Edelbrock Carb problems again


126 replies to this topic
  • qadsan

Posted December 13, 2004 - 06:36 PM

#21

Some fuels will leave deposits and some are more corrosive than others (i.e. Nutec). U4 will offer more of a performance increase on the modern higher revving 4 strokes (CRF250, CRF450, YZF/WRF, etc) than it will on our slow running torque monters. As far as I know, U4 doesn't leave deposits like some of the other fuels, but you must keep it sealed in a Air Tight Metal container or else you'll loose what you're paying for (more performance). It definitely has an odor to it :cry: The shelf life of U4 in a sealed metal container is ~5 to ~9 months from what I recall, but only 5 hours in a plastic container in the shade and just a mere ~45 minutes in the sun :cry:

U4 is good stuff, but per comments from Honda's Bruce Ogilvie...

"A stock XR650 will run better on pump gas than a high-octane race fuel, which needs a higher com*pression ratio to be effective. (All gas in the Honda pits is Chevron 92- or VP 93-octane unleaded.) "

  • mikekay

Posted December 13, 2004 - 06:45 PM

#22

hmmmm.

Gasoline storage....hmmm. Ya know something, i think that might be part of the problem. I run a lot of gasoline that has been stored in 1 gallon plastic milk jugs. Not sure but i think thats PET. Whatever it is its not rated for gasoline....i wonder if the edelbrock issue is related to storing gas in plastic....never thought about that...but that is the difference between my edelbrock and my buddies bikes with the edelbrock that never have the problem...hmm.

  • qadsan

Posted December 13, 2004 - 07:43 PM

#23

In a plastic container, U4 simply loses its performance edge and you'll be left with a sweet smelling 94 octane fuel that performs similar to a top grade of pump fuel, but the longer it sits, the weaker it gets (the lighter additives that offer performance / throttle response will evaporate).

If any type of fuel is left in the carb long enough, it will turn into varnish/gum, which often affects the float needle's performance and if its bad enough, it can plug jets & passages. Sometimes we have pump fuel for our toys that sits for months, so we use a fuel stabilizer (Stabil) to keep things fresher and we keep it in a metal container. If you do use a fuel stabilizer, you must put it in while the fuel is fresh. Putting fuel stabilizer in old fuel does nothing but waste your fuel stabilizer. I'm always in the habbit of draining the float bowls on our carbs after every trip and I know this contributes to less long term issues no matter which bike/carb it is.

  • jayrider2003

Posted December 13, 2004 - 10:08 PM

#24

As another data point, I couldn't start the bike (after being idle for 4 weeks or so), and found no gas in the bowl. I wacked the back/side of the edelbrock, and gas flowed forth. Never had this problem before in last 18 months of having this carb. I mean, it started right up last spring. Something else to worry about.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted December 13, 2004 - 10:09 PM

#25

I do use fuel that sometimes sits in my plastic fuel containers. Sometimes it sits for a couple months before the container is empty. The reason it sits is I don't always fuel my bikes from my containers. Sometimes its more convenient to fuel from a pump on the way to the riding area. I still don't see how this would cause the fuel valve to act up in an Edelbrock when it has no effect in a stock carb. It is just one more possibility to consider.

BTY, which cleaning solution do you feel works best when cleaning your carbs? What kind of procedures do you use?

I do enjoy and appreciate all the input Im receiving in this thread. Thanks guys.

  • qadsan

Posted December 14, 2004 - 07:18 AM

#26

I don't clean carbs that often anymore, but whenever one of my friends or a friend of a friend bought a used bike, they'd sometimes bring it to me to get it running better and somehow I've ended up being the wrench in these group rides for dozens of years. I've seen a lot of crusty carbs and while carb cleaner is sometimes necessary, WD40 and a toothbrush often used to do the trick pretty well for both the inside and outside. The spray tube came in handy for cleaning passages.

Sorry to hear your carb has given you this grief. Hopefully it turns out to be something simple. It's no fun when the bike doesn't run.

  • MotorPsychoSport

Posted December 14, 2004 - 03:50 PM

#27

I just had a really interesting thought about the float shut off needle design of the Edlebrock carburetor. That needle lays on it's side where most carb needles reside straight up and down in their own valve needle seat. Could the fact that the edlebrock float needle positioned on its side like it is promote a much faster method for it to stick closed like it has been doing to a lot of us?

  • SNOMORE

Posted December 14, 2004 - 04:51 PM

#28

Hey Guys,

I am here to back up Old Man Time 100%. I am the one he referred to at the beginning of this thread as having to have sent my complete fuel bowl back to Edelbrock for a "new and improved" inlet valve, and after 2 rides it stuck again! It has nothing to do with gumming up or poor gas, it IS the valve!

Here is how I know:

The carb came stock with a spring loaded needle that did not attach to the float in any way. After my 1st go around with the stuck valve, I called Edelbrock and Chris sent me out a new non-spring loaded needle witrh a clip that attached to the float that would supposedly pull the needle open when needed. Why would they have designed a new needle if there was not a problem with the original design? anyway, it still stuck closed, so I sent the entire carb to Rob Barnum who agreed with the diagnosis about the stuck needle and said he would work with Edelbrock to fix it. He called me and said that Edelbrock told him it was not the needle but the banjo fitting that was causing the problem and they had redesigned the inlet valve AGAIN , this time with drilled holes in the inlet valve as opposed to slots. He replaced the valve with the new style and replaced the clip style needle with the old spring loaded type. Needless to say, it stuck again, so I called Edelbrock again and the said to send it back and they would replace the entire fuel bowl. This time it came back with a new bowl, the old style slot valve and a new style needle without a spring loaded ball bearing at the end.

Just to clarify: This is the 3rd style needle and the 2nd style valve that Edelbrock THEMSELVES have supplied to alleviate this problem Why would they do that if they did not know there was a problem with the carb? AND IT STILL STICKS!

It is NOT a fuel issue, it is a carb issue - It has since turned to winter here in Colorado and I had kind of given up in frustration since I can't ride anyhow. But this thread has renewed my dissapointment and frustration, especially because I agree whole heartedly that the carb is wonderful WHEN IT WORKS!

Old Man Time - I tried to PM you but had difficulty in doing so. Please contact me at jeffbay@earthlink.net and we'll contact Edelbrock together and hopefully get this thing straightened out

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted December 14, 2004 - 07:06 PM

#29

Hey Guys,

I am here to back up Old Man Time 100%. I am the one he referred to at the beginning of this thread as having to have sent my complete fuel bowl back to Edelbrock for a "new and improved" inlet valve, and after 2 rides it stuck again! It has nothing to do with gumming up or poor gas, it IS the valve!

Here is how I know:

The carb came stock with a spring loaded needle that did not attach to the float in any way. After my 1st go around with the stuck valve, I called Edelbrock and Chris sent me out a new non-spring loaded needle witrh a clip that attached to the float that would supposedly pull the needle open when needed. Why would they have designed a new needle if there was not a problem with the original design? anyway, it still stuck closed, so I sent the entire carb to Rob Barnum who agreed with the diagnosis about the stuck needle and said he would work with Edelbrock to fix it. He called me and said that Edelbrock told him it was not the needle but the banjo fitting that was causing the problem and they had redesigned the inlet valve AGAIN , this time with drilled holes in the inlet valve as opposed to slots. He replaced the valve with the new style and replaced the clip style needle with the old spring loaded type. Needless to say, it stuck again, so I called Edelbrock again and the said to send it back and they would replace the entire fuel bowl. This time it came back with a new bowl, the old style slot valve and a new style needle without a spring loaded ball bearing at the end.

Just to clarify: This is the 3rd style needle and the 2nd style valve that Edelbrock THEMSELVES have supplied to alleviate this problem Why would they do that if they did not know there was a problem with the carb? AND IT STILL STICKS!

It is NOT a fuel issue, it is a carb issue - It has since turned to winter here in Colorado and I had kind of given up in frustration since I can't ride anyhow. But this thread has renewed my dissapointment and frustration, especially because I agree whole heartedly that the carb is wonderful WHEN IT WORKS!

Old Man Time - I tried to PM you but had difficulty in doing so. Please contact me at jeffbay@earthlink.net and we'll contact Edelbrock together and hopefully get this thing straightened out


We have exactly the same problem. It is obvious that more people than just a handful are having this problem. What ever the problem is it doesn't occur in all the carbs. There has to be some kind of common production difference in our carbs from the ones that never give anyone a problem. If there are any others on this list who have experienced this problem we need to approach Edelbrock as a group. They have designed an awsome carb with a flaw in or directly related to the valve. I'm glad you had Rob Barnum work with you. Many on this list who think it is something we the owners are doing wrong. They respect Rob Barnum and if he acknowledged the problem as being real they may begin to realize that some of us really do have carbs with some kind of defect. I emailed you concerning this matter. :cry:

  • zx7rye

Posted December 14, 2004 - 07:48 PM

#30

I do use fuel that sometimes sits in my plastic fuel containers. Sometimes it sits for a couple months before the container is empty. The reason it sits is I don't always fuel my bikes from my containers. Sometimes its more convenient to fuel from a pump on the way to the riding area. I still don't see how this would cause the fuel valve to act up in an Edelbrock when it has no effect in a stock carb. It is just one more possibility to consider.

BTY, which cleaning solution do you feel works best when cleaning your carbs? What kind of procedures do you use?

I do enjoy and appreciate all the input Im receiving in this thread. Thanks guys.



OMT..I have had good experiences with standard Pep Boys/Autozone carb cleaners. I guess if you wanted a name brand...go with Gunk. When cleaning carbs, I pay particular attention to the float valve and don't go sparingly (typically I will use a full can on an inline 4 rack)... Any bit of debris can hang it up and leave a float open for fuel to poor into your motor (also another good reason to make sure that petcock is off when the bike isn't running). I have 1st hand experience in the frustration of diagnosing carbs. Many FCR's have driven me nuts (especially the ones on my streetbike). Good luck with the carb though and stay on Edelbrock if you feel it is an inferior part.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • TimBrp

Posted December 15, 2004 - 06:51 AM

#31

I've just decided to stay with my stock carb. Based on all of this negative feedback. I'm going to call Rob @ Barnums today and let him know also. He is a hell of a guy. I called him for price and availability for the carbs and we talked for over 45 minutes about our pigs. Very insightful guy.

  • BRP27

Posted December 15, 2004 - 10:36 AM

#32

What about running the bike with the gas petcock off to empty the bowl? Less time in the bowl equals less varnish/ gunk. The bike sets there for a week at a time, sometimes two weeks before being used again.

  • BWB63

Posted December 15, 2004 - 12:19 PM

#33

I don't know anything about this yet but, I got to see a Edelbrock put through most of the steps of assembly, the testing, how and why it works. Mine didn't work the first time it was put on my bike. It was installed at Edelbocks shop and tested on there Dyno. They changed the bowl, the valve, the float. Bored it out. Flow tested. I don't think it's gunk that is doing it.....just a thought but, I think it's the needle in the valve sticking to each other. Some, kind of metal bonding from laying flat insted of upright. It's the same type of valve that is used in some automotive carbuetors. One of the ridge on the needle likes a spot on the inside of the valve housing and dosn't want to let go. That is why it is hit and miss. Coating both the needle and the valve might be the ticket?????

  • Rockjockey

Posted December 15, 2004 - 12:50 PM

#34

There is no gunk I run mine dry everytime it goes in the garage.I think it is a design/engineering flaw,but whats the cure? :cry:

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted December 15, 2004 - 01:06 PM

#35

I don't know anything about this yet but, I got to see a Edelbrock put through most of the steps of assembly, the testing, how and why it works. Mine didn't work the first time it was put on my bike. It was installed at Edelbocks shop and tested on there Dyno. They changed the bowl, the valve, the float. Bored it out. Flow tested. I don't think it's gunk that is doing it.....just a thought but, I think it's the needle in the valve sticking to each other. Some, kind of metal bonding from laying flat insted of upright. It's the same type of valve that is used in some automotive carbuetors. One of the ridge on the needle likes a spot on the inside of the valve housing and dosn't want to let go. That is why it is hit and miss. Coating both the needle and the valve might be the ticket?????


I suspect your on to something. I don't know if coating is the answer but I agree some kind of bonding is taking place.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted December 15, 2004 - 01:08 PM

#36

What about running the bike with the gas petcock off to empty the bowl? Less time in the bowl equals less varnish/ gunk. The bike sets there for a week at a time, sometimes two weeks before being used again.


Hey man, I tried draining the bowl and it didn't work. Also there was no gunk build up.

  • mountainrider

Posted December 15, 2004 - 05:28 PM

#37

I am glad that I still have my stock carb.This was a great thread.

  • CapXR650R

Posted December 16, 2004 - 12:39 PM

#38

Some, kind of metal bonding from laying flat insted of upright.


I don't think it is "bonding," rather I think that the design is subject to high friction. I've attached a link to an image of the carb from the Edelbrock site.

Click here to see a cutaway image of the QS carb

The problem with sideways designs is that gravity will tend to create both a normal force along the entire lower surface of the fuel entry channel, and also a rotational moment that creates normal forces at the upper-left and lower-right in the image. These normal forces create friction that impedes free movement of the valve.

The solution is to reduce the coefficient of friction between the brass valve and the aluminum fuel channel. The most effective way would be to polish the mating surfaces to a very high surface finish. Also, special care should be taken to eliminate any burrs on the lower-right edge of the fuel channel. Similarly, remove burrs from the upper-right end of the valve.

Anti-friction coatings might be effective. I suspect that the fuel would disolve most coatings very quickly. However, it seems possible that a Moly coating might create a lasting bond on the aluminum channel.

Hope this helps,

Cap

  • Rockjockey

Posted December 16, 2004 - 12:42 PM

#39

Maybe we need a needle with no ridges to adhear to the inside of the valve housing. I think Edelbrock needs to come up with a real fix to this problem,as I would not want to go in and remove any metal as it might get worse and you know what they will say if sent back to them after the fact.

  • mikekay

Posted December 16, 2004 - 03:44 PM

#40

WOW.

Thats all i can say.

Scary, WOW.

3 months ago we all agreed the Edelbrock was the single best mod one could do for the bike.

Now we all agree that it has design flaws and we should keep our stock carb.

This is the strangest thread i have ever followed on TT.

OldManTime didnt set his Edelbrock pumper correctly, his ignorance about the product was the problem--not the carb itself...but now we are all saying its a horrible product and canceling orders?

Yeah OK so a couple riders have had hiccups. Edelbrock has the best customer service on the planet. Period. What say you to that? Send it back to them and they will check it out and rebuild it if necessary--FOR FREE. No Questions Asked. What say you to that?

Its a carb--not a plastic fender or some other easy to make thing. Only your bikes front suspension is more fickle than a carb. Any carb.

In the last year i have bought: valves that where out of round, fork springs that where of un-equal tensions, a tank that rubbed, a computer that fogged up and then stopped running, and a cable that snapped after 10 minutes of use.
I didnt rag on ANY of these companies--they where all cool with me and replaced the parts. Stuff like that is going to happen. But none of these companies was a great to deal with as Edelbrock. Period.

You guys are dumb. Thats all i can say. You dont know what you are talking about. Somehow i mean that respectfully--i really do--i just dont know how to sugar coat it.

The Edelbrock carb is a break-thru design in carburation. It is ALMOST as reliable as a tank--and a hell of a lot more reliable than the 30 year old design of the Keihin.

It is externally adjustable.
It imporves the bikes fuel economy a good 20% or so.
It improves off-idle response
It self adjusts for altitude changes.
It has a fuel cell and wont flood-ever.
It will run on its side, or upside down for that matter.
It gives 1+ more horsepower to the motor.
It is made by hard working, dirt bike racing guys right here in the USA.

How anyone could say the Keihin or the Mikuni are in any way in the same league is beyond me. You ever try re-jetting your Mikuni on a ride from 4500ft to 9,678 feet....i.e. from Mikes Sky Ranch to the Observatory? Your bike wont run up there...but my Edelbrock carbed bike will!
Ever try kickstarting your bike after stalling it going up a rooted, muddy, rocky trail? The Keihin WONT start on a steep hill....my Edelbrock will start 1st kick!

You guys are acting like lemmings...one guy didnt know what he was doing--blames the carb, and now everyone is following him and running off the cliff. Its like the Salem Witch Trials. Crazy.

Again--go call Jason at Edelbrock if you have concerns or issues. I drove over and saw him yesterday--had my carb rebuilt for the Dakar. Guy was awesome. Knows his shiite. Unlike some of us...

Now if you guys want to trash the CRF250X...well...

Respectfully,
Mike





Related Content

Forums
Photo

Engine Loping/Sputtering by tcaldwell


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   XR600/650
  • 2 replies
Forums
Photo

93 xr650l Restoration Project by Zigster


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   XR600/650
  • 17 replies
Forums
Photo

XR650L super moto wheels by greggkklee


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   XR600/650
  • Hot  28 replies
Wiki
Want to add a kickstart to your XR650L?  Here's how - last post by clc3251

Want to add a kickstart to your XR650L? Here's how


Articles
  • 0 replies
Forums
Photo
Washington

Cle Elum Sunday 5/29: Looking for dual sport tips by TigerTanker


Dirt Bike   Dirt Bike Regional Discussion   Northwest
  • Hot  32 replies
 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.