B.L., if you want to make an independant point, just do it.

Quoting me, and then twisting it into some contorted "evil cyclist rhetoric" and reading into my quote points that are not there reads badly for you. Not that your point may not have validity to your situation locally, or globally, but trying to tie it to my comments only reduces it's impact.

Actually, I'm enjoying the debate, hope you are as well.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all TTers and ATVers, I'm off to indulge in holiday excess!

Robert

BL... You need get to your point and leave the novel writing...jsut kidding, good to see a person expressing their opinion in a good way and not slamming or bashing. I just put a post up on the Midwest forum asking for help to clean a local riding area that is really in disrepair...it's open to trucks...all off-road riders...and it needs help. I don't have any problem sharing trails and hope others will share the work to make the trails nice for all... No I don't agree about taking out whoops and making them smooth. It's off road riding...What I'm talking about is clearing dead brush and trees, replanting new trees, filling in water washes...things of that nature and remove all the trash left out there from this season...

matte said:

Right On ! ! ! !

[quote name='ob1quixote[I']]"B.L., theres room out there for everyone, regardless of how many are in a particular user group. Room enough for trails to be specialized for specific groups, and room enough for common use trails. Room for full size 4WD truck trails. Room for all and still undisturbed room to spare. Room is not whats lacking, the resource is not dwindling. Access to the plentiful resource is whats dwindling....."[/I]

With all due respect, your statement above reflects not only the mantra of every AMA member I've ever run into....but the out and out blatant untruths that are at the core of our ever organizing effectively!

THERE IS [U]NOT[/U] ENOUGH "ROOM" FOR EVERYONE AND WE SIMPLY HAVE TO SHARE!!!

It is just simply amazing (to me) not only how brainwashed the motorcycling community has let themselves be; believing that there are all these trails out there just "waiting" to be "divied up" amongst all of us....but that the myth has gotten so out of hand that not a one of them feels guilty at all in perpetuating it! (again, we have all these non-motorized trails that only 'the able' can access....let's make sure that a good share of the motorized ones have this same stigma attached with absolutely no room for negotiation!).

I mean, c'mon guys and gals....with that kind of attitude and a good look at the title of this thread.....why would you believe that "the rest of us" (you know, the fellow riders who are extending their hand forward in the spirit of cooperation) would look at you in any other light [U]than the one you are shedding upon yourselves?[/U]

"Plenty of Room" v.s Access is ironic at best; sad at the worst. The former was certainly true up until the mid 20th century....the latter is now being eroded much because one organization has made their sister organization a red-headed step-child in every truly [U]uniting[/U] the two groups....mainly because the "old-school" motorcyclists desire a large number of trails ALL TO THEMSELVES and refuse to join forces with any group who doesn't feel the same way! (***which puts people at the parent organization in the same bind that they were/are in on the helmet issue***).

"...And whats wrong with areas that arent shared? I was at an OHV resort a while back, watch 4wd ATVs mudbogging to their hearts content, ripping the pit to pieces. And thats exactly what that spot was made for. Why couldn't an area be set aside for mud bogging at a public trails system? I think its fairly safe to assume that the ONLY users would be ATVers. I would love to have an approved mud bog at my local public trails, so folks that want to do that have a place to do it, instead of destroying sections of trail...."

Again, classic AMA!
Try to switch the entire issue around and divert attention fronm the trail crisis by saying "o.k. here, you take this mud hole......we'll take a hundred miles of single-track that the rest of the world will never see unless they are darn talented at balancing on two wheels while dodging trees...." Deal?

"...Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sound like the trail system you see in the future will be one size fits all, hummer width and turn radius, occasional mud bogs, no areas rough enough to jar a disabled person loose from a Rhino, no areas inaccessible to any user. Except the restrooms...."

As always, let's take the myths point-by-point:

"One-size fits all" and "hummer width" has everything to do with the amount of time and effort BOTH groups would like to put into maintaining their trails properly. I've stomached the cyclist propoganda concerning this "super highway" crap AD NAUSEUM for years....[U]and it simply isn't true[/U]. What is true is that with the amount of upcoming pressure we are seeing now and will see in the future....we need not only the ability to maintain these trails with modern maintenance equipment (the great big "secret" here being that fantastic winding trails can be carved out with these machines and have been for years )....but to access all points in any system with a minimum width sized vehicle for dual purpase fire-fighting/rescue personnel (I sometimes get the feeling that motorcyclists feel we should spend millions building alternate routes into our forest lands that don't use "their" trails and send a helicopter in every time they wrap themselves around a tree).

Your comment above also included something that I felt pretty much summed up how the majority of the able-bodied motorcycle community actually feels about anyone who doesn't ride a bike:

"....no areas rough enough [B]to jar a disabled person loose from a Rhino....."

Quad and side-by-side riders are not looking for smooth trails....we are not desiring super-highways....we don't even want a single-tree cut down that doesn't have to be. What we are after is ACCESS. Not access to the hu8ndred of thousands of miles many of us will never see on the non-motorized trails.....but you're darn right ACCESS to the motorized ones with no arrogant national organization or membership standing in our way as if they "owned" these trails also. We are split today over pure and simple selfishness by one group who can still enjoy the outdoors as they always did and on the same trails....yet constantly seek to sub-divide themselves from the rest of the community over, frankly, flat out "greed".

Again, we are not worried about jarring any disabled person loose from our "new technology" machines.....we simply seek out [U]what your machines will never provide[/U]....a smile on not only these people's faces; but kids and seniors whose numbers are as huge as the atv figures your fellow motorcyclists would just as soon not talk about.

"...This is not what I would want to see, so I will continue to fight for trails in general, tight trails for those who like it like that, mud bogs, ATV width trails, public mx tracks. Theres room for it all, for every group to have something they enjoy....."

I am just going to have to disagree, my friend; as the only "room" groups like the AMA and their hateful membership are creating?....is ROOM for other groups to come on in here and bring down a divided house.

"...And the real bottom line is that until the varied user groups unite in their common interests and work out their differences to some level of satisfaction, the unified opposition will continue to succeed in blocking access to public lands. The opposition doesnt care what you ride, just that you ride....."

As I mentioned above and well put. I'll continue to respond to the other comments given by date posted when I get the time.

The Bottom Line said:

&%$#@!? WFT DID YOU JUST SAY? are you saying that when you quad riding goons turn single track into double track it's the state's and 2 wheelers' fault for not "getting involved"?

well here's my "bottom line": you can eff right off. next time i see a quad i see a quad running down what was till recently single track i'll drag him off his retard chariot and beat him to death with my helmet and i'll pin a note to his chest explaining that he's dead because he and other quad riders weren't interested in "getting involved" in the effort to keep me from killing quad riders. (if this logic seems flawed just keep in mind that i used your logic as a template).

if there are sooooo many of you, CUT YOUR OWN GODD_MNED TRAILS!


jeremiah

Well this thread is heading down hill fast.

Gang,, while I think Bottom Line dudes logic is flawed, his idea of trail management ludicrous at best, and his idea of what OUR trails need to be is plainly pathetic and self serving.. Those are his IDEAS I attack,, his wants for a single type of one and all user trail system (cut and made for his uses,, that the rest of us can use Too) is flawed in so many ways, it is confusing at best, when considering a reply to them,, as it is wrong on so many points.

BUT I do not attack the person,, it’s not him I have issue with .. Just his ideas of what the rest of us HAVE to do, in order to fit in to his version of right and wrong.

If this subject can not be discussed without the BS,, it gets closed.. \\Simple yes ?

Lets keep it civil. The issue, regardless of what side you want to adopt, is important.

Excellent bad examples abound on both sides, this discussion/debate will have to stay above that level, if it expects to continue...........

Robert {Not an AMA member, except for 1 year by duress, never was}

I guess my thoughts on this would be- I've never actually read one of "The Bottom Lines" posts completely through and therefore cannot comment on them. I start reading and within a couple of sentences I realize the content does not hold up to rational thinking, so I quit reading. Simple? Yes! The problem is caused by the quantity of riders on the trail systems, period. If the quote was correct that quads sell 4-1 then you have at least four times as many stupid people on the trail systems riding quads as compared to bikes. If you take into account how much easier a quad is to learn to ride, the number of stupid people on quads could very easily double, triple, or quadruple. It's a dead end conflict that will be resolved when all private lands are closed due to stupid people on quads.

bronco78 said:

i suppose you're right.

TBL, i'm sorry i threatened to kill you or any other quad rider i see ruining singletrack. and i shouldn't have called you a quad-riding douche either. my bad.


jeremiah

What kills me is that after describing the 50/50 split of my local trails, single and dual track, I was labeled "greedy" for wanting single track.

What then do you call the person who demands to ride every last trail regardless of its designation, making 100%, philanthropic?

Not plenty of room? The Francis Marion Forest consists of 622,081 acres. The actual soil disturbed by the trail is about 40 acres. The total area of the trail is about 6400 acres. Thats .97%, thats one forest, one OHV trail system. Still think there isnt enough room for everyone to get a little piece of the pie?

And one more question, even if the trails were allocated 4 to 1 for the quads, does anyone really think that the quads would be happy with their lot?

Robert

Bottom line,
Single track is for the enjoyment of skilled, coordinated, two wheeled motorcyclists. Its not the choice of many but for most who ride it theres nothing better. The tighter the better, thats the challenge. Quad width trails loose some of the challenge and Gator or Jeep width aren't worth loading up the bike. We have lots of trail in Michigan. I ride the skinny ones and will fight to keep them skinny.
Gator width trails, thats nuts. Its not even an ORV its farm equipment.

[quote name='Ud_Luz[I']]"...I can see it now, the dirtbikers against the quads, the quads against the monster atvs and the monster atvs against all of the bikes and quads....".[/I]

I think you're missing (at least) 'my' point here in that the reason we are in danger of splitting even further down [U]any[/U] lines, can be traced to one group's refusal to work and ride side-by-side with the other. When any group at any time starts claiming that a public resource should be accessed exclusively for themselves (and especially those armed with nothing but the statement: "becasue that's the way we like it.. ")....somebody had darn well better stand up and start questioning their motives and/or leadership.

"...I suppose though that the quantity of beer the side by side atv can carry would cause most of the riders to be passed out at the side of the trails(now highways)......"

Again, I'm just looking for intelligent debate on a subject that rarely (if ever) gets brought up in the community....if that's your view of the situation at hand....I guess I wasted my time replying to the first part.

Jeff@TheQuadShop said:

Well put.

[quote name='KTM265[I']]"...I would say a good start to taking back our grounds is to start by taking back control of the AMA and other special interest groups and make sure our voice is being heard as off-road users...."[/I]

I agree if that voice is heard as ONE and not as "big daddy" AMA and the little red-headed step-kid ATVA. Nobody is asking legitimate questions as to the future of both of our groups to either of these leaderships except for maybe folks like myself who didn't like the anwers given (research the petition these guys wanted us to sign this last time the CSPC came to W.V. and tell me where you see a lot of [U]tough/U] language on any subject important to us all).

"...When was the last time anyone called the AMA and went to a local district meeting?....".

What a concept!

"....The last dist meeting I went to was nothing by local groups complaining about dates for their races... I think we got bigger issues to resolve....."

It's kind of like going to my local atv club meeting and spending untold time worrying about t-shirts, bumper stickers and who's going to bring "the weenies" to the next big ride. Why doesn't someone start off with this question at their next AMA gathering:

If everybody else in the off-road community worked together with you to build these "low-impact" trails you seek...RIGHT NEXT TO OUR "SUPERHIGHWAYS" FOR THIS DODGE-THE-TREE "THRILL" YOU SEEK ....would this finally shut down your propoganda machine in regards to getting what you think is your birthright?

It's like our motorcycle group up here in Michigan....they'll talk all day 'off the record' or in private what they are 'all about'....yet when you ask tough questions right there in front of the DNR or any other folks with any power....they don't have a word to say! (I honestly don't think they have ever been questioned before and the arroggance is so apparent that it's not pretty for anyone who 'dares' cross them).

"....Do we have any AMA officers reading this forum? Do they really know how we feel and what we want done?...."

bronco78 said:

And that's pretty hard to "do"... when your largest nationally organized group refuses to lobby for even the most BASIC of safety rules in hugely popular riding areas like Windrock, TN.

If you don't have the kahunas to preach "guidance" here because you're afraid of membership money decreasing.....where in the heck do you start?

Tubo said:

You first claim that the quads are much more prevalent.....then act surprised that somebody fianlly gets killed riding one!

Worse yet; you then somehow give the impression that this "influx" can somehow be 'prevented' ....gosh, I'm sorry to burst your bubble here...but Santa Claus isn't real either!

kgbg[I said:

It's refreshing to see you involved with all the organizations you speak of and to give some hope to our younger riders out there that there is another way to proceed with their passion. I'd be happy with 10% also....i just wish 10% of the people i've run into so far at even the (cough) "involved" level would see the forest for the trees.

[quote name='KTM265[I']]"... There is only one number that we should worry about and that is 1. One unified group of off-road riders that say enough is enough, if you are jerk abusing the trails, quad or bike...we want you to leave....."[/I]

And I think that more riding clubs (and the AMA) should be approaching more potential membership in this manner. You can't get kids to think you're serious about this stuff until you start turning people in and lobbying hard for the penalties to be increased (the only thing that will ever get us jump-started into changing a good share of these idiot's minds).

"...How many of you have gone out and improved the trails around you...cleaning up trash, replanting trees...etc? Chime in if you have, lets hear some positive comments and suggestions....."

matte said:

Great point. Discretion is important and very often the only way to proceed in these situations (this isn't talked about enough and am gald you brought it up).

Verkade45 said:

It's true and the one thing that the national motorcycle group won't just come right out and admit is that our younger generation is leaning exactly this same way. Not everybody can afford this or that anymore and when these kids find a common interest?.....THEY DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU BRING TO RIDE AND SIMPLY DESIRE TO DO IT TOGETHER

That last statement is what these cycle groups fear most; as they have been letting this "us v.s. them" crap not only ferment for decades...but any concept of "ride what you bring" won't ever get everybody to the same place they want to go to by themselves....