Contemplating Total Idiocy!!


12 replies to this topic
  • csholer

Posted December 22, 2004 - 05:56 PM

#1

Hey guys, i hope that got you to look. i love my 600 and my only complaint is the weight. i am giving serios thought to fabin' up my own frame from aluminum or :cry: GASP! titanium tube. i know this sounds completely insane, but iwork with these metals everyday and can weld both proficiently. my ? is- has anyone ever done this and do they have any tips on problems to adress i.e.- fatigue areas that demand attention that sort of thing. thanks guys

  • zx7rye

Posted December 22, 2004 - 07:19 PM

#2

Highly detailed process, welding skills probably not enough. You've got to get the geometry right or you'll have an uncontrollable, downright dangerous bike. If you've got a jig and can maintain the same geometry as stock, give it a try. Quite honestly, I don't know if the weight savings you could achieve would be worth the effort. A couple pounds lost on the frame could probably be found somewhere else...for me, it's my waisteline!

  • BWB63

Posted December 22, 2004 - 08:39 PM

#3

The lightest four stroke bikes are made out of steel. Heat treated BTR/25 CrMo4 steel. Way lighter and stronger then Aluminum.

http://www.bikez.com...20224/index.jpg

  • XR4DEZ

Posted December 22, 2004 - 08:53 PM

#4

It has already been done, it's the XR650R but it's still fat.

  • HeadTrauma

Posted December 22, 2004 - 10:12 PM

#5

It has already been done, it's the XR650R but it's still fat.


Yeah, but the 650R is aluminum and still weighs a metric assload. Thats with a fair bit of weight saving effort, too.

I suppose you could copy something like the CR450 frame, but with room for a 600 engine. The problem will be in finding the forged pieces where the swingarm mounts unless you can get machined billets instead(unlikely). In that case you'd be better off duplicating the factory frame in Ti, but even then its only about 30% lighter than steel and no less than 200% the cost. Ti will probably fatigue faster than steel also, especially around the steering head and shock mount. The other option is to take a CR500 frame and stuff in the same 600. The biggest problem is the engine. It has lots of metal and holds 2.6L of oil. I bet that Husky holds less than 1, much like a CRF.

Its a novel idea, but so is putting a tube chassis under an Edsel; it may save alot of weight, but was it worth it?

  • XR4DEZ

Posted December 23, 2004 - 04:39 PM

#6

I asked BBR if they did a frame for the 600 and they're the ones that gave me the 650 line.They also told me they worked with Honda to develop the frame for the 650.I wonder if you could shoehorn a 600 motor into a CRF450 frame.I saw a CRF rolling chasis on Ebay once but that was awhile ago.

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  • mikekay

Posted December 23, 2004 - 08:04 PM

#7

Actually the aluminum frame of the 650R is 2 pounds HEAVIER than the (almost) identical steel frame for the XR600.

SRC.net has good pics (the frames look identical) and an article about this subject....

Of course the 650R frame wont break welds like the 600 frame...on the other hand the bottom of the Al frame is well known for getting smooshed....

I for one am totally in favor of the KTM style STEEL frames--they are lighter, stronger and much narrower...but guys buy Al frame bikes couse its trick or something...and the moto mags are to MX biased to take a serious look at the needs of larger off road bikes...so we get heavier, wider, AL frames---except for the KTM's--who know more about off road than anyone else...

Ti frames? Or at least sub frames...that is an interesting one...i have thought a bit about that...the mountain bike people have been all over Ti frames for a long time...i suspect some of the specialty high end mountain bike shops who do custom frames could EASILY make you a Ti replica of the XR600 frame....SRC.net has an article on weight savings on the big XR's with the use of TI...its shocking how light one could make these bikes...figure $5K for your first frame? Just a guess....not to bad.

Its always surprising to me how totally conservative off road motorcycle technology is...why are mountain bikers the first off roaders with HID lights, Ti frames, and fuel injected dirt bikes???

  • HeadTrauma

Posted December 23, 2004 - 11:07 PM

#8

Its always surprising to me how totally conservative off road motorcycle technology is...why are mountain bikers the first off roaders with HID lights, Ti frames, and fuel injected dirt bikes???


They had the HIDs first for I dont why, the Ti frames because a Ti mountain bike costs the same or less than a dirtbike and a Ti dirtbike would cost the same as a small SUV. Last I looked, Cannondales are rare, hard to get parts for/worth more AS parts, and you cant exactly buy a new one anymore. Hmm, maybe I can get the EFI parts somewhere....

Hell, why not a carbon composite perimeter frame? Dont forget the magnesium triples, hubs, and swingarm. That might look pretty evil with gold ano'd mag parts.

  • mikekay

Posted December 23, 2004 - 11:45 PM

#9

actually custom Ti frames for mountain bikes--and i am talking about custom welded by a dude in California...are about $2000 and up--i am sure you could get one for a XR600 for under $5000. There are several companies in China that will build stuff like that if you send them blueprints...

Cost of building with Ti is not all in the materials--its availablitly of the stock, welding know how, etc.--plus the 'exclusivity' of the materail. In fact Ti stock out of China is not all that expensive any more....Precision Concpets now has a handle on some rear shock springs made of Ti...as for carbon fiber frames--like you its something i have thought about.

i bought some carbon fiber and the 105/205 resins from carbon.com and find its very easy to form stuff with carbon fiber--theres nothing exotic or difficult about working with it...about as difficult as fiberglass-in fact it might be easier...carbon.com also sells kevlar for the ultimate in composites...well then there is cherm (sic?) that is the top secret Ti composite used on the M1 battle tank---but its not available to the public. The whole high price exclusivity thing with carbon fiber is total bull crap. Everything from surfboards to swing arms should be made of carbon fiber--and in the future they all will be. its just ignorance.

a sandwich of kevlar and carbon fibers would be great for stuff like exhaust pipes, sub frame/rear fenders, skid plates, radiators, fairings, levers, perches, fork sliders? and engine cases...it will just take someone sitting down and doing it for our bike...

oh yeah--Cannondales. I rode one of the later models in Baja--it was awesome. Very innovative. They where under funded and 3-4 years away from having it all worked out. ATK now owns their stuff--and yes they have improved things a bit--making some great mid-size dirt bikes. In fact i might race Dakar with one next year...To bad the US cycle press ripped Cannondale from day one....can you imagine if the Cannondale footpeg fell off what they would have said?
:cry:

  • HeadTrauma

Posted December 24, 2004 - 11:13 PM

#10

i bought some carbon fiber and the 105/205 resins from carbon.com and find its very easy to form stuff with carbon fiber--theres nothing exotic or difficult about working with it...about as difficult as fiberglass-in fact it might be easier...carbon.com also sells kevlar for the ultimate in composites...well then there is cherm (sic?) that is the top secret Ti composite used on the M1 battle tank---but its not available to the public. The whole high price exclusivity thing with carbon fiber is total bull crap. Everything from surfboards to swing arms should be made of carbon fiber--and in the future they all will be. its just ignorance.


oh yeah--Cannondales. I rode one of the later models in Baja--it was awesome. Very innovative. They where under funded and 3-4 years away from having it all worked out. ATK now owns their stuff--and yes they have improved things a bit--making some great mid-size dirt bikes. In fact i might race Dakar with one next year...To bad the US cycle press ripped Cannondale from day one....can you imagine if the Cannondale footpeg fell off what they would have said?
:cry:


Yeah, but did your carbon fiber stuff have to be heat cured in a vacuum oven? I think thats how its usually done in the aerospace composites class here at the college.

If Cannondale was under funded in just producing the bike, they surely didnt have the spare dough to give magazines in return for good reviews. Honda on the other hand....

  • csholer

Posted December 25, 2004 - 09:19 AM

#11

hey, thanks for the replies everybody. mike what is the exact ww. of src.net? tried typing that and got security response systems inc. also good luck at dakar dude. p.s. just got an edelbrock under the tree!! i'm going to make up some stainless needles w/ glass filled teflon tips and try those to see if i can fix this problem everyone is talkin' about. i may also make up a stainless seat and try this first. did i mention that i run a machine shop with 2 cnc mills and a cnc lathe + a dozen or so manual machines and fabrication equipment? thanks again later. chris

  • beer_studd_76

Posted December 25, 2004 - 09:10 PM

#12

Hey guys, i hope that got you to look. i love my 600 and my only complaint is the weight. i am giving serios thought to fabin' up my own frame from aluminum or :cry: GASP! titanium tube. i know this sounds completely insane, but iwork with these metals everyday and can weld both proficiently. my ? is- has anyone ever done this and do they have any tips on problems to adress i.e.- fatigue areas that demand attention that sort of thing. thanks guys


it'd be tough to get it right, but if you did it'd be the coolest thing around. however, i agree that the weight saving won't be worth it. it's not the frame that makes the XR600 heavy.


jeremiah

  • mikekay

Posted December 26, 2004 - 10:36 PM

#13

Chris--
try srcinc.net
wheres your shop?
I am always looking for a good fab guy!!
wish me luck (i am gonna need it)
-Mike





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