Xring or Oring chain for YZF450


40 replies to this topic
  • Ga426owner

Posted April 29, 2005 - 10:13 AM

#21

Without getting too scientific as this has started - I do not prefer o-ring /x-ring or "z" ring chains on motocross bikes period! :naughty: It is a personal preference, period - if I wanted the chain to way outlast my sprockets it would be totally different - I replace chain and both sprockets as a complete set - occasionally swapping the rear for different gearing set ups. In my opinion there is too much resistance and torque/hp loss using the "ring" chains on MX bikes - the chain will however last you long time - if this is what your about!

I will, however, always use the "all other ring" chains on woods/enduro bike set ups - this is what they are best made for.

My chain of choice for every YZF426/450 is the DID ERT. I have yet to have one fail or snap - they do need to be adjusted a few times when new and every once in a while thru the life of the chain / sprockets. I also run Ironman sprockets - This set up has lasted me a complete racing season thus far! I also clean the chain and sprockets throughally after each ride with Belray cleaner and light pressure wash - I use the new "clean no sling" Belray chain lube - it is a ton less messy than conventional chain lube!

The stock chain is total junk - it will stretch way too easy and it will eat your stock sprockets up very quick! I always replace before it even gets used - :naughty:

  • BigDesto

Posted April 29, 2005 - 10:37 AM

#22

Ironman sprokets! :naughty: :naughty:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted April 30, 2005 - 01:07 AM

#23

The rear facing edge of the tooth, which is the surface that bears the drive load, was a perfect quarter circle the exact radius it was originally cut to, but it was moved farther forward on the cog, making the gaps between teeth appear "half-oval", rather than half-round.

This is very indicative of a sprocket that may have a too tight chain. Yes, a driver with enough drive pull would also place a similar deformity on the cog. However, it is most likely that a deformity in a tooth valley like that appears due to the load seen when the shock is compressed and the chain is at it's tightest point (landing a jump).
I've seen the exact same scenario on a brute force YZ85.

Checking the fit of the chain on the replacement sprocket, I always found it to be correct, not stretched.

Let's talk adjustment method.
I never check a chains stretch by comparing to a new pitch sprocket. It simply isn't accurate enough. We need to measure our chains from pin-to-pin to have an accurate measurement. I realise you stated your chain was within the 2% growth range, so I have to assume you measured correctly. It just throws me when you add the part about checking the chain against the new sprocket. For many, that is all the measureing that gets done.

Avoiding overtight chains is important, but if anything, I run my chains on the loose side..

I'm curious how you manage to stay on the "loose" side of the adjustment. The very next step from there is too loose.
A drive set-up needs to have 2% of the sprocket centers distance in total up-and-down slack in the chain at it's tightest point, for a tight measurment.
3% total slack would be a loose side adjustment.
On a 2ft centers drive, 2% means there is only .48" travel both up and down when the chain is at it's tightest...and .72" total slack at 3%. It probably takes less than a 1/4 turn of the adjusters to go from .48" to .72" of slack.
I always adjust to the tightest(2%) and adjust again at 3%. This way my chain is always proper.
I submit that there is no way to "eyeball" in a correct chain slack adjustment.
By simply throwing two or three fingers under the chain at the slider doesn't get it, unless you have at least once properly tensioned the chain on that bike and know exactly where that brings you to when the bike is on the stand (or ground) at rest. A quater of a turn too tight will not show itself on the chain when the shock is open. But your bearings, chain, and sprocket know it every time you land a jump. And it tells you so too...by those little deformations in the tooth valley.

Sealing the lube in the chain leads to longer chain life because the chain is always lubed, and always internally clean, whether you ride in mud or dust.

To a point I agree with you. But only in a perfect world.
In the real world folks do not service a ring chain properly and often allow it to run with one or more damaged rings. This allows contaminant into that particular ring. That one bad reel can lead to sprocket damage as well as an accelerated demise of the chain. (a bastard pitched link that travels around and damages teeth at random)
I agree that when you ride in slop that a ring chain should be used to give it your best shot. But there are downsides to ring chains. They also remain "always" lubed only to the point that the lube has becomed consumed.
And it is "always" internally clean only if each and every ring is kept intact.
Once the lube is consumed, there is nothing you can do but wait for the chains death. And once a ring is violated or damaged in some way, that reel will not remain clean and there is nothing you can do about it.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 30, 2005 - 09:02 AM

#24

This is very indicative of a sprocket that may have a too tight chain.

I assure you, my chains are not run too tight. It's also indicative of abrasive wear induced by running a proper pitch chain over a soft aluminum sprocket with a heavy dose of environmental grit for 6-9 months.

I never check a chains stretch by comparing to a new pitch sprocket. It simply isn't accurate enough. We need to measure our chains from pin-to-pin to have an accurate measurement. I realise you stated your chain was within the 2% growth range, so I have to assume you measured correctly. It just throws me when you add the part about checking the chain against the new sprocket.

A half inch pitch chain run over 28 out of the 48 teeth on a rear sprocket should be 14" long between those teeth. 2% of that is just over a quarter inch. Since the new sprocket is a known pitch, if I can pull the old chain off the sprocket at the center point at the rear edge enough to slide a 1/16" drill under the chain, the chain's too long. Using either a new chain or a new sprocket, it's as accurate as anything else. This method has appeared in service manuals for at least 50 years.

Measuring from pin to pin, you have to measure over at least 10 pins, and you are looking for 1/10" or more to disqualify the chain. The only reasonably accurate way to do that is to lay the chain on a flat surface next to sratight edge, and measuring 100 pins is a better representation, since it will exaggerate the wear even more. I assume you would be using a highly precise method of measuring the chain, such as a tape measure, and eyeballing the pin centers?

And tell me, what do you think it indicates about the chain when, on replacing a worn sprocket, I have to return the rear axle forward to the same spot it was in when I put the previous one on?

I'm curious how you manage to stay on the "loose" side of the adjustment. The very next step from there is too loose.

The YZ450F manual says that with the bike on the stand, rear wheel at full extension, the chain slack needs to be 1.6-2.0" at a specific point in the chain run. I set it that way, and I have established ways of field checking it that are satisfactorily accurate for me. The chain runs up over the lower roller at full extension, and so the chain slack changes immediately as the suspension begins to move. It gets first looser,then tighter near the center point of the travel, then looser again until it contacts the upper roller. I'm sorry, but the chain slack in a long travel swing arm suspension changes dynamically far too much to get anal-retentive about it except to establish that it has some slack at all points, and is tight enough to stay on the sprockets.

That is unless you can explain what damage is done by a loose chain.

To a point I agree with you. But only in a perfect world.
In the real world folks do not service a ring chain properly and often allow it to run with one or more damaged rings.

People do a lot of stupid stuff I can't be responsible for, and those same people are at least as apt to neglect the much greater maintenance demands of a non-sealed chain. That's just a red herring.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 01, 2005 - 04:43 AM

#25

Measuring from pin to pin, you have to measure over at least 10 pins, and you are looking for 1/10" or more to disqualify the chain. The only reasonably accurate way to do that is to lay the chain on a flat surface next to sratight edge, and measuring 100 pins is a better representation, since it will exaggerate the wear even more. I assume you would be using a highly precise method of measuring the chain, such as a tape measure, and eyeballing the pin centers?.


There are several methods given to measure a chain and see just what percentage of growth it is at, but I want to offer up this method for those of us who want to know precisely where your chains stand. Although a tape measure from pin-center to pin-center will do a much better job than the old "three finger on top of swingarm" , the "pull away from the back sprocket", or the "lay it on the floor andf flex it" methods, I want to offer the following method as the absoulte best way to corretly and accurately see where your chain elongation is at:

Chain Elongation
Chain stretch is calculated as the total amount of elongation caused by wear on the pin and bushing, but not caused by deformation of the link plate. Remaining chain life can be estimated by measuring chain elongation.
This method can be used for any number of links, however the more links used the more accurate the calculation.

*(refer to the graphic provided)
1. The chain should be measured by stretching it slightly.

2. Measure the distance, using a vernier, of the inside (L1) and outside (L2) of rollers at both ends of the measured links, to get measurement (L).

L=
L1+L2
2

Chain elongation can then be calculated.

Chain Elongation=
Measured Length - Std. Length x 100(%)
Standard Length

Standard Length = Chain Pitch x Number of Links
Posted Image

And tell me, what do you think it indicates about the chain when, on replacing a worn sprocket, I have to return the rear axle forward to the same spot it was in when I put the previous one on?
The YZ450F manual says that with the bike on the stand, rear wheel at full extension, the chain slack needs to be 1.6-2.0" at a specific point in the chain run. I set it that way, and I have established ways of field checking it that are satisfactorily accurate for me. The chain runs up over the lower roller at full extension, and so the chain slack changes immediately as the suspension begins to move. It gets first looser,then tighter near the center point of the travel, then looser again until it contacts the upper roller. I'm sorry, but the chain slack in a long travel swing arm suspension changes dynamically far too much to get anal-retentive about it except to establish that it has some slack at all points, and is tight enough to stay on the sprockets.

The provided engineering information for a horizontal drive system actually calls for there to be only 1-2% total travel of the chain at the tightest point. However, the equipment added to our bikes ie..chain guides, sliders, and rollers, allows us to run our horizontal drive at 2-3%, which is actually the figures for a vertical type drive without guides.
2% of 24 inches (.48") isn't very much. There is a fine line between correct and just a smideon too tight, which can be catastrophe waiting to happen.
Being just a 1/4 turn of the adjuster can mean a too tight chain, and I submit there is no way you know you are correct unless you check it out.
I realise that manuals give fairly close directions for measurements, but more times than not, folks will not measure properly and have many problems with things not lasting. How many times have you heard the advise given to use three fingers under the chain at the slider? That method is flawed and should not be used unless you KNOW what that measurement is when the chain is properly adjusted.
Your three fingers, my three fingers, Lurch's three fingers???

That is unless you can explain what damage is done by a loose chain.
People do a lot of stupid stuff I can't be responsible for, and those same people are at least as apt to neglect the much greater maintenance demands of a non-sealed chain. That's just a red herring.

Actually, the maintenance demands are greater for a sealed ring chain than that of a non-sealed chain.
Both type chains need proper cleaning, adjustment, and lubrication. But the sealed chain demands added maintenance due to the added rings. The rings are the weakest part of the chain and must be kept intact, or the whole drive system can suffer. Also, the rings makes it tough to use a power washer for fear of ring damage, which means extra maintenance due to the special care we must give rings.

On a chain being too loose:
When a chain is run loose, chain slap and wrap can occur. Granted, we have guides on our bikes to handle chains that are too loose...which they are when the shock is not compressed, but there is always a chance of the chain binding on entry to a sprocket when too loose. Especially when a ring chain is used and there may be one or more binding links.
Also, a loose chain can vibrate alot. This continued vibration can lead to fractured parts of the chain, including bushings, rollers, and link plate holes.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 01, 2005 - 09:57 AM

#26

Lovely. You really can't break out of the "perfect world" mode and address practical reality, can you?

The provided engineering information for a horizontal drive system actually...

has rather limited application in practice. Yamaha's specified tolerances cover a range greater than the ones you have given us. Furthermore, the minimum of 1.6" exceeds 2% of the total 48" (upper and lower runs) of free running chain on my 450. The range specified, 1.6"-2.0", is 3.3% to 4.1%, and is taken at a point very nearly as tight as the chain gets, due to the contact with the lower guide roller. Facts are annoying, aren't they?

And tell me, what do you think it indicates about the chain when, on replacing a worn sprocket, I have to return the rear axle forward to the same spot it was in when I put the previous one on?

You never addressed the question above.

Actually, the maintenance demands are greater for a sealed ring chain than that of a non-sealed chain.

So, washing, lubing, and checking for damaged rings is somehow more demanding than removing, cleaning (both externally and internally), draining, re-lubing and re-hanging? I'm intrigued.

but more times than not, folks will not measure properly and have many problems with things not lasting.

...and that's still not my problem. But according to you, who does? BTW, my index and middle finger measure 1.625" across the first knuckle, and my index, middle and ring fingers are 2.0" at the second knuckle. That's close enough for me. :naughty:

  • tnl

Posted May 01, 2005 - 10:19 AM

#27

Do I have to separate you two! Ride on :naughty:

  • biznet1

Posted May 01, 2005 - 10:44 AM

#28

Damn, I just learned a lot!
Greyracer, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge so often. It's extremely useful to us ducktape and hammer extraordinaires.

  • Dolce_Grappa

Posted May 01, 2005 - 11:51 AM

#29

RK makes a great XW-ring chain rated for a 1000cc bike. Used on my KX-500, 426, and ones on order for my 450.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 01, 2005 - 11:56 AM

#30

Don't knock duct tape! :naughty:

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • sirthumpalot

Posted May 01, 2005 - 02:32 PM

#31

......Actually, the maintenance demands are greater for a sealed ring chain than that of a non-sealed chain. ....


OK first I didn't read this entire post, but this line jumped out at me. What a crock of stuff. Get a quality x-ring chain, install it, adjust it once and forget it for a long long time. I've never seen a non-sealed chain that lasts with this much "greater maintenance".

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 02, 2005 - 06:15 PM

#32

has rather limited application in practice. Yamaha's specified tolerances cover a range greater than the ones you have given us. Furthermore, the minimum of 1.6" exceeds 2% of the total 48" (upper and lower runs) of free running chain on my 450. The range specified, 1.6"-2.0", is 3.3% to 4.1%, and is taken at a point very nearly as tight as the chain gets, due to the contact with the lower guide roller. Facts are annoying, aren't they?

Facts are annoying when they contradict a beautiful theory. The "facts" you state above mean what, exactly?
I think from reading (over and over again) your post, perhaps you don't have a clear picture of how the chain is actually tensioned.
The figures that Yamaha provides for chain tension are pretty much spot-on.
But this measurement is to be taken when the wheel is elevated. I guarantee you that the chain is in it's slackest position at this point, not it's tightest. Only when you force the rear wheel through the travel until there is a straight line from the CS center to the rear shaft center, will the chain be it's taughtest. And if you measured 1.6" at the back of the slider with the wheel elevated, you would find that the measurement with the chain taught would be ~.5"
Is it me that is mixed up here?

You never addressed the question above.

All I can tell you is that if you went through mulitiple sprockets with a single chain, then the chain was stretched causing the sprockets to deform. Period.
Sure, there can be some where from abrasion, but what you described I have to bet your chain was too tight. How do you account for your fronts being deformed as well. Soft hardened steel? Trust me, I didn't want to answer this one because I feared your answer.
But that's OK...I see folks everyday who have been doing this stuff for decades and still don't have a good grasp of chain drive. :naughty:
I might remind you I make a living with this stuff.

So, washing, lubing, and checking for damaged rings is somehow more demanding than removing, cleaning (both externally and internally), draining, re-lubing and re-hanging? I'm intrigued.

If you really are intrigued, then stop arguing and perhaps I may be of some help.
First, why are you going through so much crap to service your standard chain? Why remove the chain? What sort of crap are you putting on your chains to have to go through that?
Both the standard and ring chain needs the same amount of attention lubrication and adjustment wise...but the ring chain needs extra attention for the rings. Surely that isn't hard to grasp?
I have ran a standard chain three times longer than most will ever get from a good ring chain. And that is only because I know what it takes to make them last. And with very minimal trouble.

That's close enough for me.

This says alot. Perhpas it's all you should have said from the beginning. I'd understand.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 02, 2005 - 08:21 PM

#33

perhaps you don't have a clear picture of how the chain is actually tensioned.

Get real. I thought it was tensioned by moving the axle relative to the output shaft, but I suppose I could have missed one of the more complex elements of the process somehow.

The figures that Yamaha provides for chain tension are pretty much spot-on.

Odd, they don't comport with yours. You stated that 3% of the total free run is too loose, and here Yamaha starts out with that as their Minimum.

But this measurement is to be taken when the wheel is elevated. I guarantee you that the chain is in it's slackest position at this point, not it's tightest.
Is it me that is mixed up here?

I'm afraid so. You are ignoring the effect of the chain's lower run being impinged upon by the lower roller, which Tightens it.

All I can tell you is that if you went through mulitiple sprockets with a single chain, then the chain was stretched causing the sprockets to deform. Period.

All I can tell you is that you haven't seen my chain laid out next to a new one, so you have no idea at all whether it's stretched or not. I have told you repeatedly that it isn't, not by any of several measures, and you refuse to believe it. I have no idea why, except that you are being confronted with a concept new to you, and rather in the manner of a "flat Earther", you refuse to accept it. Either that, or you think I'm incompetent, or a liar.

Sure, there can be some where from abrasion, but what you described I have to bet your chain was too tight. How do you account for your fronts being deformed as well. Soft hardened steel?

And I've told you more than once already that I run my chains looser than your specifications.
Front sprockets have less than 1/4 the number of teeth rears do. They therefore spin 4 times as fast, loads are carried by a quarter as many teeth as on a rear, and each tooth contacts the chain under a load 4 times as often. Given that, I'm surprised they only wear out half as fast.

Trust me, I didn't want to answer this one because I feared your answer.
But that's OK...I see folks everyday who have been doing this stuff for decades and still don't have a good grasp of chain drive. :naughty:
I might remind you I make a living with this stuff.

Trust me, I frankly don't care if you answer or not. Just to bring you up to speed, I spent 38 years of my Professional life "making a living with this stuff", diagnosing machinery, and analyzing problems, many of which were created by engineers with a lot of theoretical knowledge and not a shred of practical experience, and all too often, without any real help at all from the people who built the vehicle. I have assembled engines I never saw before out of boxes of parts without a manual, and built entire motorcycles and cars from piles of metal. I'm a certified Master Technician by three different automobile manufacturers and the ASE, a very competent machinist, and a excellent welder on four different platforms. Don't even try that one on me, or try to infer that I somehow never learned, in all that time how to adjust a chain, or read a wear pattern on a sprocket.



This says alot. Perhpas it's all you should have said from the beginning. I'd understand.

The ad hominum attack. I knew it was coming.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 04, 2005 - 03:14 AM

#34

Get real. I thought it was tensioned by moving the axle relative to the output shaft, but I suppose I could have missed one of the more complex elements of the process somehow.
Odd, they don't comport with yours. You stated that 3% of the total free run is too loose, and here Yamaha starts out with that as their Minimum.
I'm afraid so. You are ignoring the effect of the chain's lower run being impinged upon by the lower roller, which Tightens it.

What I have said is that if you tension your chain with more than 3% sag at it's tightest point, it is too loose. Free run of the chain has nothing to do with this.
Apparently you don't understand how the chain tensions during it's service.
When it is on a stand and the rear wheel elevated, the chain is in it's loosest position. When the shock is compressed, and there is a straight line from CS through swingarm to rear shaft center, the chain is at it's tightest position. This is a fact. And it is in this position you should tension the chain so that there is a total sag of 2-3% of the total shaft centers distance.
The reason we have rollers and guides is because the chain goes through the extreme of being proper when shock compressed to being way too loose when the shock is extended. The rollers and guides make up for the loose chain during that part of it's travel.

If you were paying attention to what have said, you'd realise that I explained that the Yamaha manual says to tension so that you have 1.6"-2" of distance from the top of the swingarm chain slider (at the rear slider bolt) to the bottom of the chain. IF you had tensioned properly with 2% (~.48") of the total shaft centers, then when you release the shock and place the bike on a stand and check the manuals stated distance, it will be right at 1.6". If you tensioned at 3% (~.72"), you'd find that the measurement on the stand is right at 2". This tells me that the figures stated by Yamaha for that particular bike are correct.
My whole point about properly tensioning the chain is that there is a fine line between too tight and proper. It is way too easy to be tight and not know it, if you don't tension the chain properly at least one time.

All I can tell you is that you haven't seen my chain laid out next to a new one, so you have no idea at all whether it's stretched or not. I have told you repeatedly that it isn't, not by any of several measures, and you refuse to believe it. I have no idea why, except that you are being confronted with a concept new to you, and rather in the manner of a "flat Earther", you refuse to accept it. Either that, or you think I'm incompetent, or a liar.

I'm not calling you a liar. All I'm saying is that I don't need to see your chain to know there was a problem. If you had changed out two front sprockets and three rears on the same chain, then there was a problem with the chain being elongated, not properly aligned, or too tight.
I realise you have thought this out and have come to the conclusion of why your stuff wears like it does, but I contend that your logic falls short of fact.
And the fact is that if your chain has not elongated in pitch, and the chain is properly tensioned, then the sprocket will remain in good service.

However, when we are talking ring chains, there can be the problem of one or more sections being elongated while the rest of the chain remains proper.
This is a big problem that is neglected often by ring chain users. A ring chain only needs to have ONE ring that is torn or cracked and allows water and contamination into the pin/bushing area. This one bad reel will wear much faster than the rest of the chain that is still intact. Every time this one reel passes over the chain wheels it works on the teeth a little bit more, until eventually you have damaged sprockets from that one bad reel. Of course when you check your chain it measures within specs...however you probably didn't include that one bad reel in the measured section.
The result is that your sprocket teeth are worn, and you assume your chain is fine, when in fact it's not.


Don't even try that one on me, or try to infer that I somehow never learned, in all that time how to adjust a chain, or read a wear pattern on a sprocket.

All those auto mechanic classes...wow...and they covered chain drive and power transmissions lots didn't they?
The day we stop learning, is the day we should be shopping for a pine box.

It's always hardest to explain things to a person who feels he knows it all already. :)



The ad hominum attack. I knew it was coming.

No attack. This is simply a debate between logic and flawed method, vs. engineering absolutes and proper method.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 04, 2005 - 01:08 PM

#35

What I have said is that if you tension your chain with more than 3% sag at it's tightest point, it is too loose....
Apparently you don't understand how the chain tensions during it's service.

Well those are a couple of the things you have said. But, you also said,

When it is on a stand and the rear wheel elevated, the chain is in it's loosest position...

...which is verifiably incorrect. I pointed this out to you, ("You are ignoring the effect of the chain's lower run being impinged upon by the lower roller, which Tightens it"), but you ignored that. When set to 1.6 inches on the stand, as called for, then set on the floor and the suspension compressed until the chain is free of the roller, it measures 1.8"+. So much for that.

When the shock is compressed, and there is a straight line from CS through swingarm to rear shaft center, the chain is at it's tightest position. This is a fact. And it is in this position you should tension the chain so that there is a total sag of 2-3% of the total shaft centers distance.

Of course it's the tightest point. To humor you, I thought I would set the chain to the 2% of shaft centers you specify. Since the shafts are at 26", I set the chain to .55" while the swing arm was pulled up so that all three shafts aligned. Then I returned the bike to its stand and check the chain slack and found it at 1.25". Hmmm? So, apparently, based only on actual measurements, your contention...

IF you had tensioned properly with 2% (~.48") of the total shaft centers, then when you release the shock and place the bike on a stand and check the manuals stated distance, it will be right at 1.6".

....is simply, dare I say, wrong. I hope you don't actually run your chain that tight.

My whole point about properly tensioning the chain is that there is a fine line between too tight and proper. It is way too easy to be tight and not know it, if you don't tension the chain properly at least one time.

My contention is that it's a simple matter to follow the instructions in the manual every time and be certain your chain is OK without going through any of what you have laid out. In the abscence of a manual or any source of reliable information for a particular bike, such a method could be used to establish a base line, however. After that, anything can be used in the field as a guage, once it's been checked against the right measurement, even three fingers, if it works. As to the precision of it, as with the use of a feeler guage, the determination of what is slack and what is excessive tension in a chain is, at the least, subjective.

I'm not calling you a liar. All I'm saying is that I don't need to see your chain to know there was a problem. If you had changed out two front sprockets and three rears on the same chain, then there was a problem with the chain being elongated, not properly aligned, or too tight.
I realise you have thought this out and have come to the conclusion of why your stuff wears like it does, but I contend that your logic falls short of fact.
And the fact is that if your chain has not elongated in pitch, and the chain is properly tensioned, then the sprocket will remain in good service.

What you are saying then, is that if the chain remains at the correct pitch, the sprockets will never wear, in spite of the fact that they are operated in the open, metal on metal, in the presence of dirt and sand, with little or no lubrication. That must be an "engineering absolute".

However, when we are talking ring chains, there can be the problem of one or more sections being elongated while the rest of the chain remains proper.

I'm sure you'll be able to explain how that happens when the entire length of the chain as a whole is within 1% of its original length. I have no bad links; I assumed nothing; the chain is not stretched. Along with other checks, the wear pattern so indicates. But they didn't teach wear analysis in your engineering classes, did they?

All those auto mechanic classes...wow...and they covered chain drive and power transmissions lots didn't they?

I have done a great deal of independent technical reading, but I have never attended a "mechanics class" in my entire life. I learned my trade by practicing it. You cannot become a Master Technician in a classroom. The only "classes" I ever attended were introductions to new models.

It's always hardest to explain things to a person who feels he knows it all already.

Look in a mirror. And check with Chandler Packaging. They sell all kinds of wooden boxes.

As for me, I can see that my grandfather was right. My time has been wasted, the pig still can't sing, and he does appear to be annoyed.

Have the last word. My treat.

  • biznet1

Posted May 04, 2005 - 06:35 PM

#36

Hey guys, can we talk about grips now? :)

  • grayracer513

Posted May 04, 2005 - 09:38 PM

#37

Oooooh, Grips! :drool:

  • DigilubeJay

Posted May 05, 2005 - 04:19 AM

#38

...which is verifiably incorrect. I pointed this out to you, ("You are ignoring the effect of the chain's lower run being impinged upon by the lower roller, which Tightens it"), but you ignored that. When set to 1.6 inches on the stand, as called for, then set on the floor and the suspension compressed until the chain is free of the roller, it measures 1.8"+. So much for that.

You still can't visualize what I'm trying to convey to you, grayracer. Fist off, in Yamaha's case, they list the same specifications for chain tension in several different manuals. There are slight differences in the shaft center distances of the different bikes that the manuals cover, so they are giving a ballpark figure and not a measurement specified for that individual bike...but the info they do give is fairly close in most all instances.

Forget about what the roller does. It is only there due to the fact that we need to run our chains looser than what engineering guides say we should.
When you set your sag at 1.6" on the stand, and then compress the shock so it is at it's tightest point (which is when the shafts and swingarm are all aligned, and there is no denying that fact) then you don't measure again from the top of the swingarm. What you do is measure the total up and down movement of the chain, midway between the shafts.
Don't discount a method you aren't doing correctly, or don't understand.
I suppose I need to clarify what we are actually measuring here.
Posted Image
If you care to see my full explination and instructions for proper chain adjustment and care, you can use the follwing link: Chain Maintenance


Of course it's the tightest point. To humor you, I thought I would set the chain to the 2% of shaft centers you specify. Since the shafts are at 26", I set the chain to .55" while the swing arm was pulled up so that all three shafts aligned. Then I returned the bike to its stand and check the chain slack and found it at 1.25". Hmmm? So, apparently, based only on actual measurements, your contention...
....is simply, dare I say, wrong. I hope you don't actually run your chain that tight.

I am not wrong on this issue. Before you discount someones method, you should first be certain you are doing it correctly. From what I read above, you still are a bit fuzzy on what I'm talking about here.


...My contention is that it's a simple matter to follow the instructions in the manual every time and be certain your chain is OK without going through any of what you have laid out. In the abscence of a manual or any source of reliable information for a particular bike, such a method could be used to establish a base line, however. After that, anything can be used in the field as a guage, once it's been checked against the right measurement, even three fingers, if it works. As to the precision of it, as with the use of a feeler guage, the determination of what is slack and what is excessive tension in a chain is, at the least, subjective.

The proper slack of a roller chain is not suggestive at all. It is engineering procedure that must be followed to be correct. It is fact that if you have less than .48 total movement on a chain in it's tightest position, running on two foot shaft centers, you have a chain that is too taught.
And I have stated what you are saying. Once you establish a baseline by tensioning properly one time, then you can guage it however you want from there on out. The fact is that this method is far more precise than the manual states. They are the ones who have provided a baseline. I am providing a more precise method. And, if you are wearing out sprockets before your chain does, then I highly suggest you do this one time so you know that adjustment isnt the issue. (which it most likely is the problem)

What you are saying then, is that if the chain remains at the correct pitch, the sprockets will never wear, in spite of the fact that they are operated in the open, metal on metal, in the presence of dirt and sand, with little or no lubrication. That must be an "engineering absolute".

Yes, I'm stating that the sprocket will not wear uniformly from abrasion alone when running with a properly aligned and tensioned chain.
But, if you run with no lubrication, then you have more issues here than a simple adjustment procedure.

I'm sure you'll be able to explain how that happens when the entire length of the chain as a whole is within 1% of its original length. I have no bad links; I assumed nothing; the chain is not stretched. Along with other checks, the wear pattern so indicates. But they didn't teach wear analysis in your engineering classes, did they?

You first stated the chain was within 2% of original pitch. Now it's 1%...
But, I'm certain you have no idea of what actual percent the chain was stretched. You don't meaure the chain properly, so how could you even know the percentage of growth? You SURE aren't going to give percentage information by pulling the chain away from the sprocket and shoving a dowel under it.
And how do you know there were no bad links in the chain?
Let's assume we have a new chain(.625" pitch)...there is one bad reel in the mix that has dirt and abrasives that have worn the pin bushing area and the bad reel measures .6375". That one bad reel is 3% over original pitch distance, and if you measure a 10 pin section of chain that has that one bad reel in it, you would show a measurement of 6.269" for that section.
A new 10 pin section of #520 chain measures 6.25", and the section with the bad reel measures 6.269", which is well within the 1% of growth range (6.313"). AH, the chain shows it is well within tolerence, however we know that there is one bad reel in that section that is 3% over pitch.
It is that bad pitched reel that will eventually see every tooth on both sprockets, and each and every time it does see a tooth, it wears at it.

Again...I state the fact that a ring chain can cause problems. Some folks provide good chain maintenance and have good luck, others are only lucky.
But there are some who have problems with their equipment and blame it on soft sprockets or having a beast bike, when the problems they are experiencing have nothing to do with faulty equipment or a horespower monster...but rather a lack of proper maintenance.

I have done a great deal of independent technical reading, but I have never attended a "mechanics class" in my entire life. I learned my trade by practicing it. You cannot become a Master Technician in a classroom.

I also have spent years studying my trade. On issues concerning oxygen sensors and catalytic converters, I'd have to concede to your superior knowledge of such things...but when it comes to power transmission, machinery, and all that they entail, I am a proffesional in that area and provide my expertise in these matters for a living.
Including training maintenance type personel in the proper care of roller chains and sprockets. I know this subject upside down and inside out, and have argued with many on the topic. Some come around and realise they didn't know what they thought they did, others simply are too hard headed to realise when someone is trying to help them, not put bad info on them for no reason.

And there is no other reason to continue this with you. I am only trying to help a situation I KNOW you need some help with. Admit it, or not...take what I am offering you, or not. I don't care much anymore.
But you have to realise that there just may be a thing or two to learn...or not...your choice.

...Have the last word. My treat.

Oh no, by all means, please take another shot. :)

  • beezer

Posted May 05, 2005 - 05:05 AM

#39

Thanks for boring us all to death.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 05, 2005 - 06:52 AM

#40

Thanks for boring us all to death.

You have to "realise" he's an English engineer :)





Related Content

Forums
Photo

Chubby dad, looking at bikes , First trip to the orange/black forum ! by Slow_ride


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   KTM   250-530 EXC/MXC/SXC/XC-W/XCR-W (4-Strokes)
  • Hot  28 replies
Forums
Photo

2016 YZ450 by CaptainKnobby


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Technical Forums   Suspension
  • Hot  59 replies
Forums
Photo

Michigan Motocross Tires by 288yz450


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Regional Discussion   North
  • 1 reply
Forums
Photo

First Hare scramble tips by dhend8


Dirt Bike   General Dirt Bike Forums   General Dirt Bike Discussion
  • Hot  33 replies
Forums
Photo

Snake pit oct 30th by The Anvil


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Regional Discussion   California
  • Hot  293 replies
 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.