirtRider, that the CR500 motor makes 18HP in just 1500 RPMs in that sweetspot in the midrange, this explains the explosion of power that 500cc 2-strokes put out, this also explains why they are hard to ride because they can't hook up. With traction during a dragrace a 500 is going to be hard to beat by any bike out there, modified or not. Being that I own both, I would think that it would take at least $2k in mods and labor to get a 650 to even run close to a 500 in a dragrace. You could prob buy a nice steel framed 500 for a little more than that and have the same big but lighter ergo feel as the 650 without sacrificing the 650 reliability w/ big motor mods, sure you can mod the motor but to get crazy power it will likely sacrifice the reliability we 650 owners all love. Thats why I have both of them, one for getting crazy and one for doing everything else.

  • qadsan

Posted June 11, 2005 - 09:39 AM

#29

60 RWHP is being done right now with modified CRF450's and it can certainly be done with the XR650R given the right mods.

  • stoo

Posted June 11, 2005 - 10:05 AM

#30

60 RWHP is being done right now with modified CRF450's


I'd quite like a go on one of those. :)

and it can certainly be done with the XR650R given the right mods.


That's the plan. :)

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  • qadsan

Posted June 11, 2005 - 10:33 AM

#31

There's more than one 60HP CRF450 out there, but here's a long time TT'r who has done this and I've been following his mods step by step for some time. It's very impressive IMO. Check out this link for more info.

http://www.thumperta...ad.php?t=263377

If you can rework your 650r head to handle higher RPM and have the engine balanced for smoother operation and a programmable ignition that bypasses the rev limiter and get your RPM up significantly higher in addition to chosing the right cam, higher comp piston, etc, then you should see 60+ RWHP from your 650r. A guy like Ron Hamp (RHC here on TT) has the simulation / modeling software & experience to build a super cam / head combo for our bike, but I believe his focus is more on the 450cc stuff. He's got the 'know-how' if you've got the money :)

  • huntmaster

Posted June 11, 2005 - 02:10 PM

#32

What really separates the CR500R from the XR650R is reliability..
The CR500R has no mechanical weaknesses. It doesn't lose footpegs. It's frame is indestructable (within reason). It doesn't foul plugs. It explodes to life with one kick after a wreck..

???????????
Your kidding right? The bastion of off-road reliability is unreliable? And not torquey enough too I suppose?

I've owned both. The pipe on my XR never broke up and self-destructed, and the cylinder never cracked right through the casting, my fillings weren't vibrated out of my teeth......
Don't get me wrong, the CR500 overall was a great open class two stroke, typical of them in many ways and more reliable then most. But more reliable then an XR? As noted, other comparisons of the two are pure apples and oranges.

  • BWB63

Posted June 11, 2005 - 04:15 PM

#33

60 RWHP is being done right now with modified CRF450's and it can certainly be done with the XR650R given the right mods.


Yes, and like I said, the YZ450F is not far behind that. But, they don't have the torque or the reliability to make it the long run. There was a TRX450R at pismo that was putting out over 60hp on alcohol. He was using nitromethane but, launched that motor. It was amazing to watch them blast off but, not much of a trail riding motor. Weight to torque ratio is another factor. It's not all about horsepower but, also how that horsepower is delivered. 58rwhp @10,000rpm with 33 foot pounds of torque at 5,500 rpm is not the same as 58rwhp at 7,200rpm and 48 foot pounds of torque at 5,500rpm and having a much flatter power curve. even if the 450 engine match the horsepower of the CR500 or XR650R there isn't the torque. A XR650R maybe close to the same power as the CR500 with lots of mod's but, a 450 engine will never be the same as a CR500 engine. Maybe the CRF600 engine can give us the better valve train and combustion camber that is needed to get more horsepower.

  • dahondaboy

Posted February 29, 2008 - 02:35 PM

#34

sorry to bring this amsot dead post back to life but, , back to the original question. (has anyone raced a cr500 and xr650?)
Yes I have both, not new but an 88 cr500 and a 96 xr650
Me and my buddy race and swap bikes and race again and again just for fun all the time. In a flat out drag race the CR is always a few lengths ahead jumping furthur forward with each shift, the ol xr just kind of plays catch up . on the track? hands down the cr500 dominates, the xr is way too bulky and heavy for that, however on tight trails and desert wide open riding I like the xr650 , It has torque and a plush ride, I can ride all day on it and not be fatigued from vibes. plus the xr gets about double the gas mileage of the cr.
But when I want to just go have fun and ride full bore and roost on everything I hop on the cr!

  • BWB63

Posted February 29, 2008 - 02:49 PM

#35

sorry to bring this amsot dead post back to life but, , back to the original question. (has anyone raced a cr500 and xr650?)
Yes I have both, not new but an 88 cr500 and a 96 xr650
Me and my buddy race and swap bikes and race again and again just for fun all the time. In a flat out drag race the CR is always a few lengths ahead jumping furthur forward with each shift, the ol xr just kind of plays catch up . on the track? hands down the cr500 dominates, the xr is way too bulky and heavy for that, however on tight trails and desert wide open riding I like the xr650 , It has torque and a plush ride, I can ride all day on it and not be fatigued from vibes. plus the xr gets about double the gas mileage of the cr.
But when I want to just go have fun and ride full bore and roost on everything I hop on the cr!


I am sure most of us are talking the XR650R modified but, hearing about a XL650L is cool also.

  • martinfan30

Posted February 29, 2008 - 02:53 PM

#36

I am sure most of us are talking the XR650R modified but, hearing about a XL650L is cool also.


Yep! Best bike ever built!

Oh crap, I just did it again!!!:smirk:

DELETE!DELETE!DELETE!

  • BrettJ

Posted March 19, 2008 - 05:32 AM

#37

sorry to bring this amsot dead post back to life but, , back to the original question. (has anyone raced a cr500 and xr650?)
Yes I have both, not new but an 88 cr500 and a 96 xr650
Me and my buddy race and swap bikes and race again and again just for fun all the time. In a flat out drag race the CR is always a few lengths ahead jumping furthur forward with each shift, the ol xr just kind of plays catch up . on the track? hands down the cr500 dominates, the xr is way too bulky and heavy for that, however on tight trails and desert wide open riding I like the xr650 , It has torque and a plush ride, I can ride all day on it and not be fatigued from vibes. plus the xr gets about double the gas mileage of the cr.
But when I want to just go have fun and ride full bore and roost on everything I hop on the cr!


96 xr650??????? are you talking about L cos R is 00+

  • dahondaboy

Posted March 20, 2008 - 06:59 AM

#38

nope i mean R cause its motor is a 88 600r bored to 624cc ported polished and ignition advanced, the cam was cut and custom welded and remilled to make it have a longer duration and the heavy duty rotax springs were moded to fit the valves. it also had a flywheel nut welded on to use an external starter as it pushed 215 lbs compression. tha motor is in pieces in my garage right now as I had a rod break a couple of years ago. and i am concentrating on other bikes now. we estimated it to be 68 hp. wich is very hot for that motor. It was my 00-02 hillclimb motor. yes the frame is a L however.

  • husky123

Posted March 20, 2008 - 10:04 AM

#39

nope i mean R cause its motor is a 88 600r bored to 624cc ported polished and ignition advanced, the cam was cut and custom welded and remilled to make it have a longer duration and the heavy duty rotax springs were moded to fit the valves. it also had a flywheel nut welded on to use an external starter as it pushed 215 lbs compression. tha motor is in pieces in my garage right now as I had a rod break a couple of years ago. and i am concentrating on other bikes now. we estimated it to be 68 hp. wich is very hot for that motor. It was my 00-02 hillclimb motor. yes the frame is a L however.


Actually no you don't mean 650R. There is only one XR650R and your hillclimber, jacked up 624.875 cc 600R ain't it.

  • BWB63

Posted July 08, 2008 - 03:45 PM

#40

I am realy hoping to push for all you guys to finaly come to gether and prove your bikes!!! I have posted way to many we are going to Pisom threads....

Come on bring your XR650R's, XR680R's, CR500R's, CRF450's Heck your XR650L's and the XR600's and come play at Pismo the last weekend of July! Paddles are cheap!
We should be pulling in late July 23rd and maybe stay till Monday Morning. It is real nice for the whole family. Boxing, some bring their guitars amps and drums, surf boards (wave are a little small but, they work), There has to be something to do while your healing from that last dune run. The women love to go to Morobay and see the seals and fish. We have had some real large groups in the past over 60 the year before last. The food is out of this world, Tri-Tip, Deep fried Turky, Sweet corn, you get the idea. Just sitting by the fire on the ocean listening to the waves (with a little braaap in the back ground) makes the whole trip worth it. For the last few years it has been a drag race to see what bike can win....CR500R vrs XR650R well for the full blown bikes it has been the 680cc XR over the Nitrous CR500R but, I think that is going to be different this year. The Hoones at www.bannedcr500riders.com got tired of hearing this and are coming in force to spray sand in the XR light...We can't let this happen! In reality there are lots of smooth curises through the dunes for all to enjoy. Some jumping, wheelies, just a good time.
It should be Explosive.....well maybe litteraly.

Things that help at night when the bikes are not running:

"Creamora"
"SoBe"
"Thermite"
"Tannerite"
"Magnesium"
"Mortar's"
of course none of us would do any of this......
http://borynack.com/...es/DSC00034.jpg





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