Finally out of Mobile 1 Red Cap, what's next...


66 replies to this topic
  • SeaBass44

Posted April 04, 2005 - 10:54 AM

#21

Like I mentioned earlier, when the time comes for an oil change the night before a ride, I need oil right now that I can get my hands on quick. Well Saturday night rolled around and suddenly I had to change my oil right now for a ride on Sunday. I really didn't even have time to run to a store and try and get the Rotella so since that gallon of Mobile 1 Extended Performance I bought 6 weeks ago was still sitting on the bench I went for it. I'm happy to say that there was no clutch slippage or odor. Sometimes a clutch can smell if it doesn't like the oil. I guess if it didn't slip on this ride it should be a good enough oil. We went through about 2 1/2 hours of extremely difficult technical single track riding with tons of rock and moderate hill climbs where I was constantly having to intentionally slip the clutch with the lever. I rode the crap out of it and it seemed ok right up until I tried to turn the bike into a submarine. We'd been crossing deep water all day and I figured if I just hit it hard enough I could carry across. That water hole didn't actually look that deep but the exhaust actually went under before I even hit the bottom. It's actually hard to hang on when you're that deep, kind of like getting up on a water ski with the water pushing back at you. I thought I was going to make it for awhile there but once the air box fills up and floods through the air filter, you're done. Took some time to get moving again, you know, remove air filter and ring it out, stand the bike upside down and drain it and then kick it until your leg is falling off. Then let your buddy kick it some too. I found it would start and idle pretty soon but you couldn't rev it because I guess there was water in the accelerator pump or somewhere else but after about 1/2 an hour we were rolling again. So since I submerged the whole bike I changed the oil again this morning and found it to be clear of any water. The oil looked good, slightly discolored but good enough that I put some more of the same back in for the next ride. So I guess for now, I'll be one of the people testing out this oil and I'll post if I find any problems. Next time I'll find a stick or something to see how deep the water is.


YOU are not the only one :naughty: I ran it around 3 changes, saw the oil anylisest(sp) GOLD CAP has leess friction modifiers then red cap or there cycle oil, so it's even better so you are safe. I'm going to run it in my toyota & I now run castrol 10/40 dino in my bike, I change it every ride, 3-6 hours so I'm not seeing any great benifit :naughty:

  • grayracer513

Posted April 04, 2005 - 01:25 PM

#22

Like I mentioned earlier, when the time comes for an oil change the night before a ride, I need oil right now that I can get my hands on quick.

If this has happened to you, or you think it might, may I suggest that you go buy two quarts of something now? Just a thought.

The initial reports on the new Mobil 1 extended performance are really just now coming in...

As far as molly is concerned, it still has less than M1's motorcycle oils...

the difference is only about 11%. Not really notable except that it isn't higher than MX4T.

5-40 is plenty...regardless of heat.

40 weights are good up to 114 degrees F outside temp. I don't know about anyone else, but when it gets that hot, I'm not on my dirt bike. There is some argument for the use of a 50 weight in an engine with rolling element bearings when temperatures run at the higher end of that range, but according to Yamaha, it isn't necessary. I run a 10w-40 year round.

The only concern that I have about an oil like Rotella T comes up when I see the high ratio of low-to-high viscosity (5w-40, 8:1) it has. To me it calls the shear stability into question. The Viscosity Index Improvement additives (VII's) used to make this range wider in multigrade oils are physically fragile enough that an oil subjected to the loads placed on it by a transmission or even ball bearings can lower the upper viscosity a fairly startling amount in a pretty short time. Modern synthetic base stocks have viscosity indexes (VI) high enough to achieve 3 or 4:1 ratios without many VII's added, so grades like 10w-40 and 15w-50 are achievable more or less just by selecting the right base. This means it will retain more of its viscosity for a longer time.

If you change your oil more frequently than the 10 hour interval I use, I don't think you'll run into trouble using an oil like Rotella or M1 Truck & SUV, but I've never seen an oil analysis showing the tested viscosity of a 10 hour sample of either, so I simply don't know. At this point, it's worth it to me to use an oil that is actually labeled as being suitable for the purpose. That way, I can worry about something else.

It was pointed out in another thread that the current formulation of Gold Cap Extended Performance oils has long OCI's in mind, and that this is in conflict with some of the EC considerations of the API SM standard. The feeling was that the oil is going to be changed yet again, and that it may yet carry the EC labeling. If you use it, watch out for that.

  • cowboyona426

Posted April 04, 2005 - 09:39 PM

#23

the difference is only about 11%. Not really notable except that it isn't higher than MX4T.


grayracer, not to doubt you at all, but I think the Mobil 1 extended performance actually does have less moly than the MX4T. If you look at the analysis sheets posted earlier, it shows less moly in the extended performance oil.

  • WheelsUp

Posted April 04, 2005 - 10:47 PM

#24

grayracer, not to doubt you at all, but I think the Mobil 1 extended performance actually does have less moly than the MX4T. If you look at the analysis sheets posted earlier, it shows less moly in the extended performance oil.

That's exactly what he said.

  • ovrrdrive

Posted April 05, 2005 - 12:27 AM

#25

The reason the lack of molly in M1EP is notable is that Mobile is telling everyone EP isn't safe for wet clutch applications because of the molly content in it and that everyone should use their motorcycle specific oils.

If there is actually less molly in it, and no other friction modifiers, it sounds like marketing to me.

You can't blame them for doing that of course. I'm sure they have R&D to offset and the profit margin is higher on the mx4t stuff. It makes good business sense to push it.

  • cowboyona426

Posted April 05, 2005 - 09:53 AM

#26

That's exactly what he said.


Yeah I know, I was agreeing with him... :naughty: :naughty:

  • grayracer513

Posted April 05, 2005 - 12:10 PM

#27

The reason the lack of molly in M1EP is notable is that Mobile is telling everyone EP isn't safe for wet clutch applications because of the molly content in it and that everyone should use their motorcycle specific oils.

If there is actually less molly in it, and no other friction modifiers, it sounds like marketing to me.

You can't blame them for doing that of course. I'm sure they have R&D to offset and the profit margin is higher on the mx4t stuff. It makes good business sense to push it.

More likely the JASO certification has to be paid for, but marketing is an element, of course. Moly below about 100 ppm shouldn't be too much of a concern, anyway. The point of Mobil warning people off of EP for wet clutches may go back to the idea that they aren't done tweaking it, as I mentioned, and that it could yet end up as an EC oil.

Of greater concern to me than the moly levels is the over 25% reduction in Phosphorus and Zinc in EP compared to MX4T. These are the wear reducing "emergency lubricants" that are so important to high performance engines.

  • MaxAZ

Posted April 05, 2005 - 03:17 PM

#28

I guess it's possible to wear the rings a little faster but the cylinder surface is'nt going to wear any faster unless the piston comes apart.

  • resslera

Posted April 05, 2005 - 07:26 PM

#29

[quote name='

Of greater concern to me than the moly levels is the over 25% reduction in Phosphorus and Zinc in EP compared to MX4T. These are the wear reducing "emergency lubricants" that are so important to high performance engines.[/QUOTE']


That is a concern to you? EP 15w50 still has phos/zinc well over 1000ppm each! That is higher than many mc specific oils

  • grayracer513

Posted April 05, 2005 - 08:06 PM

#30


Of greater concern to me than the moly levels is the over 25% reduction in Phosphorus and Zinc in EP compared to MX4T. These are the wear reducing "emergency lubricants" that are so important to high performance engines.


That is a concern to you? EP 15w50 still has phos/zinc well over 1000ppm each! That is higher than many mc specific oils

Really? Actually, as I said, it has 25% less than MX4T (you'll note that that is what I said, and that MX4T is motorcycle specific.) I have the exact figures at work, but as an approximation, EP is about 1200/1300 P/Zn, while MX4T is 1600/1800. I believe EP has less P/Zn than the old Red Cap, too. M1 Truck and SUV has even more

I guess it's possible to wear the rings a little faster but the cylinder surface is'nt going to wear any faster unless the piston comes apart.

The P/Zn anti-wear additives are more important to the areas most likely to run into a lack of oil (the cams and their journals), and the parts that run under the greatest specific pressure (the ball and roller bearings in the engine). The Zinc and Phosphorus are the last line of defense against metal to metal contact when the oil film is broken through, and they are better at it than any substitute. The only reason they were ever withdrawn from car oils is because phosphorus shortens the effective life of catalytic converters.

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  • resslera

Posted April 06, 2005 - 08:17 AM

#31

"I believe EP has less P/Zn than the old Red Cap, too. M1 Truck and SUV has even more"

Wrong here too. Mobil 1 increased these additives, they didn't decrease them. I have oil analysis's done on 15w50 old "red cap" that shows zinc 1175 and phos 1072. They indeed went up.

Truck/SUV was 1352 zinc and 994 phos FYI.

  • WheelsUp

Posted April 06, 2005 - 12:58 PM

#32

Has anyone done a VOA on Rotella Synth 5w-40? I'd be interested in seeing that.

  • grayracer513

Posted April 06, 2005 - 02:43 PM

#33

"I believe EP has less P/Zn than the old Red Cap, too. M1 Truck and SUV has even more"

Wrong here too. Mobil 1 increased these additives, they didn't decrease them. I have oil analysis's done on 15w50 old "red cap" that shows zinc 1175 and phos 1072. They indeed went up.

Truck/SUV was 1352 zinc and 994 phos FYI.

My mistake re: Red Cap vs. EP. Nevertheless, the fact remains that EP has 1223 and 1326 P/Zn compared to 1663 and 1802 in MX4T (V-Twin is virtually the same). That, as I said earlier, is 25 and 28% less, respectively.

  • mnm567

Posted April 06, 2005 - 04:47 PM

#34

grayracer513,

What oil do you use? You seem to know a lot on many subjects. What do you think about the yamaha 4R oils? This is the first year I have owned a four stroke and really don't know of a good quality oil to use. Thanks, Matt

  • WheelsUp

Posted April 06, 2005 - 07:11 PM

#35

The only thing wrong with 4 and 4R are the price.

For the price of 4R at the cycle shop, you can buy Mobil MX4T at and have a 100% true synthetic from a known source with a known composition.

Yamaha and Honda oils are obviously not refined and blended by the bike builders. Without a VOA of the "brand" oils every 6 months or so, we have no way of knowing what's in them.

As far as I know, 4R is a synthetic blend, but not a 100% true synthetic. 4R is better than 4, but for the price, I think it's a waste of money.

  • mnm567

Posted April 07, 2005 - 09:12 AM

#36

Thanks for your opinion Wheelsup! If anyone else has any thoughts on the higher priced yamalube, let me know. That's all I have been using because I haven't found a good alternative. At $7.50 a quart, it certainly makes frequent oils changes a hard regiment to follow. Thanks Matt

  • WheelsUp

Posted April 07, 2005 - 08:53 PM

#37

$7.50 seems to be the going rate around here too, but the same shops sell MX4T for $10. By comparison, if you can find it at WalMart, MX4T is only $7.

Rotella full synth 5w-40 is about $4 by the quart, and I think $13 for a gallon.

  • DigilubeJay

Posted June 06, 2005 - 06:08 AM

#38

The Zinc and Phosphorus are the last line of defense against metal to metal contact when the oil film is broken through, and they are better at it than any substitute. The only reason they were ever withdrawn from car oils is because phosphorus shortens the effective life of catalytic converters.

P/Zn is definately used for the boundery lubrication relm after the film has been comprimised, but there are other additives that perform every bit as well, and in many cases, quite a bit better than Zinc.
Moly for one.
If you looked at a microscopic section of a cylinder wall during operation, you'd see that zinc is disctributed into the craters and valleys of the metal sort of like squishing the material in and filling the holes up. Moly, has a natural affinity to fill in these asperities by itself. It has a polar make-up that adheres itself to the valleys and craters. The moly also repels itself aiding in friction amd shock load protection. Moly is less likely to be cleaned from the metal surfaces by cleansing agents within oils, than zinc. (yes oil mfgs have to find a fine line when tweeking additives.

Other additives also perform far better than P/Zn, yet they are mucho expensive and for auto oils it doesn't make good business sense to use them.
Many of these additives are chemo-absorbed into the oxide layer of the metal and unlike very high moly content oils or other lubricating solid oils, will not effect the wet clutch performance at all.

On a side not...folks are far too afraid of friction modifiers, specifically moly. Moly can be used in way higher concentrations than what most oils have and will not effect a wet clutch's performance.
Marketing at work again.

  • curtains23

Posted June 06, 2005 - 07:54 AM

#39

Motul V300 sport, and change every 6 - 7 hours its the best you can get!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Vibeguy

Posted June 06, 2005 - 09:05 AM

#40

As a rider and lube analyst that reviews app 200 lubricant samples a month I have read many articles on the debate about the motorcycle specific oil vs automobile oils, done plenty of my own research and will offer the following PERSONAL opinions.

1) The claims by motorcycle specific lubricant manufacturers (and the dealers who sell their products) that automobile/truck specific lubricants will harm your bike are outdated and blatant "fear mongering". Oils like Shell Rotella T, Castrol, Mobil 1 (and others) have an excellent and proven track record in bikes.

2) Synthetic lubricants are superior and out perform mineral based oils in every category except price.

3) The difference between 1000ppm of an additive and 1380ppm of the same additive is insignificant and a marketing ploy. (ppm is parts per MILLION)

4) The majority of bike riders/racers change their lubricant before it needs to be but this is a case where it is better to err on the side of caution. I deal with oil sumps that contain 200 to 3000 gallons of oil, we use "on condition" oil changes, not time based oil changes. For the average rider to spend $13 to sample his or her oil after every ride does not make sense, it is cheaper to change your oil. Remember, OIL IS ALWAYS CHEAPER THAN STEEL.

5) What ever oil you use keep it CLEAN, Keep it COOL and keep it DRY and your engine will take care of you.

6) I have never met anyone who had a clutch that was in good condition, used an automotive oil and experienced slippage problems due to the additives in the oil.

Fire Away!





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