CRF600X sneak peak?


55 replies to this topic
  • huntmaster

Posted June 08, 2005 - 01:02 PM

#21

If they stop making the XR's and the CRF's reliability is a problem, there are other manufacturers out there that make some pretty sweet bikes. KTM, Husky... and just give KTM another year to work the all the kinks out of Husaberg!!! Not to mention the WR450 like Stonewall picked up and Suzuki's off road 450 to come.

There's no question that the selection and capability of bikes in the off-road 450 class is only getting better. The new 450X, a possibly new generation 06 aluminum framed WR, KTM of course, the sexy new generation of Husky thumpers, reliable Husabergs(!) and now possible new KXF and RMZ based 450 from Suzuki and Kawi.

The problem is, after seeing the reliability and durability limitations of many of the new generation MX-based racing four strokes....I'm not sure if I want a new 450! As a non-motocrossing off road rider, I'm not obliged to limit myself to 450cc and thus require a gazillion revs, mega compression, no oil capacity, skirtless pistons and ti-valves that bury themselves in their seats sending clearances to zero! A CRF600 can make the same or more power reliably and with a lot more torque...thanks to good 'ole fashioned cubic inches. If weight comes in somewhere between those 450's and the current 650R (with a happy button of course) I won't have to think too twice!

  • FastRich

Posted June 08, 2005 - 01:53 PM

#22

Its like,
do you want it light, or do you want it reliable?


No doubt!

I have been struggling with this for months! I have an 04 CRF450 for MX and GP's and its alot of fun in the desert too but I'm afraid of running it too hard for too long in the dez. I bought a 98 YZ450 as a 2nd bike that I had planned on making into a dualsport but when I got it into really rocky tight trails in the mountains it wanted to boil over and I felt it was too heavy for what it was and a time bomb so I sold it. I plan to race the Baja 500 next year so the XR650 would be the natural choice but I still want a do it all bike that is ridable in the woods. I thought that the Yamaha WR450 would be the answer but then I go back to the reliability issue. When I got back from this years Baja 500 a few days ago my mind was made up that I was getting an XR650 but now I'm 2nd guessing it again. I can't see wrestling that monster through gnarly woods and down rockfalls that pass for trails. I think unless I have at least 3 offroad bikes, its not gonna work out. :)

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 08, 2005 - 02:46 PM

#23

I think we're hitting a point here - Honda has to keep selling the latest and greatest thing, even though the XR650R is reliable, bulletproof, and fun. So they would scrap a good design, just to appeal to people's changing tastes/perceptions! After all, most guys (like myself) just want to go dirtbiking, and not race, so a pretty much stock bike will have all the performance we need. Yet the average rider out there is demanding that they have a race bike for their recreational riding. I'm sure Honda would be happy to continue selling it as long as they can make the model appealing to a lot of riders. That's why I'd like to see a few cosmetic changes as opposed to a workover of the whole bike. I thought that one of the common threads of thumper owners is that we are appreciative of a good solid reliable bike, and can live without giving in to the latest-and-greatest craze. I think that it's a following that can be widened, and Honda has to learn how to tap into that market. In fact, it's like the Harley of the dirtbike world - you buy your basic bike, and you customize to whatever extent you want! It's great for that! And if the line stays strong, even more aftermarket stuff will come along.
If they drop the XR's, that'll mean that there is nothing left but CRF's in the dirtbike lineup, and there will be a vacuole for guys just looking for a good solid bike. I, for one, would like to try to rebuild an XR-type bike that woudl fit into the segment that they are dropping. It's a marketing challenge, but I think it can be done.
Has anyone read Aerostich's "Treatise on Lightweight Touring"? It sort of follows the thread that I am talking about (anti-bling motorcycling).
I'd like to see Honda change it's focus toward reliability rather than continuing to only push racing. After all, they are able to successfully sell auto customers on the safety features of their cars (as opposed to their race-worthiness), so why can't they sell reliability, durability, and tradition?? They can push the father-son button, the Johnny Campbell legend button, etc.
(if XR's die, my childhood dies with it, BTW).
Jason

  • BrettJ

Posted June 08, 2005 - 03:01 PM

#24

Yeah the 650r defiantely needs a few showroom updates heres what i think it needs
1) New CR/CRF like plastics but still call it a xr650 not a crf650
2) A least a set of renthals or tag bars
3) Lower gearing
4) A decent thermostat
5) Fatter footpegs
6) Inverted folks
7) cr/crf rear shock
8) decent barkbusters

If you got that stock then most of the things that we normally do would already be done. Come on honda take note!

  • jamieyz426f01

Posted June 08, 2005 - 03:03 PM

#25

thats just a crf450 with 2 2stroke pipes on! :)

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 08, 2005 - 03:30 PM

#26

The XR is more than a bike - it's a culture. The latest/greatest craze can't claim that, so we need to keep our bike alive if we don't want our culture to go down the toilet with it.
Okay, I've compiled a list of upgrades/changes that we've talked about. What else needs to be added? We should collaborate with Borynak and everyone else to get a comprehensive list together, and go through it before submitting it, so that it actually makes sense to Honda. No point sending them a wishlist that's impossible to do - a list of things that can be made into a complete package should be compiled instead. So, first of all, changing the engine and the frame are likely not going to be possible, for cost reasons. So we need to determine if we can live without those changes. Of course, if Honda's already into the development cycle, we're screwed. This is what we have so far:
Dual pipes
Pumper carb (possible?)
CRF rear suspension
- heavier spring for a heavier rider
Front suspension
- once again, heavier for heavier rider
- inverted?
New rad guard/new rad?
New plastics
New front light/number plate - if they beef this up to a Baja style, I think it'd really sell - an oversized light with an aluminum cage, or maybe dual oversized lights and no cage.
Engine - more hp? I don't think this is possible at this stage
Lighter frame - also likely a very $$ change. I say we work with what we've got.
Bigger tank - sorry Acerbis, I like the size, but I don't like the look!!
Electric start - I don't know if this would go over with the Baja crowd. Maybe for the L version.
New name - XRF?
Lower gearing
Renthal crossbar - Renthal won't make this cheap for Honda. how about a Renthal-style bar??
Better thermostat - should be possible
Fatter pegs
Decent barkbusters
Okay, let's get more added, then go through one-by-one.

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 08, 2005 - 03:33 PM

#27

I know it might seem cheezy to do this, but a lot of new marketing involves listening to current users of products, so let's use that to our advantage. Toyota does this with the Scion, for example.

  • BWB63

Posted June 08, 2005 - 04:31 PM

#28

The reason you don't want inverted forks on a high speed trail/desert bike is normal cartridge fork flex more, letting the rider ride longer. Inverted is great for MX or short races. A fork brace will bring our stock fork to about 70% of what inverted fork are for a compromise. That will help stop the side to side flex but still allow the front to back flex.

600cc engine can put out a lot more then 55bhp at the crank (that is what a CRF450 puts out, as well as our stock uncorked XR650R) that being 44hp at the rear wheel. The husaburg 650 puts out 52hp to the ground stock. So, 48hp to the ground out of a 600cc bike to the ground would be easy. Add a few extras (Uncork it) and push that up to 55hp???

The reason for the CR500 shock is that it has high and low compression adjustments and is only 5/8" longer then the XR650R shock. The CRF450 shock is to long.

Lighter frame :) :) The aluminum frame thing looks and sounds cool but, it is way more ridged and heavy. The XR600R frame is lighter then the XR650R frame. This is where the burg really shines.

Lighter weight swing arm with more room for bigger tires.. more clearance to the fender for big paddle tires :D

Rollers on the rocker arms :D :D and better cam (more lift and more duration) let the engine rev just a tad more and less friction for more horsepower. Don't need the engine to rev above 10,000rpm so, titanium valves are not needed (or wanted).

Most needed to get everyone attention is less weight ;) 257 pounds would be what the XR400 is and what the CRF450X is so, why would you need them ;)

Every race guy wants the Magic "E" button :D

Better thermostat :D
Fatter pegs :worthy:

The FCR41 pumper is on the CRF450.

Lower gear?? As in the tranny?? with more horsepower and more torque why?? I pull second gear starts with 15/49 now...Oh, wait I have a 680 :banana:
If you mean sprockets that is a rider thing. This is a Baja bike :D 115mph is what my bike does/has been to.

The rest is up to the rider. Bars (they should be moved forward and higher) and the rest can be added by the rider to make the bike fit. But, I agree it should be made for a guy that weighs 190~210 pounds and is 5' 11". I am not that big but, it's an average :D not, 150 pound guy from Japan.







The XR is more than a bike - it's a culture. The latest/greatest craze can't claim that, so we need to keep our bike alive if we don't want our culture to go down the toilet with it.
Okay, I've compiled a list of upgrades/changes that we've talked about. What else needs to be added? We should collaborate with Borynak and everyone else to get a comprehensive list together, and go through it before submitting it, so that it actually makes sense to Honda. No point sending them a wishlist that's impossible to do - a list of things that can be made into a complete package should be compiled instead. So, first of all, changing the engine and the frame are likely not going to be possible, for cost reasons. So we need to determine if we can live without those changes. Of course, if Honda's already into the development cycle, we're screwed. This is what we have so far:
Dual pipes
Pumper carb (possible?)
CRF rear suspension
- heavier spring for a heavier rider
Front suspension
- once again, heavier for heavier rider
- inverted?
New rad guard/new rad?
New plastics
New front light/number plate - if they beef this up to a Baja style, I think it'd really sell - an oversized light with an aluminum cage, or maybe dual oversized lights and no cage.
Engine - more hp? I don't think this is possible at this stage
Lighter frame - also likely a very $$ change. I say we work with what we've got.
Bigger tank - sorry Acerbis, I like the size, but I don't like the look!!
Electric start - I don't know if this would go over with the Baja crowd. Maybe for the L version.
New name - XRF?
Lower gearing
Renthal crossbar - Renthal won't make this cheap for Honda. how about a Renthal-style bar??
Better thermostat - should be possible
Fatter pegs
Decent barkbusters
Okay, let's get more added, then go through one-by-one.



  • mikekay

Posted June 08, 2005 - 06:27 PM

#29

Believe me- Honda reads every word on here. In fact there are employees and retired employees who post on TT. Like my ol' buddy Mainjet!!

After Irondude went off on Baja cheating a couple years ago American Honda called the dude out of the blue and asked him to join a focus group! (he didnt) So maybe you should call them up and volunteer!

Honda is now working on the next big thumper. Right now.

Tell them what you want...before they make another stupid mistake like loosing the XR400 (which they are considering as a re-relase in dual sport trim!)

If you cant wait-and want one bike that excells in the woods, GP, Baja, etc...go buy the Husky 510. Power of a 650R, weight and handling of a 250X--reliable and yes parts are available. Its even priced right...

I gotta say i really like that quote-"if the XR's die, my childhood dies". Someone at AH is pondering that....to me that really sums up the Honda camp.

  • huntmaster

Posted June 08, 2005 - 07:08 PM

#30

If you cant wait-and want one bike that excells in the woods, GP, Baja, etc...go buy the Husky 510. Power of a 650R, weight and handling of a 250X--reliable and yes parts are available. Its even priced right....

Yep, those new Husky's sure are purty! Nice components, big power, reasonably light and a happy button. Well priced and getting some good press too! Ironically, they've been called "Honda-like" more then once due to the nice detailing, fit and finish. I wish Honda would build one too...then I would have an actual dealer in my area!

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • BWB63

Posted June 08, 2005 - 07:25 PM

#31

If they are listening then give us our bike :D

They can still make one CRF600X and the 600/650 Baja bike :D CRF600 more for trials and tighter stuff and a true open class baja bike.
Same engine, Baja bike would be a bigger bore. With 11:1 compression, more cam, taller gearing, stearing stablilizer, bigger tank and the CRF600X could have Inverted forks, 10:1 compression, corked to be plated and make a motard bike out of it also CBR600X. They must have a ton of XR650R frames and engines piled up somewhere and they need to sell them first :D
I just can't believe that Honda didn't pump up there winning the Baja so many times :) :) They had the best selling point and just let it go. Every Honda shop you go into should have posters up about there winning streek but, the XR650R is in the back corner. Even at Berts mega mall and Chaparral. Never on the stand with all the bling bling and gold chain. Even when the Baja is going or just over and the win is there :D If KTM won the bike would be in lights at Malcum Smiths :D You would see it in the paper and at all the races. Honda -->They just don't care :worthy:

Believe me- Honda reads every word on here. In fact there are employees and retired employees who post on TT. Like my ol' buddy Mainjet!!

After Irondude went off on Baja cheating a couple years ago American Honda called the dude out of the blue and asked him to join a focus group! (he didnt) So maybe you should call them up and volunteer!

Honda is now working on the next big thumper. Right now.

Tell them what you want...before they make another stupid mistake like loosing the XR400 (which they are considering as a re-relase in dual sport trim!)

If you cant wait-and want one bike that excells in the woods, GP, Baja, etc...go buy the Husky 510. Power of a 650R, weight and handling of a 250X--reliable and yes parts are available. Its even priced right...

I gotta say i really like that quote-"if the XR's die, my childhood dies". Someone at AH is pondering that....to me that really sums up the Honda camp.



  • SMOKE

Posted June 08, 2005 - 07:50 PM

#32

all i want is a happy button and Honda supporting the bike not placing it in the back of the shops like its the hunchback of Notre dame!

you are all wanting a "race ready" bike from the factory, its not going to happen. too many aftermarket places would go under if Honda made all bikes "race ready." yea a stabilizer and a pumper would be nice, but then when they start adding all those parts onto the bike and the bike is now up to the $7000+++ mark then you will all be complaining of how expensive the bike is. Honda cant win either way.

weight-ehh who cares you know its heavy get over it. go work out :)
RELIABLE that is the key selling points to the xr's name.

the key thing that i am trying to say in this post is Honda, give me a small compact great looking e-start and leave the rest of OUR beloved pig alone, its fat, ugly, and hurts me alot... and i love it for all of those factors.

and mikekay that quote "if the XR's die, my childhood dies"... it almost brings a tear to my eye.

Mike 53t

  • Supplicate

Posted June 08, 2005 - 08:07 PM

#33

and mikekay that quote "if the XR's die, my childhood dies"... it almost brings a tear to my eye.

It is the truth though. I can't tell you how many years I sat reading about the Baja, watching about the Baja (and other desert races, like those in Nevada), seeing that big red bike flying through the sand and dreaming of owning one eventually. Now I finally have one and am hearing the whisperings of the demise of my dream bike.

Sure, I am obsessed, but who here isn't? Honestly now. We wouldn't be having debates on if the L is superior to the R if we weren't obsessed and die hard fans of the whole line as it is.


In my opinion, however wrong it may be, Honda just doesn't give a rats ass about us, the small guys in their sales charts. But, its us small guys, the utter devotes of one product line, that oft times bring more to the market. Simply by owning a brand new 650R that other people can look at up here, 100 miles away from the closest dealer, has won many a person over to Honda from other companies. But instead of picking up a BRP like what they saw, they go see the flash and bling of the CRF450r and 250r and decide they want to be like the motocross heros and buy one of them.

And then they whine to me because they can't keep up or run as long or any number of things.


anyway, this post really has no point in regard to the direction this thread has taken.

On topic now: from a "new" XR line, all I would want is a little better suspension. Now, after much money, the suspension is about where I want it, but us big guys (I'm over 6 foot and over 200 pounds) shouldn't be forced to re spring straight from the factory. I would hope they could make something where it would at least be in the ballpark for the first dozen rides or so.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted June 08, 2005 - 08:29 PM

#34

No doubt!

I have been struggling with this for months! I have an 04 CRF450 for MX and GP's and its alot of fun in the desert too but I'm afraid of running it too hard for too long in the dez. I bought a 98 YZ450 as a 2nd bike that I had planned on making into a dualsport but when I got it into really rocky tight trails in the mountains it wanted to boil over and I felt it was too heavy for what it was and a time bomb so I sold it. I plan to race the Baja 500 next year so the XR650 would be the natural choice but I still want a do it all bike that is ridable in the woods. I thought that the Yamaha WR450 would be the answer but then I go back to the reliability issue. When I got back from this years Baja 500 a few days ago my mind was made up that I was getting an XR650 but now I'm 2nd guessing it again. I can't see wrestling that monster through gnarly woods and down rockfalls that pass for trails. I think unless I have at least 3 offroad bikes, its not gonna work out. :)



Have you tried the XR650R in those situations. It is amazing what pure grunt does to make things easier, it even compensates for the bikes weight. It may not be twiggy but there is very little that it won't do with ease even in the tight woods. :)

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 09, 2005 - 08:54 AM

#35

Thanks for the suggestions from BWB, Mike, et al. I'll compile an updated list after work tonight and re-post it.
Maybe Honda doesn't care about Thumpertalk, but we can present this under another guise that they might see as more legitimate - under a company, looked at by consultants and industry experts. But we can still get what we want! As above, you're right, we likely won't get a race ready bike, but the beauty of it is that those changes will still be very doable!
Of note, I was thinking about the price of the bike. It seems like Honda's research is telling them that dirt bike prices have to stay under $5500 in order to sell them. I'm thinking that that idea can be changed. For example, the BMW Dakar goes for nearly $10K. Sure, it's more touring oriented, but BMW took a dual sport, and really expanded the range of products in the segment, which had never been done before. I'm thinking that Honda can do the same with the XR dirt bike --> move it into a higher price/higher quality build, and forget about the price cap. I know a lot of you don't want to hear that, but I think that's where the bike needs to go to survive - high quality components, Dakar/Baja-like appearance, higher price tag. In essence, it's no longer a basic dirt bike - it's a little upscale, a lot oversized, etc.
BTW, what about braided (metal) cable covers??

  • BWB63

Posted June 09, 2005 - 10:21 AM

#36

I was trying to keep the bike with parts Honda already uses on othere bikes. The Kehin FCR41 pumper carburetor is on the CRF450r. Bigger front floating rotor, would be nice. The S/S braided brake lines are up to the rider. As would be nice bars, tank, headlight, blinkers, that would help keep the price down. A XR650R ready to race the way you need it to fit you is going to cost you more money any way you look at it.

  • BrettJ

Posted June 09, 2005 - 02:53 PM

#37

Reading some of the posts on this page about weight and I couldn't agree more. I don't understand why I am always ready "the 650Ris simply too heavy for tight trials" What a load of bullshit. I'm 19 years old and round 6 foot and pretty damn unfit. I often go riding and when I do its down trails which are so tight that you will be thankful you have bark busters. These trails are actually designed for horse riding, the 650r handles mint absolutley brilliant. I had previously owned a 97 KDX200 probably the 2nd most nimblest trail bike after the 200exc, the 650r is superior in everyway including handling and suspension. If you disagree then chnaces are you don't have your bike set up properly for your weight/riding style. If you do have it setup properly and still can't take it on tight trails then I would sujest getting a different bike, as the 650r can be ridden in the woods without a problem, sure not as fast as a ktm 200exc revving its tits off but its no slug and doesn't leave you beat up as people have posted. With a new 600 I would love a slightly lighter bike but when you start shaving off weight it starts to mean some parts are so lightweight and fragile that the will need to be replaced 2 as often as the current 650r parts. If I had to gamble on what the new 650/600 from honda would be like I would have to say you can pretty much bet it will be just like the big bore husky/ktm lightweight powerplant which is focused on motorcross not trail riding. Chances are they'll update the 650r graphics sell em along side the crf600/650 until there are no old 650r parts left in the factories.

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 09, 2005 - 07:03 PM

#38

[COLOR=DarkRed]The list as of June 9/05:[/COLOR]
Dual pipes
Keihin FCR41 Pumper carb from CRF500
CRF rear suspension
- heavier spring for a heavier rider
- not CRF, but CR500 rear susp (would Honda still produce this part?)
Thinner, lighter rear swingarm to accommodate paddle tires
Paddle tires :)
Front suspension
- once again, heavier for heavier rider
- not inverted, but includes fork brace
New rad guard/new rad?
New plastics
New front light/number plate - if they beef this up to a Baja style, I think it'd really sell - an oversized light with an aluminum cage, or maybe dual oversized lights and no cage.
Engine - more cam, rollers on rocker arms, taller gearing, 10:1 compression
Steering stabilizer
Larger front floating disc
Lighter frame - also likely a very $$ change. I say we work with what we've got.
Bigger tank - sorry Acerbis, I like the size, but I don't like the look!! Maybe a shorter seat could accommodate a bigger tank if we pull the handlebars back a bit?
Electric start
New name - XRF?
Renthal crossbar - Renthal won't make this cheap for Honda. how about a Renthal-style bar??
Better thermostat - should be possible
Fatter pegs
Decent barkbusters
This is the list as of June 9/05 (JN)

  • JackAttack

Posted June 09, 2005 - 07:08 PM

#39

[COLOR=DarkRed]The list as of June 9/05:[/COLOR]
This is the list as of June 9/05 (JN)


Before you put the crack pipe down...could you add - footpegs that don't fall off- to the list. :)





:)

  • Jayzonk

Posted June 09, 2005 - 07:09 PM

#40

I like BWB's idea of using current Honda parts - anyone else with serious knowledge of what Honda's using should bring this to the table b/c it may make a makeover a lot less $$$ for Honda.
But remember, we still have to make it appeal to the masses and that's the only way we keep our bike. So if we have to brand it as a Baja bike and really push that theme, then we have to Baja-it-up a bit with stuff that looks desert-ish (big lights (even if J. Campbell doesn't use them!), etc.). I also think that Honda should push some sub-branding on it - Keihin, for example, as "the premier carb maker for a century." They should even sell their rear suspension division to another company just so that they can brand it something else and push the brand (but that's a different story).





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