XR650 Seals



21 replies to this topic
  • Bob_J

Posted January 25, 2002 - 10:23 PM

#1

I'm new here, so please excuse me if this has been covered before. I searched the topics for an answer but did not find one.
My Son's 2000 has blown out 3 Counter shaft seals, every time it has blown out it has been ridden HARD in the sand dunes (Hill Climbs). I assume too much crankcase pressure?? What is the cure, Honda has been less than zero help. I'm told Al Baker has a better seal?? I checked the breather tube for restriction and the shaft for nicks etc. The seal literally Blows out, as in it looks like it rolls the lip outward. I'm a Heavy equipment Mech. and deal with a lot of seals, and never seen this problem. I would expect it to leak if it was damaged by dirt, debris etc.
Thanks in advance for any help.

Bob J

  • Terrain Rider 4z

Posted January 26, 2002 - 07:33 AM

#2

Make sure the chain is not too tight as this will kill the seal. Also, make sure the chain is not slapping against the tire as that can increase pressure on the countershaft. My buddy just got through rebuilding his motor as his chain was too tight.

  • snaggleXR4

Posted January 26, 2002 - 08:09 AM

#3

Hey,
From what I've gathered, the breather tube going to the airbox does get pinched between the seat and side frame rail. Mine had marks on it where you could see where the seat hits it. I rerouted my tube under the frame rail, up by the shock canister, then up to the airbox. I just recently purchased my '00 650R, and haven't had problems, yet. So, I don't know if rerouting the tube will help, but I did it anyway. However, Honda does have a new part number for the seal, I'm pretty sure the newer 650's come with them. I'll be looking into the new seal myself before too long. Good luck.

  • gtms34

Posted January 26, 2002 - 07:24 PM

#4

Bob,
I connected the crankcase to the air box by using the air pump hoses. They fit together perfect and connected to the air box giving a vacuum scavenged crankcase. I never lost a seal on my '00 650R.

Hope this helps,

  • Bob_J

Posted January 27, 2002 - 04:27 PM

#5

Thanks to all of you, I'll try to reroute the breather tube. The chain is O K. I might even get a breather filter and put it on the tube.
Bob J

  • katoooooom

Posted January 29, 2002 - 12:30 AM

#6

THIS IS AN AREA I AM WELL AWARE OF!
I HAVE BLOWN OUT OVER 14 SEALS YES 14, IN BOTH A 2000 AND A 2001, THE SECOND BIKE BEING HONDA'S FAILED SOLUTION TO A HUGE PROBLEM.
I CAN ASSURE YOU THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BREATHER HOSE OR AIR PREASURE.AIR WILL COMPRESS-OIL WILL NOT!
HONDA CHANGED THE 2002 CASE PASSAGES BUT WILL NOT ADMIT THIS OR THE SEAL PROBLEM.
AFTER THREE YEARS DEALING WITH THE LIES AND FAILED ATTEMPTS BY HONDA TO FACE THE FACTS- I HAVE LOST ALL FAITH IN HONDA AND IT'S REPUTATION-THIS COMING FROM A DIE HARD HONDA FAN AND SUPPORTER FOR MANY YEARS.
I LOVE MY NEW KTM ! 70 LBS LIGHTER,E START,CA GREEN STICKER LEGAL-=THE LIST GOES ON!
AS FOR ALL YOUR SEAL PROBLEMS ,HONDA WILL DO NOTHING TO HELP YOU-SURE THEY WILL "TRY ANOTHER" "SPECIAL" "COUNTERMEASURE SEAL" OR MAYBE ANOTHER BREATHER HOSE OR TEN."LET'S TRY THIS OR THAT" WILL GO ON FOR EVER-AND IT'S NOT THE DEALERS FAULT EITHER-THEY WILL SUCK ASS TO THE LOCAL REPS AND TO HONDA BEFORE YOU ANYDAY! THEY DON'T OWE CRAP TO YOU-THEY ARE IN BUSINESS WITH HONDA MOTOR COMPANY.IF YOU THINK THEY WILL"GO TO BAT"FOR YOU OVER "HONDA". THE "HONDA"THAT KEEPS THEM IN BUSINESS AND LICENSING FRANCHISE RIGHTS. YOU THINK THEY WILL DO OR SAY ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT "HONDA" TELLS THEM TO DO-HA!THINK AGAIN!TRUST ME I HAVE GONE THROUGH EXTENSIVE CONNECTIONS AND NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT EXCEPT FOR A DOZEN LARGE OIL PATCHES IN MY GARAGE,ALL OVER MY GEAR,INSIDE MY TRUCK,ALL OVER MY BIKE-SEVERAL EMPTY CASES OF OIL AND DEGREASER-RECIEPTS FOR THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF SEALS-91205-MBN-671,672,673,AND AN ULCER WITH A SIDE OF HIGH BLOOD PREASURE TO GO ALONG WITH IT.
I HAVE 3 FRIENDS WHO ALL LOST SEALS PLUS ABOUT 30 OTHERS ON THE NET,YET AMONG THE DOZEN CONNECTIONS I DEAL WITH AT HONDA-NOT A ONE WILL ADMIT OR EVEN HINT THAT ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN MYSELF HAS EVER BLOWN A SEAL-THEY ALL HAVE THE SAME STORY-"WE HAVE ONLY HAD ONE OTHER GUY WITH A SEAL PROBLEM" BULL$#!%!!
THERE ARE ONLY TWO TYPES OF 650'S-THE ONES THAT HAVE BLOWN SEALS AND THE ONES THAT WILL!
TAKE MY ADVICE AND SELL IT AS SOON AS POSSABLE AND END YOUR FUTURE OF ENBARESMENT,HEARTACHE,AND FRUSTRATION!! BUY A KTM!!
THE 650 MAKES A GREAT TRAIL BIKE-BUT IF RIDE IT ANY OTHER WAY THAN YOUR GRANDMA WOULD-YOU WILL SPEW OUT SEAL AFTER SEAL-IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME!
PS. IF I SOUND PISSED OFF..."I AM"

  • needsprayer

Posted January 29, 2002 - 03:20 AM

#7

600 miles of high speed riding in southern Arizona and single track riding on my 4 acres (twisting through mesquite bushes and hitting small jumps). No blown seals.

I do not support the idea that this problem is common to all XR650Rs. If you are really interested take a poll at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/XR650R
and get some real statistics.

  • Craig_Mitchell

Posted January 29, 2002 - 09:12 AM

#8

Katoom, I have racked up 11,000 miles of fast
road miles mixed with the usual off-road stuff.
I have also read all 12,000 posts on the
1000 member xr650r group. I can only recall
a small number of blown seals being reported.
Perhaps you can direct me to your internet
group with the 30 owners with seals problems.


cheers, Craig

H.R.C. kitted xr650 and very happy .

  • Craig_Mitchell

Posted January 29, 2002 - 09:36 AM

#9

I;ve just checked out POLLS on the xr650 group.
Out of 818 North American votes only 4 answered
yes to "has your seal blown". Of 261 rest of world votes, only 2 persons said yes ( and one of
those was one oof the 4 north americans).

Surely if blown seals were common, as suggested by Katoom, then there would be many more posts on all thumper forums.

cheers, Craig ( U.K. )

  • katoooooom

Posted January 30, 2002 - 12:57 PM

#10

OK GUYS-WHEN YOUR SEAL DOES GO OUT-THINK OF ME!
I DID NOT SAY I HAD 30 PEOPLE ON ANY"GROUP" THESE ARE JUST MY CONTACTS.
CRAIG-OUR OF YOUR 818 VOTES HOW MANY SAID "NO"?
NOT ALL 650 OWNERS HAVE ACCESS TO THE NET NOR DO MOST EVEN VISIT THESE SITES.
FURTHER MORE I DID NOT LIST ANY REAL OR IMAGINED "STATISTICS" JUST MY EXPERIENCES AND THOSE OF MY MANY RIDING PARNTNERS.
IF YOU RIDE HARD=YOURS WILL BLOW
IF YOU RIDE HARDER=IT WILL BLOW SOONER......

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • needsprayer

Posted January 30, 2002 - 05:35 PM

#11

And if my seal never blows, what am I to think of that?

Just lucky or maybe I didn't do something to create the problem, like improper chain tension or bad wheel alignment.

And if the seal does wear out from age and use I sure won't attribute that to bad design.

  • katoooooom

Posted January 30, 2002 - 08:37 PM

#12

IF YOUR SEAL NEVER BLOWS=CONSIDER IT AN ACT OF GOD OR "MAYBE" YOUR JUST"LUCKY"
WITH ONLY A FEW HUNDRED MILES ON YOUR "PIG" THE FIRST FEW HUNDRED SHOULD HAVE BEEN EASY BREAK IN MILES-LIKE AN OLD WOMAN WOULD DO-THE NEXT FEW HUNDRED?........
CHAIN TENSION AND WHEEL ALIGNMENT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROBLEM-THERE IS A CAVITY IN BETWEEN THE BEARING AND THE SEAL,UNDER A HEAVY LOAD(OTHER THAN WHAT YOUR BIKE SEE'S)THE OPEN BALL BEARING ACTS AS AN OIL PUMP PUSHING OIL INTO THIS CAVITY WHICH DOESN'T HAVE THE PROPER SIZED RELIEF TO LET OUT THE RAPIDLY ACCUMULATED OIL THUS HYDRAULICALLY PUSHING OUT THE SEAL=HONDA HAS CHANGED TWO THINGS IN 2002 TO "HELP" WITH THIS VERY COMMON PROBLEM(WHICH I'M SURE YOU WOULD SHORTLY EXPERIENCE SHOULD YOU DECIDE TO GIVE IT A LITTLE THROTTLE)THEY ADDED AND ENLARGED SEVERAL PASSAGES LEADING FROM THIS CAVITY AS WELL AS RELIEVED ANY "EXTRA" OIL FROM ENTERING THE MAIN SHAFT VIA AN ENLARGED CLUTCH BUSHING OIL CIRCUIT.(MORE AND LARGER HOLES AND GROOVES PLUS A DIFFERENT MATERIAL)
MAYBE ALL THE "SYSTEM'S ENGINEERS" OUT THERE SHOULD DO A LITTLE MORE HOMEWORK NEXT TIME........ WHEN YOUR SEAL SPEWS OIL ALL OVER YOU, AND HONDA SCREWS YOU OVER=LET ME KNOW,I HAVE ENGINEERED AND DEVELOPED A SIMPLE FIX TO FIX THIS.

  • needsprayer

Posted January 31, 2002 - 03:25 AM

#13

I am well beyond the break in period. I live in southern AZ and (like my first post said) I ride hard. I like to blast down dirt roads. 0-80 Mph is common (not your typical grandma riding) and I have pushed it to 90+ before running out of road. This is WTO.

No blown seals.

You assume alot when you make your arguments.

BTW if you don't acknowledge that the countershaft can be pulled out of alignment by a too tight chain when landing from jumps or that front to rear sprocket misalignment can cause the countershaft to be pulled in an undesirable direction, then I return to my orginal statement.

"Just lucky or maybe I didn't do something to create the problem, like improper chain tension or bad wheel alignment."

  • katoooooom

Posted January 31, 2002 - 02:59 PM

#14

THIS BIKE WEIGHS MORE THAN 300 LBS-WHY? BECAUSE IT'S BUILT LIKE A F-ING TANK,MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THE SHAFT,IT'S WAS DESIGNED TO FAR EXCEED THE TORQUE LIMITS OF THE ENGINE,WHICH I'M SURE THE REST OF YOU WILL AGREE IS MORE THAN ENOUGH.
JUST LIKE THE FIRST YEAR ALUM FRAME CR250-EVERY PIECE WAS BUILT WITH COMPLETE OVERKILL IN MIND.
IF YOU WERE TO GO OFF A "BIG" JUMP,WHAT GEAR WOULD YOU BE IN? LET'S SAY "AT LEAST" TOP OF SECOND,MORE LIKE THIRD.WITH THE SHAFT IN HIGH SPEED ROTATION HOW LIKELY IS IT TO "BEND"OR"FLEX" IN ONE DIRECTION? NOT VERY! YOU WOULD HAVE TO DROP IT OFF A TEN STORY BUILDING,EVEN THEN THE CHAIN WOULD STRETCH OUT INSTEAD OF BENDING THE SHAFT!
IF THE CHAIN WERE TOO TIGHT,WOULD IT "BEND" THE SHAFT ? OR STRETCH OUT THE CHAIN ? IF THE REAR WHEEL WERE THAT FAR OUT ALIGNMENT,THE CHAIN WOULD ALSO TAKE THE WEAR AND ABUSE-NOT THE SHAFT.THE AXIS WOULD REMAIN IN THE SAME POSITION ANYHOW-NO MATTER HOW FAR OUT THE SPROCKET WAS.
I AM HAPPY YOU HAVE HAD SUCH "GOOD LUCK" WITH THE SEAL IN YOUR 300LB RED PIG-I HAVE NOT.....

  • terry_west

Posted January 31, 2002 - 04:56 PM

#15

Hey katooom why don't you go on over to your beloved ktm forum and leave the normal people alone

  • needsprayer

Posted January 31, 2002 - 06:39 PM

#16

katoooooom,

I looked at the countershaft and I have to admit that it looks sturdy enough to not bend. However it is part of a geared environment. While it may not bend when pulled on (incorrect chain tension or sprocket misalignment), wear and tear on the gears can occur and this will introduce play in the mesh and consequently movement of the shaft.

The seal could then be pinched at times. This is all hypothetical troubleshooting.

Other posts state that overfilling the oil will cause the seal blowing problem. There is a warmup procedure prior to checking the oil level. I don't know what you or your dealer may have done.

What I am saying is that the problem that you report is not widespread nor guaranteed to occur. I hope you have found a bike (KTM I assume) that is built better than the BRP or "Tank" as you put it. I look forward to seeing which one is still running ten years from now.

  • Bob_J

Posted February 01, 2002 - 10:55 PM

#17

Selling the bike and buying a Katoom is not an option. I have the new updated seal and will change the vent to the airbox to scavenge the pressure. Also will make sure the chain is slack enough when suspension is collapsed. I see that overfilling might be a problem, since he fills it to the upper mark, might just run it a about 1/2 way between the marks. Also do you screw the dipstick in when you check it ? or just slide it in to the threads and remove it? I agree with the post, we will see who's bike is still running 10 years from now!! I have had a '84 XR200, '85 XR 80 and 3 A T C'S from '82 to '85. All of them still run with very minor repairs other than normal maint. I still ride the A T C 200X at the dunes, and I ride it VERY HARD. Thanks to all of you for your help.
Katoom sounds like the "Disgruntled Honda Owner of the Year", I hope nothing major ever goes wrong with the K T M there parts prices are much higher than Honda's

Happy Trails Guys

Bob J

  • needsprayer

Posted February 01, 2002 - 11:33 AM

#18

" Also do you screw the dipstick in when you check it ? or just slide it in to the threads and remove it? "


Just slide it in to the threads.

Also, I posted this response to snaggleXR4's thread
"XR650R HELP!!!"


The dipstick is a pain. I tried cutting 1/2" off the end. It was still a pain. I bought an XRs Only temperature dipstick. It is round, has a small diameter, lets you know what the oil temperature is and goes in alot easier. Also, the stock dipstick has plastic threads and they will cross thread and be ruined easily. I was afraid of a piece of plastic falling into the oil cavity. The XRs Only dipstick is metal. Very nice!!

  • cj_wai

Posted February 01, 2002 - 06:28 PM

#19

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: cj wai ]

  • cj_wai

Posted February 01, 2002 - 06:29 PM

#20

Originally posted by katoooooom:
IF YOUR SEAL NEVER BLOWS=CONSIDER IT AN ACT OF GOD OR "MAYBE" YOUR JUST"LUCKY"
WITH ONLY A FEW HUNDRED MILES ON YOUR "PIG" THE FIRST FEW HUNDRED SHOULD HAVE BEEN EASY BREAK IN MILES-LIKE AN OLD WOMAN WOULD DO-THE NEXT FEW HUNDRED?........
CHAIN TENSION AND WHEEL ALIGNMENT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS PROBLEM-THERE IS A CAVITY IN BETWEEN THE BEARING AND THE SEAL,UNDER A HEAVY LOAD(OTHER THAN WHAT YOUR BIKE SEE'S)THE OPEN BALL BEARING ACTS AS AN OIL PUMP PUSHING OIL INTO THIS CAVITY WHICH DOESN'T HAVE THE PROPER SIZED RELIEF TO LET OUT THE RAPIDLY ACCUMULATED OIL THUS HYDRAULICALLY PUSHING OUT THE SEAL=HONDA HAS CHANGED TWO THINGS IN 2002 TO "HELP" WITH THIS VERY COMMON PROBLEM(WHICH I'M SURE YOU WOULD SHORTLY EXPERIENCE SHOULD YOU DECIDE TO GIVE IT A LITTLE THROTTLE)THEY ADDED AND ENLARGED SEVERAL PASSAGES LEADING FROM THIS CAVITY AS WELL AS RELIEVED ANY "EXTRA" OIL FROM ENTERING THE MAIN SHAFT VIA AN ENLARGED CLUTCH BUSHING OIL CIRCUIT.(MORE AND LARGER HOLES AND GROOVES PLUS A DIFFERENT MATERIAL)
MAYBE ALL THE "SYSTEM'S ENGINEERS" OUT THERE SHOULD DO A LITTLE MORE HOMEWORK NEXT TIME........ WHEN YOUR SEAL SPEWS OIL ALL OVER YOU, AND HONDA SCREWS YOU OVER=LET ME KNOW,I HAVE ENGINEERED AND DEVELOPED A SIMPLE FIX TO FIX THIS.

dude,why don,t you share your fix with us?

cj





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