Synthetic oil?


47 replies to this topic
  • GetSumBaby

Posted October 20, 2004 - 07:46 AM

#1

I just had my top end redone and the builder put a synthetic oil in the motor. I heard that you can not run a full synthetic until the rings seat. Is this true? If so - how do I clean the oil out of the bike (detergent type oil)?

Thanks,
Ed

  • twowheellen1

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:06 AM

#2

I have heard the same thing. Aside from taking the engine apart and wiping it clean the most realistic way is to drain the oil the best you can, change the filter and put in the correct oil. A little synthetic oil can't be that bad.

TW

  • John_Lorenz

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:23 AM

#3

A myth

Synth will not harm the motor or the rebuild.

  • grayracer513

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:26 AM

#4

It isn't true that you shouldn't use a full synthetic until the rings seat. It is true that for the most part, you shouldn't use a full synthetic in a YZ at all, because the clutch doesn't like them.

Synthetic BLENDS are another thing, though, and most of them are fine.

You should use (according to Yamaha and other manufacturers of high performance 4 strokes) an oil with a JASO grade of MA, or API SG. Golden Spectra 4 is one such oil. Motorex makes another, and I'm sure you can find others. If you have an engine with its oil supply seperate from its clutch, as with the CRFs, use an MB in the engine and an MA in the transmission. The JASO MA grade was created to identify oils that meet the old SG standard that was replaced by the American Petroleum Institute (API) by mandate of the EPA.

Oils graded API SJ or higher should not be used (even, surprisingly, Yamalube 4, it's a street oil), since they contain inferior wear reducing additives. Avoid anything that says "Energy Saving" on it.

Some on TT have reported good results using Mobil one 15w-50 with the Red Cap (no energy saving additives), but the oils still do not have the sulfur based wear reducers of an SG oil. It's also a 50 wt oil, which is unnecessarily heavy for 90% of all riding situations, and there are issues surrounding the use of heavier than necessary oil, in my rarely humble opinion.

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:39 AM

#5

synthetic oils can be slippery enough to keep the rings and the crosshatch of the cylinder from wearing properly. That leads to excessive blowby.

The only synthetic oil that is absolutely harmful to the engine after breakin is ones that have the stamp "energy conserving" on them. Otherwise you need to make sure they dont have additives that can cause the clutch to slip.

  • GetSumBaby

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:43 AM

#6

This is the oil they used. WHat should I do?

300V Competition 4T 15W50

Ester-based, 100% synthetic.
Winner of the most famous endurance events: Bol d’Or, 24 hours of Le Mans, 8 hours of Suzuka, Daytona 200 Miles.

STANDARD : API SG, CCMC G-4, JASO T 904 Friction.

RACING (high performance engines and intensive riding) The 300V range is specifically designed to withstand both the severe conditions inherent in racing and the demands of a rider pushing his machine to its limits. This range of lubricants is perfectly suited to competition conditions from road-racing to endurance, motocross to six-days enduro.
Because they are ester-based and enhanced with highly efficient and specialized anti-friction additives, the 100% synthetic 300 V lubricants need no or little viscosity improver additives. An exceptional resistance to shearing from one oil change to the next is therefore maintained.

The main performance figures common to the whole range are:

A drastic reduction of friction within the engine, that results in better performance and reliability, a lower noise level and less wear on moving parts.
Reduced engine running temperature.
Exceptional coking resistance (i.e. carbon build-up) at high temperatures.
Low volatility (i.e. very little high temperature evaporation).
These characteristics make 300 V Racing 15W50 and Sport 10W40 (the viscosity depends on the hydraulic pushrods) the lubricants that are recommended and used by leading racing teams. They ensure engine reliability and increased mileage.
PRACTICAL ADVICE
Consult the manufacturers’ recommendations and adapt them depending on the vehicle’s use.


Thanks,
Ed

  • John_Lorenz

Posted October 20, 2004 - 08:51 AM

#7

Let Me clarify-As long as it is not energy absorbing Synth it is ok.

  • Thumper38

Posted October 20, 2004 - 09:11 AM

#8

I use amsoil and it is full synthetic and have had zero problems! no clutch issues either. :cry:

  • noslo98

Posted October 20, 2004 - 09:19 AM

#9

I use amsoil syn and have no probs eitheruset torco T4 blend on break in then used amsoil ever since.

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted October 20, 2004 - 09:37 AM

#10

Let Me clarify-As long as it is not energy absorbing Synth it is ok.


you're clairification needs clairified. :cry:

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • Satch0922

Posted October 20, 2004 - 09:48 AM

#11

http://www.thumperta...o//fpart/1/vc/1

  • Jeffro426

Posted October 20, 2004 - 09:57 AM

#12

Youll be fine...honestly, if your doing maintenance correctly and changing the oil every couple of rides, there is no real reason for synthetic. Its lubricating properities are no better if only slightly than regular motor oil and really the whole concept behind it is extended oil changes in passenger cars/trucks/etc. A dirt bike which has the oil changed so frequently that it often comes out looking like new just seems like a waste of a good sythetic to me. Ill save it for my cars/trucks thank you.

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted October 20, 2004 - 10:01 AM

#13

I'll second that remark. I change my oil every ride day or more if it's real hard riding. I use shell rotella 15-40.

  • onekyoung

Posted October 20, 2004 - 11:32 AM

#14

Yeah! Rotella T ... can't beat six and a half bucks a gallon! Couple that with a lifetime scotts SS filter and you are goooood to go :cry:

  • wrooster

Posted October 20, 2004 - 11:44 AM

#15

grayracer writes

you shouldn't use a full synthetic in a YZ at all, because the clutch doesn't like them

this is completely incorrect. it matters not that the base oil stock is petroleum, synthetic, or a mixture of the two (what the manufacturers sometimes refer to as a "blend" or "semi-synthetic").

what matters is the make-up of the additive package -- the chemistry of which may include significant amounts of moly and other friction reducing compounds. it's these additives that can cause problems with wet clutches, and not the base stock.

even a petroleum-based oil with the wrong additive package is not suitable for use in wet clutches. but saying in so many words that "full synthetics are bad" is totally wrong.

more info here:
http://www.thumperta...3158#Post613158

ps
grayracer writes:

It's also a 50 wt oil, which is unnecessarily heavy for 90% of all riding situations, and there are issues surrounding the use of heavier than necessary oil, in my rarely humble opinion.

as for this nonsense about *not* using a 50wt oil in a yamaha YZF engine, let's see if i open my WR250F manual right here... yep, one of the oils spec'd by yamaha is "Yamalube 4-R", which incidentally is a 15W-50 oil. the little temperature chart accompanying the oil recommendations indicates that a 20W-50 oil is suitable for use in temperatures from 40'F to 122'F -- which pretty much covers *my* riding conditions.

jim aka the wrooster
'01 wr250f

  • Satch0922

Posted October 20, 2004 - 12:13 PM

#16

But will I have to change my oil more often if I take out my air filter cage screen? :cry: :cry:

(sorry guys I did not get to ride last weekend and I am going stir crazy......please take no offense by it)

  • grayracer513

Posted October 20, 2004 - 03:20 PM

#17

as for this nonsense about *not* using a 50wt oil in a yamaha YZF engine, let's see if i open my WR250F manual right here... yep, one of the oils spec'd by yamaha is "Yamalube 4-R", which incidentally is a 15W-50 oil. the little temperature chart accompanying the oil recommendations indicates that a 20W-50 oil is suitable for use in temperatures from 40'F to 122'F -- which pretty much covers *my* riding conditions.



Let me just dig into my ,03 YZ450 manual, here....Ah, yes, I see that. Yes, a 15w-50 is their third choice, isn't it? And darrned if the first oil listed isn't an SAE 20w-40, type SG, (non-friction modified), which is usable within the temperature range of 40-110 degrees Farenheit, which covers my riding conditions, and I would think yours as well. Thus, a fifty is, as I said, not necessary, and I choose not to use one for several reasons.

As for not using full synthetics, you will recall that I explained that
1) the reason was that many of them caused problems with the clutch (up until about a year and a half ago, it was most of them)
2) that a lot of TT members have had sucess with at least one full synthetic
Most people should be able to deduct from that if the at least conforms to API SG/JASO MA, and causes no chatter or slippage in the clutch, it would be work out for them.

Maybe not.

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted October 20, 2004 - 03:37 PM

#18

now reach up there and slap satch on the back of the head. :cry:

  • Satch0922

Posted October 20, 2004 - 03:45 PM

#19

ok..my testimonial. 2002 YZ426F, ridden weekly since new (at least while I am healthy! LOL). Mobil One Red Cap 15w-50, original top end and ORIGINAL clutch. This is not a "my oil is better than yours" post. There are ALOT of good oils you can use in these bikes. Change it often and you will be good.

BTW....does this bike look like it has a slipping clutch!?!? :cry: (yes I like that pic......thanks ZOO)
Posted Image

  • YZ250F_Rider

Posted October 20, 2004 - 03:58 PM

#20

man I would kill to have some dirt like that here in orlando!





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