Lets talk about the 06 450


39 replies to this topic
  • Satch0922

Posted February 03, 2005 - 05:13 PM

#21

most pro level riders using the 05 YZF have been swapping the ignition "black box" with the 04 unit. I love the 04 powerband. I think the 06 shoud go back to that set up. (no I am not a pro level rider but I like the "controllable rush" the 04 gives you)

As far as the dry sump.....they need to get the oil out of the frame. It won't matter if they go aluminum if the bike still feels top heavy. The aluminu will save 4lbs but it's not all up top....you would save just as much weight up top with an 05 and an aftermarket exhaust and a few other small mods........so , they need to redesign the motor/oiling system to lower the center of gravity or they may just be chasing their tails.

  • grayracer513

Posted February 03, 2005 - 06:42 PM

#22

As far as the dry sump.....they need to get the oil out of the frame. It won't matter if they go aluminum if the bike still feels top heavy. The aluminu will save 4lbs but it's not all up top....so , they need to redesign the motor/oiling system to lower the center of gravity or they may just be chasing their tails.

The oil is currently below the bottom of the fuel tank, and most of it is lower than that. I'll bet I could put a quart oil bottle behind most people's number plate and they wouldn't be able to tell me when it was full and when it wasn't. The top heavy feel is mostly a result of the same steering geometry that makes YZ's as stable as they are. I just don't really think the dry sump system contributes that much to the feel, frankly.

  • Satch0922

Posted February 03, 2005 - 06:48 PM

#23

the 2-smoke handles like a yz...but it's not top heavy! :cry:

Think about it.....the wetsump kit claimed to save over 3 lbs and that was just getting rid of the oil in the frame. Add that to a new frame design that does not have to have all the fittings and tubes to carry hot oil and you save some more weight. Then you can make a narrower frame and a gas tank that holds the fuel lower (like the two-smokes).

You can't contribute the top heavy to the way the YZF handles. Honda has made 4 different CFR's that all handle different from the other and they don't have the top heavy feel.

Just my opinion.......

  • grayracer513

Posted February 03, 2005 - 09:57 PM

#24

And yet, when you sit on one of both with the engine off, neither feels much lighter than the other...

Something to that, no?

Look, if they can get at least 1.5L into the engine/trans (I'd really rather have them separate them, but then I'd want about 700+ for the trans and I'd still want 1.5L for the engine) without having to raise the engine to accommodate the oil storage, I'll be OK with it. I won't be pleased, but I'll be OK, and I know how important that is to you. :cry: But running a 450, or even a 250 as hard as these get used on 700cc of oil is just crazy.

On the wet sump kit, remember that of the 3 pounds saved, some was oil lines and the scavenging pump, which are all lower on the bike, so it wasn't all oil.

:cry:

  • wantmorepower

Posted February 03, 2005 - 10:26 PM

#25

I guess we'll all just have to wait and see. We can sure dream about it though!

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted February 04, 2005 - 03:11 AM

#26

yes, and how exactly does that mean they're bringing the hard hit back??????

responsiveness on the throttle has absolutely nothing to do with the extremely brutal powerband on the 03-04 450f.


now now just because it is too much for you to handle, dont go thinking everyone was afraid of it. :cry:

The complaint is that it's dead feeling, that it has zero get up and go. You would actually need to ride one to understand the difference. It's a real shame that the aftermarket CDI units on ebay arent worth a crap, cause the one that I could get to run 20 minutes without puking made a huge difference. It ran like a 450 should, not a scooter.

  • ThumperKid250F

Posted February 04, 2005 - 03:21 AM

#27

now now just because it is too much for you to handle, dont go thinking everyone was afraid of it. :cry:

The complaint is that it's dead feeling, that it has zero get up and go. You would actually need to ride one to understand the difference. It's a real shame that the aftermarket CDI units on ebay arent worth a crap, cause the one that I could get to run 20 minutes without puking made a huge difference. It ran like a 450 should, not a scooter.



on the aftermarket cdi units does it effect the bike is any bad way.. like relieablty ( spelling) or does it just bring back the so cal "hit" and leave the bike with no proplems


thanks mike

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted February 04, 2005 - 03:55 AM

#28

Well other than the fact that the first one would only pop and backfire occasionally thru the exhaust pipe, and the second would only run for 20 minutes or so before overheating and crapping out, the effect was just what the bike needs. For me at least, others may want a more vespa ride. :cry:

When the second one ran the acceleration of the bike was way way better than it was with the stock cdi. I put a procircuit Ti-4 on it, and that helped top end power as well as putting a twinair backfire filter and yz250 cage did. The 13T CS helped low end pull, but the cdi swapping was like night and day for the bike.

  • revolucien

Posted February 04, 2005 - 09:06 PM

#29

Dream '06

EFI- adjustable on demand.
Adjustable ignition mapping- Make it hit like an '03 or an '05 your choice.
Suspension- able to be ordered with spring for your weight.
Rims- Pick your color... hell they are already excels.
Frame- Aluminum same style as the '05 two smoke.
Bars- Go to 1-1/8" fat bars.
Brakes- Oversized wave rotors.

This is what I'd like to see anyway. :cry:

  • mikedabike

Posted February 04, 2005 - 09:57 PM

#30

How many who complain about the power of the 05 compared to the 04 have actually ridden both. The 05 has a slightly broaden powerband with less of a "hit" than the 04. In side by side drags with riders switching bikes these things are virtually dead even every time. I prefer the 04 for trail riding since with the "hit" I can lift the front virtually any time while for mx the 05 seems more manageable.

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  • SM421

Posted February 05, 2005 - 05:59 AM

#31

An aluminum frame is only half of what Yamaha needs to do with their 450 and their 250's. They also need to make the radiator shrouds cover the entire side of the gas tank so the graphics don't bubble up and peel off.

I won't spend 6K plus for another new Yamaha until they get with the program. Nothing worse than a new bike looking like crap with in a few months of buying it.

  • John_Lorenz

Posted February 05, 2005 - 06:42 AM

#32

Well for one I sure hope its blue :cry:
With that here is a note

What you will see in Europe GP;s The Outdoors is what the 06's will be.

Mark my words, I will bet a Starbucks coffee that when the outdoor season starts and what is in Europe is what will be on Show room floors this fall :cry:

  • Ga426owner

Posted February 05, 2005 - 08:19 AM

#33

Dream '06

EFI- adjustable on demand.
Adjustable ignition mapping- Make it hit like an '03 or an '05 your choice.
Suspension- able to be ordered with spring for your weight.
Rims- Pick your color... hell they are already excels.
Frame- Aluminum same style as the '05 two smoke.
Bars- Go to 1-1/8" fat bars.
Brakes- Oversized wave rotors.

This is what I'd like to see anyway. :cry:



This would be interesting if you could special order your own ride from the factory...bad thing is it would probably be a 9000.00 dirt bike

  • ncmountainman

Posted February 05, 2005 - 01:31 PM

#34

well your talkin' alot more for your money. i'm afraid to figure out what i've got into my bike !! but your talkin' $200 for respring(just about everyone has to) $300 for wave rotors $60 for fatbars $500adjustable ign. $1000 custom color rims , it would cost the same and would be soooo much easier,i guess the other way you'd have a spare of everything but i doubt they would tack on the full retail for the differences. :cry: i've always thought it would be a great idea to have dealer options.

  • revolucien

Posted February 05, 2005 - 02:22 PM

#35

The color rims cost the same as the non color the expensive part is if you want to throw the rims on some nice hubs. The hubs can run $350 each and more!!!
So no cost diff on just the rim and it's about $110 for each spring no matter what weight from race tech. The adjustable mapping might be $500 but it's not 500 more than the CDI that's already on there So lets say $300 more for the Iginition. We are up to $410 and don't have to pay for instalation costs or relacing costs.
$300 for the rotors sounds about right and subtract a hundred for the stock ones so $200 plus the $410 makes it $610. Fat bars maybe 20 bux more than the renthals that are on it so now $630. The aluminum frame is coming with it.
SO $630 bux more and those are retail prices on the parts... you know Yamaha is gonna get them a hell of a lot cheaper because the retailers will get a huge order. The consumer is gonna love it cause the bike will kick ass!!! AND if you saw a CRF and YZF like this on the showroom floor, the extra $630 bux would make the price tags about even... BUT which one would you pick?

  • ThrakenH04

Posted February 05, 2005 - 03:42 PM

#36

The color rims cost the same as the non color the expensive part is if you want to throw the rims on some nice hubs. The hubs can run $350 each and more!!!
So no cost diff on just the rim and it's about $110 for each spring no matter what weight from race tech. The adjustable mapping might be $500 but it's not 500 more than the CDI that's already on there So lets say $300 more for the Iginition. We are up to $410 and don't have to pay for instalation costs or relacing costs.
$300 for the rotors sounds about right and subtract a hundred for the stock ones so $200 plus the $410 makes it $610. Fat bars maybe 20 bux more than the renthals that are on it so now $630. The aluminum frame is coming with it.
SO $630 bux more and those are retail prices on the parts... you know Yamaha is gonna get them a hell of a lot cheaper because the retailers will get a huge order. The consumer is gonna love it cause the bike will kick ass!!! AND if you saw a CRF and YZF like this on the showroom floor, the extra $630 bux would make the price tags about even... BUT which one would you pick?

If they did that, the CRF owners would be crapping in their pants for buying a CRF

  • Ga426owner

Posted February 06, 2005 - 07:33 AM

#37

well your talkin' alot more for your money. i'm afraid to figure out what i've got into my bike !! but your talkin' $200 for respring(just about everyone has to) $300 for wave rotors $60 for fatbars $500adjustable ign. $1000 custom color rims , it would cost the same and would be soooo much easier,i guess the other way you'd have a spare of everything but i doubt they would tack on the full retail for the differences. :cry: i've always thought it would be a great idea to have dealer options.



Yes you are so right. And I like you, probably have close to that in my bike already..... :cry:

  • RaptorRacer888

Posted February 06, 2005 - 04:24 PM

#38

Im not for shure, but if the 06 YZ 450's get thier "hit" back, and get an aluminum frame im going to either trade in my 05 YZ 250 or sell it and go thumper. But im not shure, I think I will have to ride a 450 first though before I go 450. Anyone in Maryland want to trade bikes for a day, 05 YZ 250 for 05 YZ 450?

P P P please... :cry:

  • aford541

Posted February 06, 2005 - 07:42 PM

#39

I think it is fairly likely that Yamaha will produce a four stroke frame similar to the YZM 500, that is what the YZ 250 frame is based on more or less.
I would like them to make a complete redesign to lighten the motor.
This engine design is very similar to the original YZ 400 and Yamaha has learned alot since they designed the YZ 400.
the problem with the YZF line is the center of gravity, because of the engine and frame design the fuel is carried much higher than the Honda and Suzuki.
The additional cam and valve that the Yamaha has does not seem like that big of a deal until you figure in all the parts it takes to make them work, this adds an additional 2.5 pounds to the top of the motor where it effects the center of gravity the most. Also the Yamaha still employs a dry sump motor which helps longevity but adds weight again up high.
The Honda engine is more of an all out racing type design philosophy while the Yamaha is geared more toward longevity the five valve head has proven to be more reliable than the 4 valve Honda single cam, the problem with the single cam is that the exhaust rocker arm has a 1.94 ratio which is really high especially at 10,000 rpm plus.
With a complete redesign the Yamaha could shed 5 pounds easily without sacrificing longevity.
I think Yamaha will tweak the existing 450 power plant some and add a YZM style aluminum frame, pretty boring but it will ride alot like the 05 450 just better and like 5 pounds lighter.

I had a 03, 04 and have an 05 YZ 450, the 03 ripped it had tons of power it had this two stroke 500 like hit in the middle which was great except when the back end tried to pass the front end which happened too much it seemed like the back tire was spinning all the time, we cured this by adding a JD jetting kit that mellowed the hit but did not hurt overall power.

The 04 was supposedly mellower but I got more holeshots on that bike than the 03 it did not seem to have this massive hit but still felt like it was spinning the back tire, I called Dubach and ordered the 8 ounce flywheel weight which helped immensely Dubach ran the 6 ounce which in retrospect would have been a better choice, I also disconnected the TPS from the carb and added the power now to enhance the low end performance, that bike hauled.

The 05 seems more abrupt than either the 03 and 04 off the bottom with the same mods as the 04 but seems to lack the top end of either the 03 or 04. I am fixing that by having the head ported and installing Hot cams.
My thinking is this bike will maintain the same performance off the bottom but will regain the middle and top end performance lost in 05.

I'm excited to ride it I tore my acl 12-23 and promptly scheduled a Vasectomy which had complications and I wont be able to ride for another few weeks.

The torn ACL was nothing compared to the vasectomy, it sucked! :cry:

  • grayracer513

Posted February 07, 2005 - 09:46 AM

#40

The additional cam and valve that the Yamaha has does not seem like that big of a deal until you figure in all the parts it takes to make them work, this adds an additional 2.5 pounds to the top of the motor where it effects the center of gravity the most.

I'll bet if you weighed the exhaust cam assembly of the YZF and the 2 exhaust cam followers, and compared it to the weight of the CRF's rockers, rocker shaft, and decomp assembly (you have to include that; it's built into the YZF cam), you'd find very little difference. Slightly more material is required in the cylinder head to guide the followers in the YZF, but it lacks the cam carrier/rocker arm support assembly of the Honda, so that part is probably a wash.

Also the Yamaha still employs a dry sump motor which helps longevity but adds weight again up high.

All of the weight added by a dry sump, the extra pump and oil lines, is low on the bike. The weight of the oil is carried higher. If I put a quart oil bottle behind your fronty number plate, do you think you could tell me when it was full and when it wasn't? Most people can't. In any case, the frame could be designed to carry the oil lower, and being aluminum, would be like adding an oil cooler to the system "for free".

The Honda engine is more of an all out racing type design philosophy while the Yamaha is geared more toward longevity

Yamaha's longevity is the result of quality and engineering uncompromised by the accounting department. It is a racing engine at the level of F1 racing. Look at the result of lining 4 YZ250Fs up in the same chassis (the new R1). The CRF is a compromise between the simple efficiency of a DOHC and the lower cost SOHC designs. The stated goal was to loose the weight of the extra cam, but we already went over that. Honda's own "all out racing type" designs have been nothing but DOHC for as long as I can remember, which is longer than I care to.

The '05 CRF450R is 1.5 pounds lighter than the '05 YZ450F. That's it.

But, the YZF has over an inch more ground clearance. Then, the seat height is over 1.5 inches higher. Both these can be addressed without touching one of the most successful powerplants in motorcycle history.

I had a 03, ... it had tons of power it had this two stroke 500 like hit in the middle

I had a CR500, and I can tell you the "hit" that was associated with the '03 450 was nothing like that. It is actually a soft spot in the power curve as the engine approaches 8000. When it clears up, the return of power is misinterpreted as a hit. Once I put the PowerBomb header on it, it was gone.

The 04 was supposedly mellower but I got more holeshots on that bike than the 03 it did not seem to have this massive hit but still felt like it was spinning the back tire, ... I also disconnected the TPS from the carb

The '04 came with the previous year's GYT-R 5oz flywheel installed as OE, which was the only thing "mellower" about it. When you disconnected the TPS, you converted the ignition from a 3-D mapping unit to one that sets timing only by RPM. It may have made the bike feel better in one spot, but overall, it's not an optimal solution.

Yamaha could loose the "top heavy feel" by lowering the bike an inch, going to the aluminum frame and, IMO changing the steering geometry of the bike from the current set up to something more like what Honda uses. The first two options would be welcome, the third I'm not so sure about. But either way, a complete redesign of the engine is hardly called for, and neither is a conversion to wet sump.





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