Can O ring chains be cleaned w/ kerosene??


43 replies to this topic
  • Slowmotion426

Posted May 11, 2005 - 11:13 PM

#21

I did not know this before....

  • MotoGoalie

Posted May 12, 2005 - 07:25 AM

#22

This is of course is opinion driven. And in one thread I did give Digi-lube jay a helluva a time for his sales job....meh.

I used to be in the camp of using WD40 for wiping down or dispersing water on o-ring chains. Not anymore.

I do believe from my two bikes that WD-40 has destructive effects on the o-rings life. The XR's chain had the WD-40 spray life and the chain died much too soon. Many of the o-rings are gone, the ones that are still there are cracked and falling off. I'll NEVER use WD-40 on another o-ring chain.

The o-ring chain on my YZ gets chain wax and a brush scrub when dirty. It still looks like new and gets ridden way more than the XR. ie I ride the XR maybe a dozen times a year and the YZ probably 3 or 4 times per week. :)

  • grayracer513

Posted May 12, 2005 - 07:38 AM

#23

you got lucky.

No luck involved, Jay. I did it with my first O-ring chain, and both the chains on my two current bikes are in their second year of use and looking just fine.

Look, I went around this mulberry bush with you once already, and I ain't gonna do it again. So I'll address your comments once.

Your points about lubrication are absolutely correct. The rings, like any other seal need to be clean and they need to be lubed. Although it's much less critical, so do the internal and external surfaces of the outer rollers. The problem with the rings is that if they are effective at their job, the lubricant in the inner bushing will not go more than half way out from under the ring, That leaves the outside to run against the chain plates dry and in the dust. That's bad. But inasmuch as the O-rings themselves are neoprene, I worry very little about chemical damage; there's almost nothing that will hurt them.

But you lost me on the cleaning thing. As I have said more than once before, I spray the chain, along with the rest of the bike, with Simple Green, and rinse it off with low pressure water. The lube I use washes off easily taking the dirt with it. Occasionally, some of our notorious white clay will refuse to drop off, and I use a brush against the sides of the plates, or a pressure washer from the side only, and it comes right off. Air dry it and lube it. Check it over for damaged rings and I'm done. What's so hard about that? Incidentally, the plates of the Regina chains are made so that they overhang the rings by a considerable amount, protecting them to a large extent from trail debris.

Luck comes into play with non O-ring chains. Unsealed is unsealed in both directions. Take your bike for a three day desert trip and you have to either hope that the lube job holds up through 10-12 riding hours with no seal to retain it, or lube the chain while it's dirty. The vehicle solvents in your chain lube will transport dirt with the same facility that they transport the lube into the bushings, so you're "lucky" if you don't wash a bunch of abrasives into your chain. Same goes for the cleaning. No seals means that there is nothing to prevent the intrusion into the chain of any number of contaminants, including your wash water, dirt being washed off the exterior, etc. You have no assurance, when you come back to re-lube the chain, that the chain is internally clean, or that the lube will not carry abrasive contaminants into the bushings, unless you get lucky. To be honest with you, I don't understand how someone who is such a stickler for precision can endorse such a haphazard method of servicing a standard drive chain.

The only way to be sure the chain is clean is to remove it and submerge it in a solvent and wash it thoroughly. I don't have time for it. Sorry.

As far as the question of fit goes, O-ring chains will fit on all YZ125's and Y250's back to at least 2000, and all YZF's regardless of year model without any modification to either the chain or the bike.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 12, 2005 - 07:49 AM

#24

I used to be in the camp of using WD40 for wiping down or dispersing water on o-ring chains. Not anymore.

WD40 is a great product. But it isn't really a lubricant. It's a solvent and a moisture dispersant. It also isn't a very good corrosion preventant in a long term sense, because it's too volatile. It works OK on stuff that gets resprayed every few days, like frequently handled machine tools, but it doesn't hold up over time.

What it does to O-rings in a chain is to dry them out, leaving them subject to grinding and tearing. The rings from some cheap chains may be subject to actual chemical damage, but I've tested extra rings from my own chains in everything commonly used around my bikes up to and including gasoline, and found nothing that does anything to the rings of either Regina or DID higher end rings.

  • ULEWZ

Posted May 12, 2005 - 06:45 PM

#25

WD-40 contains Stoddard solvent which is a very mild solvent. I have put O-rings from a chain in a cup of WD-40 with no chemical damage after 1 month. I also know people that ride the street that use nothing but WD-40 and have gotten over 28,000 miles out of the chain, but it does need lubing after every ride. If your O-rings dried out after using WD-40, then I would guess you did not add a chain lube after. Everybody has an opinion, so do as you wish. I know what has worked for me and my buds.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 12, 2005 - 06:52 PM

#26

[quote name='grayracer513']Look, I went around this mulberry bush with you once already, and I ain't gonna do it again. So I'll address your comments once.[/QUOTE]I'm trying to help anyone who wants help on this issue. It is an issue that I have studied extensively and there isn't one thing I'm offering that is simply my opinion, or a personal anecdotal experience. What I'm offering is hard facts about chains and sprockets. My info is identical to those who are considered to be tops in the industry.
When I see mis-information being thrown around, I will not hesitate to offer up my best objection to the bad info, as well as offer up what I consider to be the alternative.
[quote name='grayracer513']But inasmuch as the O-rings themselves are neoprene, I worry very little about chemical damage; there's almost nothing that will hurt them.[/QUOTE]Neoprene would break down quickly with just about any solvent that comes in contact with it. It's most likely that you won't find any rind chains using neoprene rings.
What you will find are Buna-N rings in mid-level ring chains, and possibly a Viton ring on a higher end chain. Buna-n type rings can also be attacked by harsh solvents. You may even find a chain using Nitrile rings, but no matter the material used, there is at least one or two agents than can attack any type of ring.

[quote name='grayracer513']But you lost me on the cleaning thing. ...What's so hard about that?[/QUOTE]BOth type chain need cleaning. It is a fact that, with the addition of the rings, we have a bit more maintenance involved with the cleaning of a ring chain.
Your contention was that if you use a ring chain, you remove 75% of your maintenance. I am simply showing another reason why that isn't true.


[quote name='grayracer513']Take your bike for a three day desert trip and you have to either hope that the lube job holds up through 10-12 riding hours with no seal to retain it, or lube the chain while it's dirty. The vehicle solvents in your chain lube will transport dirt with the same facility that they transport the lube into the bushings, so you're "lucky" if you don't wash a bunch of abrasives into your chain. Same goes for the cleaning. No seals means that there is nothing to prevent the intrusion into the chain of any number of contaminants, including your wash water, dirt being washed off the exterior, etc. You have no assurance, when you come back to re-lube the chain, that the chain is internally clean, or that the lube will not carry abrasive contaminants into the bushings, unless you get lucky. To be honest with you, I don't understand how someone who is such a stickler for precision can endorse such a haphazard method of servicing a standard drive chain. [quote name='grayracer513'] First off, you need to have to understand that there are other choices of lubricants than your typical moto shop goo.
A quality dry-film lube that uses a solvent carrier will also incorporate either lubricating solids or a lubrication chemical. The molecules of the lubricating solids are polar. The tail of their molecular chains are charged such that they adhere to the asperities of the metals surfaces. This action happens instantly when the fluid comes in contact with the metal. The dirt and debris that may be on the surfaces is not constructed of polar molecular structures, and is be easily washed away from the surfaces by the solvent, leaving in place the lubricating solids.
Chemi-bonding chemicals that are used for lubricity in dry-films work in essentially the same way, however there are no solids, but rather a chemical that will bond and reside at the oxide level of the surfaces in a similar way to the solids.
Both of these types of lubrication are way out of your comman chain wax or chain oil league. Being able to effectively lubricate a chain that has already been subjected to contamination is one of the reasons that dry-film lubricants are a clearly better choice.

[quote name='grayracer513']The only way to be sure the chain is clean is to remove it and submerge it in a solvent and wash it thoroughly. I don't have time for it. Sorry. [/QUOTE]Not so. We can get a chain very clean and with ease by using a high pressure washer. Unless of course you have a ring chain, then you must take extra care and attention so you don't violate the rings.

If you use a moly based lube, you will quickly notice that the sprocket teeth and the rollers of the chain take on a black-ish glaze, or discoloration that doesn't easily come off without heavy cleanser and scrubbing. This is moly that has adhered itself to the craters of the metals surface. Since the craters of the surface are filled with polar lubrication solids, there is no room for dirt. As a result, dirt will reside on top of the moly, and can be washed off very easily. This does not happen with lubricants that depend on a petroleum or parrafin film to seperate the metals. They tend to collect any dirt in the vicinity and create a dirty muck that is both messy and abrasive. After all, most comman chain lubes have added tackifier that makes the situation even worse.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 12, 2005 - 06:59 PM

#27

I have put O-rings from a chain in a cup of WD-40 with no chemical damage after 1 month.

How did you come to the conclusion that there was no "chemical damage" to the rings? Let's hear your process and results.

I've tested extra rings from my own chains in everything commonly used around my bikes up to and including gasoline, and found nothing that does anything to the rings of either Regina or DID higher end rings.

I'm real interested in your test method and results as well.

  • ULEWZ

Posted May 13, 2005 - 05:59 AM

#28

How did you come to the conclusion that there was no "chemical damage" to the rings? Let's hear your process and results.

I'm real interested in your test method and results as well.

I took apart the chain on my blade (x-ring chain) and removed some O-rings. I then sprayed WD-40 into a cup and put a couple of O-rings in there, and sealed it off. After 1 month, I took out an O-ring and compared it to another O-ring that I had removed, but not submerged. I looked for swelling, but there was none. I looked for cracking or checking, but there was none. I pulled on the little O-rings, and it did not come apart. Hardly a scientific test, but it convinced me. What really convinced me was one buddy that used nothing but WD-40, and his chain lasted longer than mine. I have used WD-40 to clean my last 3 chains, and it did not decrease the wear rate, compaired to the previous chains that I didn't use WD-40 on. You sound fairly knowledgable, so you probably know about Stoddard solvent, which is the solvent in WD-40 (check out the MSDS on the WD-40 website). It doesn't harm O-rings (at least that's what their website says and my unscientific test).

  • Crabtree426

Posted May 13, 2005 - 08:53 AM

#29

I'm on board with Grayracer. I've always used o-ring chains had have had good success. I use wd-40 to break down any grease and grim build-up. Then I apply a PJ's chain lube. It's not tacky, more oil based. Just my 2 cents.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 14, 2005 - 01:27 AM

#30

There are a few different materials used to mfg o-rings for chains. Some can be effected by mild solvents, others resist chemical attack.

Most of the chains the dirt biking community are familiar with, are top of the line o-ring chains. You won't find chains with as good of materials as a moto chain, save for a special industrial application. The moto chain market is highly competitive, and quality drives sales. That is why most rings used are higher end and will resist chemical attack from just about any sort of lubricant carrier.

When someone tells me that they tested these rings against other solvents like mineral spirits or gasoline, and they show no change, then I highly question their results and method.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • biznet1

Posted May 14, 2005 - 04:21 AM

#31

http://www.tedmichen...s/deadhorse.jpg

  • grayracer513

Posted May 14, 2005 - 01:46 PM

#32

http://www.tedmichen...s/deadhorse.jpg


And he never gets tired of it. :)

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 15, 2005 - 02:29 AM

#33

Only thing that gets tiring, is the misinformation thrown around by folks who have attained some crdibility in the past, but have shown to not know what they are talking about on this topic.

It's the false sense of security some readers may get from buying every bit of info these types of folks give them that irritates me.
I show how the information is incorrect, yet there is nothing but argument, and the arguments aren't backed up by anything more than opinion and personal experience.
These types of folks feel that their personal experiences are the way things are no matter what. There is no chance they are wrong on this, or any other issue for that matter.
Kids who don't have a clue, and internet comedians have given them enough praise that they feel there is nothing anyone can teach them.

What these sort of folks don't realise is that there are thousands of riders out there that want to know the facts of an issue...not simply opinionated, unscientific drivel that can't be backed up by more than the misinformants say-so.

Of course these folks also will resort to comedy as a means to undermine anyone who opposes them. Funny for those who are just as clueless, sad for those who really do know.

Show me I'm wrong. Offer up something that shows me to be way off base, and I'll easily apoligize for taking up so much of everyones time.

But if you can't do that, then back off and shut up (for lack of a better phrase).
You may actually learn something.

  • biznet1

Posted May 15, 2005 - 07:40 AM

#34

Only thing that gets tiring, is the misinformation thrown around by folks who have attained some crdibility in the past, but have shown to not know what they are talking about on this topic.

It's the false sense of security some readers may get from buying every bit of info these types of folks give them that irritates me.
I show how the information is incorrect, yet there is nothing but argument, and the arguments aren't backed up by anything more than opinion and personal experience.
These types of folks feel that their personal experiences are the way things are no matter what. There is no chance they are wrong on this, or any other issue for that matter.
Kids who don't have a clue, and internet comedians have given them enough praise that they feel there is nothing anyone can teach them.

What these sort of folks don't realise is that there are thousands of riders out there that want to know the facts of an issue...not simply opinionated, unscientific drivel that can't be backed up by more than the misinformants say-so.

Of course these folks also will resort to comedy as a means to undermine anyone who opposes them. Funny for those who are just as clueless, sad for those who really do know.

Show me I'm wrong. Offer up something that shows me to be way off base, and I'll easily apoligize for taking up so much of everyones time.

But if you can't do that, then back off and shut up (for lack of a better phrase).
You may actually learn something.

"These types of folks" that you refer to, if you are referring to grayracer, are the type that give people very valuable information. Sure, many people put out bad info, including myself on occassion, but grayracer is proven, very well respected, and has helped hundreds of people using this forum, including myself again. He's corrected my bad info several times and though embarrasing, I take it like a man because he's been there and done that. It's obvious that you're very knowledgeable with chains and lubrication, but when grayracer talks, right or wrong, people listen, because he's a freekin walking tech manual with experience to back it. The reason I posted the dead horse picture, is that it is what it is. A dead horse. You seem determined to prove your point (Clean it, lube it, no problem). "Science" has been proven wrong many times before. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm not saying you're right either. Hell, you are both way over my head and I'm a pretty fart smeller. My point is this. If you argue with grayracer on anything, you're going to get beat up by those that know his history. I've stopped using my tech manual for many things, instead I search for his posts to see what he has to say. Anyway, I learned a lot from your posts and I appreciate it, but let it go. Grayracer is probably older and YZer. :)

  • Ga426owner

Posted May 15, 2005 - 07:51 AM

#35

I probably will soon be replacing my stock chain, and both sprockets with the package deal from Ironman sprockets (i.e. front sprocket, rear sprocket, and choice of regina o ring or non- o ring chain) My riding is probably gonna be 70% Motocross and 30 % trails/woods riding. I currently like to take off the stock chain when done riding, and degrease it in Kerosene along with cleaning both sprockets in Kerosene, than using Maxima Wax based chain lube.

If I go with a O ring type chain, can I use Kerosene to clean it?? or will the kerosene wash out the impregnated lubricant?? Or should I just use a non O ring chain, and continue the procedure I use now??

I'm not going to race the bike (at least not for a year or more) but I'm wondering what's the smartest way to go?? O ring or non O ring chain?

Let me know what you do...... Don


If you have to go with a oring or xring (a personal choice in my humble opinion :) )never use any petroleum products to clean it - they will breakdown the rubber material over time :D
It is not neccessary to keep removing it to clean although if you want you can keep doing it - :D
WD and simple green will help also Belray cleaner degreaser, but never use a pressure washer as you will force all the crud into the places under the orings/xrings into the rollers that are not meant for crud - and will cause premature wear. Also a wire brush is a big no no to use as it will destroy the rubber orings. A nylon based brush will help break up the crud.

It ain't scientific to maintain these chains! It is however, a lot of common sense........I know some that never clean a oring chain - they just ride, wash and relube - :)

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 15, 2005 - 08:55 PM

#36

biznet1,
I understand that gray has lots of credibility. I have reads many, many of his posts and I am convinced he indeed has plenty of experience.
I happen to enoy power transmission and all that it entails, as well as have a passion for dirt biking, and I hate seeing misinformation being posted...by ANYONE. Including myself. I am sure not above admitting when I'm incorrect or off the wall on any particular subject. Some apparently don't consider ever being wrong.

Gray was very condesending to me, and only due to the fact that he feels his synopsis of the whole situation is the final word on the subject. He, like countless others, are missing a couple points of proper chain maintenance and I am simply offering up the proper information to help correct thier shortcomings on the topic.

I suppose the issue isn't really a big deal with most. When I hear of all the chain and sprocket problems people have, and yet they continue to subscribe to the same old incorrect methods, it's clear that the final drive gets far less attention than do other components of a dirt bike.
Folks throw oodles and gobs of money at their bikes trying to increase performance. With the growing interest in such modification procedures, people tend to pick up more technical expertise than they ever had before. The littel intricacies and nuiances of combustion engine dynamics, that were once known only to in-the-know motor builders and tuners, are now comman knowledge amoung a large tier of the dirtbiking community. Technical information can be addicting to some.

Save for the wheel...the chain drive is the oldest mechanisim used on a dirt bike known to man. It is also the most ignored and poorly maintained part of the bike.
What I am doing is trying to pass along some of the information I've gathered over the many years I've worked with power transmission.
Years ago I recognized that there was a problem with conventional wisdom, as it concerned chain drives. Since my interest was sparked and it was in fact the field of my occupation, I decided to find out why some chain drives far outlasted others of identical equipment.
Of course the obvious answer is that there had to be differences in the maintenance and care given to the drives.

What I am passing along is easy to check. All chain and sprocket manufacturers know each and every little issue I've touched on to be true.
Do a check on my information and you will see that it is the very same that is given by a mulitude of technical writings on the subject.

The main point of my whole rant is not to argue with grayrider, or anyone else for tha matter. I know I'm correct. It's just that simple. Not trying to be condesending or arrogant, I'm simply stating facts.
And it should be clear as day to anyone who objectively looks at their chain drives.
Some folks spend lots of money on their equipment, only to find they get about half the life out of it as the other guy. Right away some will start to blame other variables such as faulty equpiment, or bad products. When the fact is that they may have missed one or more crucial points of proper maintenance.

It is a fact that some people can purchase $20 standard chains and alloy sprockets, and their stuff will last at least every bit as long, if not longer, than they guy who spent 3 times as much. It's all a matter of maintenance procedure.

My main focus is not to argue with old curmudeons who are set in their ways and refuse to look objectively at anything they've already decided on...
my goal is to help the kid or new rider who wants to do things properly.
There is simply no reason for a kid to be advised to buy a ring chain because it is the answer to maintenance woes. It's simply not true. As I've shown before, there is every bit as much work in maintaining a ring chain as there is a standard. And sure you may argue this point, but we are talking PROPER maintenance here, not "internet three finger misinformation".

And aint it great to advise someone that you have tested ring chains with solvents such as gasoline, and it didn't harm them. That is a completely irresponsible bit of bad info to pass along. Either there was no real testing done, or the testing was flawed either in method or measure.
A kid could read that and think "Hey...that guy is one smart man, and he has 1000's of posts on TT...he surely knows what he's talking about...I think I'll start using gasoline to clean my 135$ ring chain that I used all of my summer mowing money to buy! Heck, gas is a fast cleaner...I have lots of it...and besides, mr. credibility said it's AOK and won't hurt my expensive o-rings at all!!" :)

But, oh well... :D Some do, some don't...some will, some won't.

And yes...I am at a disadvantage to gray....I only started riding dirt bikes in 1969. I'm certain he's got me beat.

  • MotoGoalie

Posted May 16, 2005 - 06:09 AM

#37

This is how Digilube Jay gets his chain cleaned...

  • biznet1

Posted May 16, 2005 - 06:48 AM

#38

biznet1,
I understand that gray has lots of credibility. I have reads many, many of his posts and I am convinced he indeed has plenty of experience.
I happen to enoy power transmission and all that it entails, as well as have a passion for dirt biking, and I hate seeing misinformation being posted...by ANYONE. Including myself. I am sure not above admitting when I'm incorrect or off the wall on any particular subject. Some apparently don't consider ever being wrong.

Gray was very condesending to me, and only due to the fact that he feels his synopsis of the whole situation is the final word on the subject. He, like countless others, are missing a couple points of proper chain maintenance and I am simply offering up the proper information to help correct thier shortcomings on the topic.

I suppose the issue isn't really a big deal with most. When I hear of all the chain and sprocket problems people have, and yet they continue to subscribe to the same old incorrect methods, it's clear that the final drive gets far less attention than do other components of a dirt bike.
Folks throw oodles and gobs of money at their bikes trying to increase performance. With the growing interest in such modification procedures, people tend to pick up more technical expertise than they ever had before. The littel intricacies and nuiances of combustion engine dynamics, that were once known only to in-the-know motor builders and tuners, are now comman knowledge amoung a large tier of the dirtbiking community. Technical information can be addicting to some.

Save for the wheel...the chain drive is the oldest mechanisim used on a dirt bike known to man. It is also the most ignored and poorly maintained part of the bike.
What I am doing is trying to pass along some of the information I've gathered over the many years I've worked with power transmission.
Years ago I recognized that there was a problem with conventional wisdom, as it concerned chain drives. Since my interest was sparked and it was in fact the field of my occupation, I decided to find out why some chain drives far outlasted others of identical equipment.
Of course the obvious answer is that there had to be differences in the maintenance and care given to the drives.

What I am passing along is easy to check. All chain and sprocket manufacturers know each and every little issue I've touched on to be true.
Do a check on my information and you will see that it is the very same that is given by a mulitude of technical writings on the subject.

The main point of my whole rant is not to argue with grayrider, or anyone else for tha matter. I know I'm correct. It's just that simple. Not trying to be condesending or arrogant, I'm simply stating facts.
And it should be clear as day to anyone who objectively looks at their chain drives.
Some folks spend lots of money on their equipment, only to find they get about half the life out of it as the other guy. Right away some will start to blame other variables such as faulty equpiment, or bad products. When the fact is that they may have missed one or more crucial points of proper maintenance.

It is a fact that some people can purchase $20 standard chains and alloy sprockets, and their stuff will last at least every bit as long, if not longer, than they guy who spent 3 times as much. It's all a matter of maintenance procedure.

My main focus is not to argue with old curmudeons who are set in their ways and refuse to look objectively at anything they've already decided on...
my goal is to help the kid or new rider who wants to do things properly.
There is simply no reason for a kid to be advised to buy a ring chain because it is the answer to maintenance woes. It's simply not true. As I've shown before, there is every bit as much work in maintaining a ring chain as there is a standard. And sure you may argue this point, but we are talking PROPER maintenance here, not "internet three finger misinformation".

And aint it great to advise someone that you have tested ring chains with solvents such as gasoline, and it didn't harm them. That is a completely irresponsible bit of bad info to pass along. Either there was no real testing done, or the testing was flawed either in method or measure.
A kid could read that and think "Hey...that guy is one smart man, and he has 1000's of posts on TT...he surely knows what he's talking about...I think I'll start using gasoline to clean my 135$ ring chain that I used all of my summer mowing money to buy! Heck, gas is a fast cleaner...I have lots of it...and besides, mr. credibility said it's AOK and won't hurt my expensive o-rings at all!!" :D


But, oh well... :) Some do, some don't...some will, some won't.

And yes...I am at a disadvantage to gray....I only started riding dirt bikes in 1969. I'm certain he's got me beat.

Understand. Point taken.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 16, 2005 - 08:12 AM

#39

Gray was very condesending to me

Really?

...you don't have a clear picture of how the chain is actually tensioned.

What sort of crap are you putting on your chains...

...your chain was too tight.

...(you) still don't have a good grasp of chain drive.
I might remind you I make a living with this stuff.

Apparently you don't understand how the chain tensions during it's service.

If you were paying attention to what have said...

I don't need to see your chain to know there was a problem.

All those auto mechanic classes...wow...and they covered chain drive and power transmissions lots didn't they?

And how do you know there were no bad links in the chain?

I am only trying to help a situation I KNOW you need some help with. Admit it...

He, like countless others, are missing a couple points of proper chain maintenance ....

My main focus is not to argue with old curmudeons who are set in their ways and refuse to look objectively at anything they've already decided on...

If you say so.


And aint it great to advise someone that you have tested ring chains with solvents such as gasoline, and it didn't harm them. That is a completely irresponsible bit of bad info to pass along. Either there was no real testing done, or the testing was flawed either in method or measure.
A kid could read that and think "Hey...that guy is one smart man, and he has 1000's of posts on TT...he surely knows what he's talking about...I think I'll start using gasoline to clean my 135$ ring chain that I used all of my summer mowing money to buy! Heck, gas is a fast cleaner...I have lots of it...and besides, mr. credibility said it's AOK and won't hurt my expensive o-rings at all!!" :)

Please quote the post where I have EVER recommended cleaning an O-ring chain with ANY petroleum based solvent. Following that, please also locate ANY post I have put up in which I recommend the use of gasoline as a cleaning agent for anything under any cicumstance.

My advise as to cleaning an O-ring chain is and has been to use Simple Green and low pressure water to rinse, followed by a non-sticky, clean drying synthetic chain lube once the chain is dry. My comments on the chemical durability of the O-rings themselves were a response to the unfounded worry over petroleum products destroying the rings, when in fact, the materials used in their manufacture were selected for their ability to tolerate such exposure.

Fist off (sic), in Yamaha's case, they list the same specifications for chain tension in several different manuals. There are slight differences in the shaft center distances of the different bikes that the manuals cover...

Yes, they do. They list this same information in all the manuals for all YZF's and WR models across at least 5 years. Interestingly, all these motorcycles have the same rear suspension and main frame geometry, other than head angle, and the difference in shaft center distance is the range of available chain adjustment.

Some apparently don't consider ever being wrong...he feels his synopsis of the whole situation is the final word on the subject.

Care to see my most recent mistake?
http://www.thumperta...ad.php?t=254824
I missed the fact that the '03 model year YZ250F did in fact have an issue with dropping teeth off 4th gear, and relied on more general experience with YZF's for the basis of an answer that, while it is still essentially correct, contains a specific error. Enjoy.

I make no claim to infallibility. You....

I know I'm correct. It's just that simple. Not trying to be condesending or arrogant, I'm simply stating facts.



  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 17, 2005 - 03:04 AM

#40

Please quote the post where I have EVER recommended cleaning an O-ring chain with ANY petroleum based solvent. Following that, please also locate ANY post I have put up in which I recommend the use of gasoline as a cleaning agent for anything under any cicumstance.

Originally posted by grayracer513: ...The rings from some cheap chains may be subject to actual chemical damage, but I've tested extra rings from my own chains in everything commonly used around my bikes up to and including gasoline, and found nothing that does anything to the rings of either Regina or DID higher end rings...end quote.
This statement doesn't say to a kid that gas would be ok to use for cleaning a Regina or a DID ring chain? It does, and your contention that gas won't harm a ring is false. Take the guy who posted this thread, he's worried about using kerosene (which is fine BTW) and if he reads your post, and decides from all the hoopla that some here give you, that gas is OK to use, the heck with kerosene! You may feel he's OK..but he's NOT. You have given him bad info that could cost him money and time. Not to mention the safety issue.

(I won't even go into the idiots who posted that they clean or lube while the bike is on the stand and running...that is a trick pulled by idiots only....again,..idiots only!)


My advise as to cleaning an O-ring chain is and has been to use Simple Green and low pressure water to rinse, followed by a non-sticky, clean drying synthetic chain lube once the chain is dry. My comments on the chemical durability of the O-rings themselves were a response to the unfounded worry over petroleum products destroying the rings, when in fact, the materials used in their manufacture were selected for their ability to tolerate such exposure.

You stated that rings were made of neoprene. Let us in on how you obtained that information. Another assumtion perhaps? In any event, incorrect.
And...petroleum products can in fact attack o-rings of many different materials, including those used on high end ring chains.
Perhaps you can show us where a chain mfg. states that their rings are fine for use with petroleum products and solvents, and that the choice of lube and cleaning agents makes no difference.
Then run us through your testing procedure. That should be fun.
Wait...don't run us through your testing procedure...I'll just call bullshit now and save us the trouble.


Yes, they do. They list this same information in all the manuals for all YZF's and WR models across at least 5 years. Interestingly, all these motorcycles have the same rear suspension and main frame geometry, other than head angle, and the difference in shaft center distance is the range of available chain adjustment.

Wrong. The available range of adjustment offered in the manuals is a percentage thing, just as I have stated, and just as any technical bulletin on the subject will state. It's not formulated on the available shaft distances of the different models. Another assumption you've made. The stated values in the manual can only be correct for ONE shaft distance.
2" at the back of the slider is 2" no matter the shaft distance. The problem with the info given by the manuals is that it is generic. If you adjust by the manual on one model that has 24" centers, and then on a bike with 22" centers, you will show ~2" at the rear of the slider on both...however when you compress the shock and check chain tension the proper way, you will find that one may be spot-on, and the other too loose/tight.
I'm simply telling you that manuals can be misleading, if not incorrect. You can trust my adjustment method or not, but I'm telling you that the proper procedure is far more precise than what a manual will give.
If you ask me If I contend the manuals are wrong...I don't claim they are "wrong", just generic and a bit misleading.

Care to see my most recent mistake?

I really don't care to parse threads with you on who has made mistakes. And actually, you didn't really make a mistake in that thread, other than use assumption and anecdotal experience to form your conclusion that the problem the fella stated was a rare occurance. I'm certain it may be a rare occurance in your world....and that is why you stated it. But it's obvious that you used assumption. I see a pattern, and it all fits.

I make no claim to infallibility. You....

I only contend I'm correct on the information I've given concerning chain and sprocket issues. You seem to have it in your head that you know all there is to know about chain and sprocket maintenance, but I contend you are way off base.
And this all threads back to the fact that you stated you had to change out your front sprocket twice, and the rear three times, yet your chain was fine and well within 2% of growth.
Again...thricewise even....you are doing somewthing wrong if what you stated is true. Your "assumption" on why your sprockets wore is wrong. I guarantee it. I see it often with folks just as hardheaded as you are.
You even stated your chain was within 2% of new, yet your method for checking elongated chain is to pull it away from the sprocket and slip a dowel between the chain and sprocket. You also had a problem with the method I stated as correct for measureing a chains length...so how in the world did you come up with 2%? You have a guaged dowell? I'm sorry, but there is some sort of BS in what you have stated. To much contradictory info.

The X-ring is over $30 more expensive than my Regina O-ring chain. Worth it? Opinions vary. Me? I don't think so.

Did you realize that an RK 520-XSO X-ring chain lists for $15 less than the Regina ORS?
Or that the RK 520-GXW (high-end XW-ring chain w/gold plates) lists for only $1.69 more than the standard Regina ORS?
If I'm not mistaken, the ORS uses only rivet type master links. Not a good idea for dirt bikes. And if you felt you saved money on that model, what did the staking tool cost you?

Look, I went around this mulberry bush with you once already, and I ain't gonna do it again. So I'll address your comments once.

Very condesending. Sounds like the words of a man who has provided spot-on information and doesn't have time to discuss such an issue with the likes of me.
But, once again, I challange you to provide information that disproves mine.





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