Race Gas-Whats the deal????


18 replies to this topic
  • dunecj2a

Posted December 09, 2004 - 03:13 PM

#1

:cry: Does running higher octane make any difference in a 450? I have read alot of stuff about VP U4 and how it gives power gains of up to 3 hp. I cant afford $10 a gallon gas :lol: I can get 100 octane unleaded for $4.00 a gallon and was wondering if it would make any difference from 91 pump gas??? :cry:
I was also told not to run leaded race gas and that it may damage the valves :cry: Is this true :cry: Thanx for any advice :cry:

  • grayracer513

Posted December 09, 2004 - 06:21 PM

#2

To start with, U4 is only 93 octane, as I recall. It will give you more power (I don't know about 3), but not because it's a high octane fuel.

Octane, by itself is only a measure of how well a fuel resists spark knock and pressure induced detonation. It has nothing whatever to do with the energy content of the fuel. The paper at this link explains the entire question in detail.

http://www.faqs.org/...line-faq/part3/

By the same token, it is also not true that too much octane, by itself, causes a loss of power, either. Both sides of the story may be true with certain fuels in certain circumstances, but that part of it really depends on the nature of the fuel itself, and the chemical agent(s) used to raise the octane number. If toluene, for instance is used to bump the octane, which it could do in some low octane fuels, you might gain power over pump premium. If more inert compounds, like lead, were added, you might lose some.

Once you have a fuel that your bike will run without knocking, the octane is high enough. Buying any more than that is a waste of time and money.

:cry:

  • starttman

Posted December 10, 2004 - 03:43 PM

#3

I cant afford $10 a gallon gas :cry: I



you ride a 6000.00 machine and you whine about 10.00???!!!

do the 100 oct. and you'll be fine. or go half race gas ,half high octane...I have great luck with that.

chris

  • wolfwood

Posted December 10, 2004 - 09:03 PM

#4

you set ur bike up to run the octane lvl you are gona run the most. leaded gas will not damage the valves it does the oposit. lead gas lubercates the valves so i would run it to makes the motor last longer.

  • crayztwentyseven

Posted December 11, 2004 - 01:44 AM

#5

Higher octane will do nothing as far as adding power, it may actually decrease it. because it will make your engine run hotter. the secret ingredient to U4 is that it is oxygenated, if I recall I think it is has 6% more oxygen per unit than pump gas, and that makes a huge difference. Running higher octane is a complete waste of time and money unless you have higher than stock compression, or really radical timing. Also I agree with wolfwood, leaded gas lubricates better.

  • BC3

Posted December 12, 2004 - 05:49 PM

#6

I have told this story a few times but each time is kinda enlightening so here it is: When I was 17 I worked at a shop in Richmond CA by the name of Karl's
Motors......What made this shop so different was they had 8 different lines
of M/Cs BSA, Vilocette, BMW, Yamaha, Greeves, Hodaka,Tohatsu,and Ducati
they also sold and serviced Vespa and Lambretta scooters.....needless to say
if you were a mechanic there (like me) you had to be well rounded, No not fat)
Anyway Dick Mann was one of the mechanics along with guys named Henry
and Don. Since Buggs (Dick Mann ) was nat'l #1 dirt tracker I respected everthing he said about M/Cs......So when he walked up to me one day when I was working on my Ducati shorttracker, and asked BC can you ride that thing WFO all the time at the races never shutting off the throttle? I looked at him
with a surprised look and said "No Way" His reply was Then why do want it to go faster? That statement has stuck with me for 36 years....and it still
applies......why do you need gas to make more HP when the bike was [COLOR=Red]DESIGNED[/COLOR]to run pump gas?

  • grayracer513

Posted December 12, 2004 - 07:44 PM

#7

Higher octane will do nothing as far as adding power, it may actually decrease it. because it will make your engine run hotter.

Not true. Higher octane by itself will not change the temperature at which the engine runs. The fuel formulation of a particular fuel that happens to be higher octane than your previous fuel might, but not because of the octane. In fact the opposite is more often true of cheaper high octane pump gasolines. In the car biz, we would alays start to get complaints this time of year of cars that start OK but won't idle cold, or die when putting them in gear cold. It was almost always a car designed to run regular with a tank full of cheap premium. The gas wouldn't keep the combustion chamber hot enough to stay running.

leaded gas will not damage the valves it does the oposit. lead gas lubercates the valves so i would run it to makes the motor last longer.

Also false. The YZF was designed to run on unleaded fuels and has valve and valve seat materials chosen for the task. The only thing you will get out of a leaded fuel is shorter plug life, and lead deposits in the combustion chamber that may actually lead to hot-spot induced pre-ignition. This is an old tale that goes back to the days when unleaded fuel was first introduced. It was true for pre-1972 engines, but has had no basis in fact for at least twenty years.

  • yz426onNOS

Posted December 13, 2004 - 03:32 AM

#8

Don't buy vp U4 It is crap! If you get anything get Klotz! It is by far the best.

www.klotz-lube.com/

As for running it in a stock bike with normal compression, that is a waste. 92 octane arco will do just fine! You want more power? Start upgradeing. Or as bc said "you can't use the power you have now". So why waste the money. I had my bike set up for sand drags, I could ride it WFO through the hole race!

  • sirthumpalot

Posted December 13, 2004 - 04:33 AM

#9

To start with, U4 is only 93 octane, as I recall. It will give you more power (I don't know about 3), but not because it's a high octane fuel.

Octane, by itself is only a measure of how well a fuel resists spark knock and pressure induced detonation. It has nothing whatever to do with the energy content of the fuel. The paper at this link explains the entire question in detail.

http://www.faqs.org/...line-faq/part3/

By the same token, it is also not true that too much octane, by itself, causes a loss of power, either. Both sides of the story may be true with certain fuels in certain circumstances, but that part of it really depends on the nature of the fuel itself, and the chemical agent(s) used to raise the octane number. If toluene, for instance is used to bump the octane, which it could do in some low octane fuels, you might gain power over pump premium. If more inert compounds, like lead, were added, you might lose some.

Once you have a fuel that your bike will run without knocking, the octane is high enough. Buying any more than that is a waste of time and money.

:cry:


Wow, could not have said it better myself! :cry:

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  • 642MX

Posted December 13, 2004 - 11:00 AM

#10

Okay good info, so someone explain how my 02 YZ426 with a stock engine (thats never been touched) with stock jetting runs smoother, runs cooler and has more snap running on Citgo 110 leaded than 93 pump gas. Now I have tried Renegade 101 octane without lead and it ran no better than 93 pump, so does the lead make a difference? I think so. As far as shorter spark plug life, I can tell no difference.

  • Dolce_Grappa

Posted December 13, 2004 - 11:53 AM

#11

What I've recently read in MXA or TransWorld, leaded fuel will cause damage to the coating Titanium valves. Either way spec fuel allows you to have consistent Octane numbers, which allows for even jetting.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 13, 2004 - 12:58 PM

#12

Okay good info, so someone explain how my 02 YZ426 with a stock engine (thats never been touched) with stock jetting runs smoother, runs cooler and has more snap running on Citgo 110 leaded than 93 pump gas. Now I have tried Renegade 101 octane without lead and it ran no better than 93 pump, so does the lead make a difference? I think so. As far as shorter spark plug life, I can tell no difference.

It can only be because the fuel itself is better suited to your bike and/or your location. Neither the high octane or the lead offer any benefit to you at all. Well, lead does make reading plugs easier, but that's it.

I'm frankly not certain that lead deposits damage the nitride coatings on valves, but I don't believe Yamaha's valves are coated anyway (they don't need it). Either way, the lead certainly won't protect them.

The point made about consistent quality is valid at the time of manufacture, but many modern oxygenated gasolines must be stored in near perfect conditions to avoid deteriorating. They can be a bit less stable, and some of the oxygenating components are water soluble, and will absorb moisture from the air if over-exposed. Here again, the key is the chemical consistency of the fuel, not the octane numbers.

  • 642MX

Posted December 13, 2004 - 02:08 PM

#13

It can only be because the fuel itself is better suited to your bike and/or your location. Neither the high octane or the lead offer any benefit to you at all. Well, lead does make reading plugs easier, but that's it.

I'm frankly not certain that lead deposits damage the nitride coatings on valves, but I don't believe Yamaha's valves are coated anyway (they don't need it). Either way, the lead certainly won't protect them.

The point made about consistent quality is valid at the time of manufacture, but many modern oxygenated gasolines must be stored in near perfect conditions to avoid deteriorating. They can be a bit less stable, and some of the oxygenating components are water soluble, and will absorb moisture from the air if over-exposed. Here again, the key is the chemical consistency of the fuel, not the octane numbers.


It's either the added octane over the pump or the lead. I don't think its a one case deal. My fiancee has a 03 YZF250 and it reacts the same way with the leaded fuel. So what gives? Its okay if you don't know, I'm not trying to piss you off, I'm just wondering why leaded gas performs better when some people say it don't. :cry:

  • grayracer513

Posted December 13, 2004 - 05:15 PM

#14

I can't speak to the question of how your individual bike runs on a particular gasoline. For one thing, we don't got no leaded gas here in California (it's a felony, I think). If you find that any fuel you use runs better in your bike than another, run it. The extra octane above 92 won't help you, since the bike only requires 91/92 to avoid knocking, but as long as it runs OK, it won't hurt either.

I do know that some gasolines in any grade will outperform others of the same grade because of their individual chemistry. I also know that tetraethyl lead is a relatively inert component, and adds little or no energy content to the fuel. And, at the certain risk of repeating myself, octane is only a measure of a fuel's resistance to combustion knock, nothing more. It measures only one of a gasolines many characteristics.

Gasoline is a pretty complex subject, and there are a lot of variables involved, so if you really want to get into it, go to the link I posted earlier. There are 4 parts to the whitepaper this gentleman has written, and the 3rd, the one I posted, deals specifically with octane ratings. It's written in an understandable dialect of English, and it will answer all your questions.
:cry:

  • 642MX

Posted December 13, 2004 - 05:24 PM

#15

You can't get leaded fuels in California? I guess I'll stay in Indiana and keep buying the leaded stuff. If your ever in the neighborhood, please look me up. I'll give you some leaded fuel to try.

  • cyclonebuzz

Posted December 13, 2004 - 06:38 PM

#16

Not true. Higher octane by itself will not change the temperature at which the engine runs. The fuel formulation of a particular fuel that happens to be higher octane than your previous fuel might, but not because of the octane. In fact the opposite is more often true of cheaper high octane pump gasolines. In the car biz, we would alays start to get complaints this time of year of cars that start OK but won't idle cold, or die when putting them in gear cold. It was almost always a car designed to run regular with a tank full of cheap premium. The gas wouldn't keep the combustion chamber hot enough to stay running.


Also false. The YZF was designed to run on unleaded fuels and has valve and valve seat materials chosen for the task. The only thing you will get out of a leaded fuel is shorter plug life, and lead deposits in the combustion chamber that may actually lead to hot-spot induced pre-ignition. This is an old tale that goes back to the days when unleaded fuel was first introduced. It was true for pre-1972 engines, but has had no basis in fact for at least twenty years.



well i am sorry but leaded gas dose make the bike last longer, i know it has titanium valves witch dose not stand up to well to friction. true it is set up for 93 octane but i have had plenty of time to look at the motor of this bike and the newer r1 they are basically the same i have seen a r1 bend a valve bc the coating they put on the valves wore off. the leaded gas lubs it very well. just that race gas is so much better quality than pump it keeps your crabs clean.

  • Ga426owner

Posted December 13, 2004 - 06:50 PM

#17

well i am sorry but leaded gas dose make the bike last longer, i know it has titanium valves witch dose not stand up to well to friction. true it is set up for 93 octane but i have had plenty of time to look at the motor of this bike and the newer r1 they are basically the same i have seen a r1 bend a valve bc the coating they put on the valves wore off. the leaded gas lubs it very well. just that race gas is so much better quality than pump it keeps your crabs clean.


well I don't know about all this but VP U4 works wonders in my 450...... :cry:

  • cyclonebuzz

Posted December 13, 2004 - 06:54 PM

#18

well i run the sunnoco myself. its just what i perfer but i been running leaded for a while. yeah the valves on the yz dose have the caoting but the leaded dosent ruin it.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 13, 2004 - 07:18 PM

#19

You can't get leaded fuels in California? I guess I'll stay in Indiana and keep buying the leaded stuff. If your ever in the neighborhood, please look me up. I'll give you some leaded fuel to try.

Just to clarify, I should have said "no leaded pump gas". Leaded racing fuels like U4 are available. Note that U4 is only 92 octane and according to VP "Makes up to 6% more power than pump gas and any basic nonoxygenated racing fuel."





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