Any problems with M1 Red Cap in 650R?


22 replies to this topic
  • resslera

Posted January 19, 2005 - 05:16 PM

#1

Getting ready to put this in my 650R and just want to make sure no one has had the dreaded clutch slip in this bike using "red cap" 15w50. Sounds like it works good in the brp but just wanted to make sure before I use it. Always used MC specefic oils in my other bikes with the exception of Chevron Delo before it went to nearly 200ppm of moly.

Not starting an oil thread, just looking to see if anyone has had trouble with this oil in their 650R.

thanks,

Aaron

  • sportbiker929

Posted January 19, 2005 - 06:28 PM

#2

Red cap will be fine, but a Diesel synthetic oil will be better. They are formulated to run under more extreme conditions. Shell Rotella syntehtic is a good choice and can be bought at Walmart for $15 or so per gal.

  • resslera

Posted January 19, 2005 - 07:16 PM

#3

I've considered the Rotella 5w40 but really wanted to go with the 50wt in the 650 which is why I wanted to use the M1 15w50. Was thinking of using the Rotella during the cold periods if necessary.

  • Roll_it_on

Posted January 19, 2005 - 07:31 PM

#4

I've been using the M1 15-50 for hundreds of miles with no issues at all in my 650R. It does create a slight hesitation when you open the throttle fast and it floods when you lay it over on the side of the hill..........OH wait that's the edelbrock justification I was thinking about :cry: sorry!

  • HeadTrauma

Posted January 19, 2005 - 11:03 PM

#5

I have red cap in my 600 right now and no slip, but I cant justify the cost. I live in a podunk town and Mobil Delvac 1 and Rotella synthetic are almost nonexistent(I havent tried the CAT repair center, though). Instead I'm going to keep using Chevron Delo 400 or regular Delvac, both 15w-40. At $5-7 a gallon, who's complaining?

  • sportbiker929

Posted January 20, 2005 - 08:34 AM

#6

If you go to Amsoil's website and sign up as a prefered cutomer. You can but their products at wholesale. The heavy duty diesel marine oil is the one to use and its like $4 something and they ship it to your door.

  • resslera

Posted January 20, 2005 - 08:44 AM

#7

Definitely using the M1 15w50 as I have already purchased it. Just wanted to do a last check and see that no one has had problems with it in the 650. Personally I think it would be hard to find a better oil for the price but worries me is that tiny bit of moly. Interesting that Mobil 1 20w50 V-twin has the same amount of moly :cry: I contacted mobil and they said their V-twin with that moly would not make a clutch slip so I'm thinking the same for the 15w50 hopefully.

I also ride a lot of street and take off pretty hard so if it slips I'll definitely know!

  • HeadTrauma

Posted January 20, 2005 - 09:52 AM

#8

Interesting that Mobil 1 20w50 V-twin has the same amount of moly :cry: I contacted mobil and they said their V-twin with that moly would not make a clutch slip so I'm thinking the same for the 15w50 hopefully.


V-twin as in Harley? I'm not well versed on their nuances, but dont they have a dry clutch? If so, that would explain why Mobil's oil wont make it slip.....

  • sportbiker929

Posted January 20, 2005 - 10:01 AM

#9

I am 99% sure redcap has no Moly.

  • resslera

Posted January 20, 2005 - 06:19 PM

#10

Hate to break it you but "red cap" 15w50 does indeed have over 60 ppm moly. If you go to www.bobistheoilguy.com you will see many posts of oil analysis done on mobil 1 oils as well as many others. Every mobil 1 oil has between 50 and 70 ppm of moly with the exception of Mobil 1 5w40 "yellow cap" which has none.

The question remains is how much moly makes a clutch slip, or what else can make a clutch slip besides moly? I tend to believe that a small amount of moly will not affect clutch operation with Mobil 1 motorcycle specific 20w50 V-twin having the same amount of moly and being MA rated as well. I'm no oil expert though. May end up going the Amsoil route after the Mobil 1 to play it safe. I think I'm a little too paranoid about this crap some times.

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  • sportbiker929

Posted January 20, 2005 - 06:49 PM

#11

Hate to break it you but "red cap" 15w50 does indeed have over 60 ppm moly. If you go to www.bobistheoilguy.com you will see many posts of oil analysis done on mobil 1 oils as well as many others. Every mobil 1 oil has between 50 and 70 ppm of moly with the exception of Mobil 1 5w40 "yellow cap" which has none.

The question remains is how much moly makes a clutch slip, or what else can make a clutch slip besides moly? I tend to believe that a small amount of moly will not affect clutch operation with Mobil 1 motorcycle specific 20w50 V-twin having the same amount of moly and being MA rated as well. I'm no oil expert though. May end up going the Amsoil route after the Mobil 1 to play it safe. I think I'm a little too paranoid about this crap some times.



ok, so i was mistaken. I know for a fact that the Amsoil I suggested has no moly.

  • qadsan

Posted January 20, 2005 - 08:22 PM

#12

The volume of moly is one issue along with particle size. The type of Moly used is another issue. I'd stay away from oils that contain the solid types of Moly (i.e. MoS2, MoS3, etc). MoTDC on the other hand comes in solution form (it's actually clear like water in pure form) and I don't believe you'll have clutch slip issues when it's used in the proper concentrations.

  • HeadTrauma

Posted January 20, 2005 - 08:26 PM

#13

Qadsan, I know you've probably answered this before, but do the heavy-duty diesel oils have ANY molybdenum at all or anything else that could be detrimental to a bike? Or are they just the next best thing to spending $15/quart on motorcycle-specific synthetic oil?

  • qadsan

Posted January 20, 2005 - 10:05 PM

#14

I wish I could answer this with certainty, but formulations can and do change and I've seen significant differences in oils I've had analyzed over the years. Most of the HDEO's (Heavy Duty Engine Oils) I've tested in the past (various 15W40, 15W50, & 20W50's) did not have moly in them and I couldn't see anything in these oils that was detrimental to my bikes as long as the service intervals were kept in check. The patterns I've seen through oil analysis on my bikes for my applications confirms to me that my best wear numbers come from higher viscosity oils that are changed often whether synthetic or not. My very best wear numbers so far have come from straight grade 40wt and 50wt racing oils, but straight grades aren't for everyone, especially when colder climates are concerned. Higher viscosity provides more cushion (takes more time to squeeze out), but it also adds more friction, which can be a bad thing. Lower viscosity = less friction = more HP, but wear protection can suffer and your engine components will rely more on the barrier additives (i.e. Zinc, Phosphate, Moly, etc) for protection. Some oils have better additive packages than others and good barrier protection is very important for our application. Both Motorcycle and HDEO's typically have better barrier protection additives than passenger car oils and they're often more shear stable than regular passenger car oils.

I try to change my oil at ~10 hour intervals unless I'm out for a long weekend of riding, in which case I'll change it immediately afterwards. My wear numbers have been good with HDEO's and changing the oil often enough is key. I've been testing numerous oils and have lots more oils to test, but I've lately been losing interest in my search for the 'best' oil because it's been an illusive and expensive battle, although quite enlightning to me. There's no doubt that some oils are better than others, but I think there's a lot of hair splitting going on in our application, especially if the oil is changed frequently. Some of the motorcycle oils I'm more partial to so far are Motul & Maxima, but there are many good choices out there. I don't think you can go wrong with any motorcycle specifc oil, especially if it's changed often enough. Motorcycle oils are the safe choice. HDEO's are also a very good choice in my opinion, but their formulations can change and unless you're having your oil regularly analyzed, you're taking a bit of a gamble.

Another thing that's very important on the 650r is the left side panel and air filter seal. There's been a number of people who have had that front clasp loosen up or pop open and the engine ingested dirt or sand. I would bet money there's been way more 650r engines damaged from injesting particulate as opposed to using a particular brand of oil. If you keep an eye on that front clasp and change your oil often, your 650r should live a long healthy life.

  • resslera

Posted January 21, 2005 - 03:34 PM

#15

HeadTrauma,

Some HDEO oils are now adding moly. Like I said, I used Chevron Delo in the past and it's new formula sporting the CI-4 Plus designation contains nearly 200ppm moly! The old Delo 400 had none. I've noticed that Shell Rotella 15w40 too has the CI-4 Plus rating which to me means it too probably has moly but I could be wrong. Shell Rotella 5w40 synthetic has only a trace amount of moly and would be a good choice in bikes but I wanted to use a thicker oil in the 650. Mobil Delvac 1300 15w40 too has a small amount of moly but many use it in bikes.

Like I said, if you are really concernced what is in a particular oil go to www.bobistheoilguy.com. You can check out the different fourms to include one called Virgin Oil Analysis forum where people post clean samples of oils that have been analyzed.

This oil BS is giving me a headache and I was very content using the diesel oils until they started putting the moly in them. This EPA crap is pissing me off with API ratings changing every few years. If Mobil-1 changes formulation to SM I think I will probably just play it safe and use MC oil like the Amsoil stuff.

Sorry this turned into another lengthy oil thread. :cry:

  • HeadTrauma

Posted January 21, 2005 - 09:55 PM

#16

Thanks qadsan and resslera :cry:.

It seems that an engine with a separate trans reservoir would be the ideal solution...

  • michaeln

Posted January 22, 2005 - 07:14 AM

#17

I've noticed that Shell Rotella 15w40 too has the CI-4 Plus rating which to me means it too probably has moly but I could be wrong.


Dunno if you are right or wrong, but so far Shell Rotella T 15w40 seems to be working great in my XR650L. Time will tell, I guess.

  • qadsan

Posted January 22, 2005 - 12:35 PM

#18

Basic oil analysis is only about $20 per sample for anyone interested, but it adds up pretty quick when you're doing 5+ samples at a time every month.

  • resslera

Posted January 22, 2005 - 04:58 PM

#19

Michaeln,

I just went to shells website yesterday, www.rotella.com and they still recommend their HDEO oils in motorcycles saying they don't add friction modifiers. It was located under questions & answers. Looks like Rotella is still good to go :cry:

  • sportbiker929

Posted January 22, 2005 - 05:16 PM

#20

The HDEO also have anti foaming agents.





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