Katoom



19 replies to this topic
  • gtms34

Posted January 31, 2002 - 10:41 PM

#1

Do you know about the Caps lock key?

My '00 never let go and I flat guarantee you, that bike was ridden hard. I vacuum scavenged my crankcase.

  • katoooooom

Posted January 31, 2002 - 01:39 PM

#2

WhAT's tHaT ?

  • katoooooom

Posted January 31, 2002 - 02:34 PM

#3

AFTER MY 3RD SEAL BLEW OUT,(ON MY FIRST BIKE)MY LOCAL REP AND DEALER WANTED TO REROUTE THE BREATHER HOSE,THINKING THAT WAS THE PROBLEM,AT THAT POINT I AGREED IT MIGHT STILL BE A POSSIBILITY THAT THE HOSE WAS STILL SOMEHOW BEING PINCHED OFF.
WHEN I WENT TO PICK THE BIKE UP,I LOOKED TO SEE WHAT THEY HAD DONE,TO MY SUPRISE THE HOSE WAS JAMMED UP INTO AN AREA INBETWEEN THE FRAME AND THE REAR SHOCK,COMPLETELY PINCHING OFF THE HOSE,IF I WERE NO HAVE RIDDEN THE BIKE THAT WAY THE HOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN CUT IN HALF. WHEN I SHOWED IT TO THE SERVICE MANNAGER HE SAID"THAT'S THE WAY TONY WANTED IT" AND "I HAVE TO LEAVE IT THAT WAY" "HE'S THE BOSS". WHEN I CALLED THE REP TO ASK HIM ABOUT IT HE SAID"I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT"
WHEN I GOT THE BIKE BACK TO MY SHOP I DECIDED TO CHECK THE OIL,GOOD THING I DID IT BECAUSE IT WAS OUT-THE REST OF WHAT WAS LEFT DRAINED OUT WHEN WHEN THEY CHANGED THE SEALAND DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO ADD OR EVEN CHECK THE OIL!!!
I THOUGHT THE SEAL HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL USING THE VACUUM OF THE ENGINE TO SCAVENGE AIR PRESURE FROM THE CRANKCASE,JUST LIKE THE FACTORY HAD INTENTED,BUT AGAINST MY BETTER JUDGEMENT AND TO APPEASE THE REP,I PUT THE K&N FILTER ON A LITTLE STUB OF TUBING RIGHT AT THE VENT TUBE TO ELIMINATE ANY CHANCE OF THE HOSE BEING PINCHED.
THEM I PROCEDED TO BLOW OUT 2 MORE SEALS-SO MUCH FOR THE PINCHED HOSE THEORY!

  • nvccsup

Posted January 31, 2002 - 03:53 PM

#4

Venting is good ! (more ways than one in this case) Sooooo, what is the solution to all of the chatter?

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: nvccsup ]

  • Bob_J

Posted February 01, 2002 - 10:59 PM

#5

Katoom, so what is the solution to this problem, you did say you have engineered a solution?? Selling the BRP is not an option!! I hope your happy with your KTM, just quit Bagging on Honda's, EVERY bike has had some sort of problem in the past and more will show up in the future?
Bob J

  • Keyser_Zoze

Posted February 08, 2002 - 07:41 PM

#6

Originally posted by katoooooom:
AFTER MY 3RD SEAL BLEW OUT,(ON MY FIRST BIKE)MY LOCAL REP AND DEALER WANTED TO REROUTE THE BREATHER HOSE,THINKING THAT WAS THE PROBLEM,AT THAT POINT I AGREED IT MIGHT STILL BE A POSSIBILITY THAT THE HOSE WAS STILL SOMEHOW BEING PINCHED OFF.
WHEN I WENT TO PICK THE BIKE UP,I LOOKED TO SEE WHAT THEY HAD DONE,TO MY SUPRISE THE HOSE WAS JAMMED UP INTO AN AREA INBETWEEN THE FRAME AND THE REAR SHOCK,COMPLETELY PINCHING OFF THE HOSE,IF I WERE NO HAVE RIDDEN THE BIKE THAT WAY THE HOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN CUT IN HALF. WHEN I SHOWED IT TO THE SERVICE MANNAGER HE SAID"THAT'S THE WAY TONY WANTED IT" AND "I HAVE TO LEAVE IT THAT WAY" "HE'S THE BOSS". WHEN I CALLED THE REP TO ASK HIM ABOUT IT HE SAID"I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOU DO WITH IT"
WHEN I GOT THE BIKE BACK TO MY SHOP I DECIDED TO CHECK THE OIL,GOOD THING I DID IT BECAUSE IT WAS OUT-THE REST OF WHAT WAS LEFT DRAINED OUT WHEN WHEN THEY CHANGED THE SEALAND DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO ADD OR EVEN CHECK THE OIL!!!
I THOUGHT THE SEAL HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL USING THE VACUUM OF THE ENGINE TO SCAVENGE AIR PRESURE FROM THE CRANKCASE,JUST LIKE THE FACTORY HAD INTENTED,BUT AGAINST MY BETTER JUDGEMENT AND TO APPEASE THE REP,I PUT THE K&N FILTER ON A LITTLE STUB OF TUBING RIGHT AT THE VENT TUBE TO ELIMINATE ANY CHANCE OF THE HOSE BEING PINCHED.
THEM I PROCEDED TO BLOW OUT 2 MORE SEALS-SO MUCH FOR THE PINCHED HOSE THEORY!


Call wade summers at Summers Racing Components. He has the solution to this problem.

http://www.SRCINC.net

Tell em jay peters sent ya

  • Bob_J

Posted February 10, 2002 - 05:43 PM

#7

I just finished some maint. on the B R P. I changed the C/S seal to the new model, and made sure the chain is NOT too tight and inline with the Sprocket. I moved the Crankcase breather from the old port on the air filter box to the place where the smog pulse injection was. Both these ports are on the vacuum side of the air filter, so I can't see why it would make any difference, other than it's a larger hose/port. The oil level is correct, about 1" below the upper mark when HOT. The B R P has the power up Manifold/Exhaust outlet/Jetting/ pulse injection removed/K & N filter. I might replace the vent to a K & N filter/breather. My Son will test it out at Glamis, I hope the seal problem is solved??
Any Comments??

Bob J

  • joe_moto

Posted February 12, 2002 - 11:18 AM

#8

when the oil is hot it sould be at the upper mark of the dip stick not 1" below it

  • Craig_Mitchell

Posted February 13, 2002 - 09:21 AM

#9

Joe, gotta disagree a bit on this.
The shop manual says " if below lower mark,
then fill to upper mark" and does not offer any
instructions for readings in between.

the owners manual says " should be between upper and lower marks, if required, add to the
upper"

After 11,000plus trouble free miles with my
level 1" from upper I reacon I don't require
an extra inch.

cheers, Craig

  • Toomanybikes

Posted February 16, 2002 - 01:25 AM

#10

Oil level BS. I just heard that from the dealer after I poped the seal out of my buddies BRP. Five miles in the desert and I have a giser of oil hitting my boot.

Katoom has the right idea. The BRP, like all dry sump systems has two oil pumps: a scavange pump and and a pressure pump. The scavange pump is twice the size (or bigger) of the pressure pump in most dry sump systems. I should more then effectively scavange the crankase of extra oil and pressure. The vent hose shouldn't even be a issue with a scavange pump. The vent hose is more then adequate on this bike. I also remember there is a additional vent on the valve cover. Crankcase pressure should not be a problem!

The probem is these pigs are building enough oil pressure to overcome the C/S seal. I have not seen the oil flow diagram for the BRP, but if it is like the other Honda four strokes the transmissions shafts are pressurized with oil also. So mayby this bike just has to much oil pressure. Anybody check?
Is there a relief valve in the system like most bikes? With the comon thread of sand running this would make sence: high oil pressure (high engine speed, hot oil) and low transmission oil dispersion (low countershaft speeds, high trans load). People often hold the throttle open in sand and then shut down as the bike starts to plane on top of the sand. Oil presure will have bult up from the high rpm and have no where to go as the engine and trans slows down.

These circumstances are just what happened in my case. The seal did not blow from the 3 or four full throttle hill climbs in the sand. But as I toke off on the flat and started to plane, the seal let go.

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  • needsprayer

Posted February 16, 2002 - 03:42 AM

#11

Toomanybikes,


The original countershaft seal (91205-MBN-671)is found on models prior to 2002 XR650R. This seal has now been replaced by a stronger seal(91205-MBN-672)by Honda (thank you Honda)and was available last year. There was no factory recall.

From SRC,Inc:

"All Owners of Honda XR-650R need to be aware of the frequent failure of the Original countersahft seal on this model. We now stock the revised part. If you have not replaced this seal with the new part, You are advised to buy one and keep it with you whenever you ride. The Honda Part # is 91205-MBN-672. This seal can be replaced with very little effort and expense."


While the original seal may have failed on some XR650Rs it did not fail very often across the board. A poll on the Yahoo XR650R group showed that it did happen, but the precentage rate was very low, less than 0.5% (1 in every 200 ). This is still too high for Honda and Honda did something about.

P.S. Oil level is not BS. The BRP must be warmed up before measuring the oil level. The oil must be pumped into the frame in order to take an accurate measurement. If you fail to do this then you will put way too much oil in (trying to fill the frame) and create excessive pressure. :)

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: needsprayer ]

  • Toomanybikes

Posted February 16, 2002 - 10:24 PM

#12

Needsprayer - I think you missed my point.

In a properly running dry sump system the scavange pump will remove any excess oil from the engine and place it in the oil tank. In the oil tank exess oil cannot create pressure to blow out a engine seal. I have ridden and worked on XRs for years so I am fully aware of the oil check procedure. I feel 'exess oil' is just a half witted excuss to cover up a design problem. Maybe the design problem is in the seal; I don't know yet. The fact that 'exess oil' does not take the path of least resistance (one of the two engine breathers) proves that the problem is on the pressure side of the oil system. None of the other engine seals fail regularly. Excess crancase pressure could blow out any seal (kickstater, shift shaft, crank seal). But this doesn't happen. It is the countersaft seal that blows out; the only seal that seal that works to hold in the oil pressure in most XRs. This is further supported by the fact that when these seals fail, oil spurts out not seeps.

In most bikes, whenC/S seals fail, oil seeps out not spurts. When most other bikes get overfilled with oil, the excess takes the path of least resistance out the breather. Consider these facts when analysing your oil problem.

  • needsprayer

Posted February 16, 2002 - 01:05 PM

#13

Toomanybikes,

Thanks for the intelligent discussion of a known problem. As you say "Maybe the design problem is in the seal; I don't know yet". I know that Honda recognizes the problem and has a recommended solution. If SRC and other reputable engineering companies sell the replacement seal, advertising that is works, then my confidence in the solution is based on their reputation.

Haven't seen anything in the various groups that I belong to about the new seal being compromised. I haven't even put the new seal in my '01 BRP yet, because I haven't experienced the problem (must be one of the 199 out of 200 who don't).

I will spend $4 on a new seal and keep it in my tool bag just in case, along with the spare right footpeg bolts.

  • highwatered

Posted February 17, 2002 - 11:24 PM

#14

AMERICAN HONDA ARE OUT FOR MONEY, AND COULD CARE A LOT LESS ABOUT THE LONG TIME CUSTOMER (IN MY CASE, EX-CUSTOMER!) BIG CORPORATE BS! And i am speaking from my experiance with them. :)

  • katoooooom

Posted February 18, 2002 - 08:43 PM

#15

needsprayer:

The original countershaft seal (91205-MBN-671)is found on models prior to 2002 XR650R. This seal has now been replaced by a stronger seal
WHICH I ALSO BLEW OUT THREE OF THOSE SO FAR.....
IF SO FEW PEOPLE HAD PROBLEMS, THEN WHY WAS IT REPLACED ?

(91205-MBN-672)by Honda (thank you Honda)
(SCREW YOU HONDA)
HONDA DOES NOT MAKE THEIR OWN SEALS

and was available last year. There was no factory recall.

THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A RECALL

From SRC,Inc:

"All Owners of Honda XR-650R need to be aware of the "(frequent failure)" of the Original countersahft seal on this model. We now stock the revised part. If you have not replaced this seal with the new part, You are advised to buy one and keep it with you whenever you ride. The Honda Part # is 91205-MBN-672. This seal can be replaced with very little effort and expense."


While the original seal may have failed on some
XR650Rs it did not fail very often across the board. A poll on the Yahoo XR650R group showed that it did happen, but the precentage rate was very low, less than 0.5% (1 in every 200 ).
LIKE EVERY 650 OWNER HAS ACESS TO THE INTERNET OR KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT SOME "YAHOO" SITE OR HAS EVEN SEEN THE "POLL" OR CARES TO VOTE ON IT.
HOW MANY POSTED "NO" ON THE POLL? THE YAHOO SITE IS NOTHING BUT CHEAP SPAM ADVERTISING.
This is still too high for Honda and Honda did something about.
HONDA HAS DONE NOTHING BUT A "BAND-AID" FIX

P.S. Oil level is not BS.
OIL LEVEL IS BS-IT WAS JUST EXPLAINED TO YOU-SHUT YOUR MOUTH AND OPEN YOUR MIND
The BRP must be warmed up before measuring the oil level. The oil must be pumped into the frame in order to take an accurate measurement. If you fail to do this then you will put way too much oil in (trying to fill the frame) and create excessive pressure. :)
PREASURE IS MADE BY THE PUMP-NOT BY GRAVITY
"need-sprayer "

  • katoooooom

Posted February 18, 2002 - 09:22 PM

#16

[QB]AMERICAN HONDA ARE OUT FOR MONEY, AND COULD CARE A LOT LESS ABOUT THE LONG TIME CUSTOMER (IN MY CASE, EX-CUSTOMER!) BIG CORPORATE BS! And i am speaking from my experiance with them. :)

ANOTHER SATISFIED CUSTOMER
GOOD JOB HONDA............

  • katoooooom

Posted February 18, 2002 - 09:27 PM

#17

Originally posted by needsprayer:

I know that Honda recognizes the problem and has a recommended solution.
YEAH RIGHT !
Haven't seen anything in the various groups that I belong to about the new seal being compromised.
WHAT ABOUT THE THREE THAT I BLEW OUT-I GUESS THEY DON'T COUNT.

I haven't even put the new seal in my '01 BRP yet, because I haven't experienced the problem (must be one of the 1 out of 2000 who don't).

GIVE ME TEN MINUTES OF REAL RIDING-IT WILL BLOW!!

  • needsprayer

Posted February 19, 2002 - 02:22 AM

#18

I believe that enough information has been presented to allow a person new to the XR650R to hear more than one side of this issue.

Thank you Katoooom for your passionate discourse.

I take it you find "need sprayer" a slam. Actually it is an amusing play on words. :)

  • katoooooom

Posted February 19, 2002 - 10:00 PM

#19

HUUUMMMM-OH YES INDEED SIR-OH BY THE WAY-DO YOU HAVE ANY GREY-POUPON?

I HAVE NOT EVEN STARTED TO SLAM YOU-"GOOD DAY SIR"

  • needsprayer

Posted February 20, 2002 - 03:01 AM

#20

"OH BY THE WAY-DO YOU HAVE ANY GREY-POUPON?"

But of course !!!

That and Tabasco sauce are absolutely indispensable. :)





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