Coolant Questions Answered

[EngIceDave]

I was introduced to this forum today. I did a search on “coolants/antifreeze” to see what people were talking about and was floored at the number of topics on this subject. I knew that high temperatures were a problem in four-strokes, but not this bad. So, I thought I would give you all some insight as to what coolants actually are and what their true purpose is.

Now, being from Engine Ice, I am a bit biased and I admit it. However, most all of the products on the market are excellent products, but each has various uses and applications for them. We produce Engine Ice for specific high intensity and high heat applications. It really is not designed as an “everyday” coolant; it is for racing applications.

There are two basic types of coolant/antifreeze, Ethylene Glycol (EG) and Propylene Glycol (PG) and then there are surfactant products such as Water Wetter from Red Line for example. All of the products mentioned are good products, just offering different things.

Ethylene Glycol (EG) – This is basically your “Prestone” type of products. Maxima’s Coolinol, Pro Honda Coolant and Spectro Coolant are examples of this type of product. It is basically the same as the coolant/antifreeze product you can buy at the auto parts store, but “silicate-free.” This is important, don’t get the stuff from the auto parts store unless it’s silicate free. Most are pre-diluted for easy use; they are diluted with a more pure distilled water or deionized water (deionized water is explained below). This is better water than what you can buy at the grocery store. You really shouldn’t call an EG-based product a “coolant,” an “anti-boil” product would be more accurate. EG is made very cheaply and its primary purpose is to eliminate boil-over and to keep your system from freezing up. That’s basically it. It is not designed to actually reduce temperatures. If you are driving a car or a cruiser-type bike that does not have a temperature issue, these are fine products.

Water Wetter - It is an additive product. Water Wetter is what is called a “surfactant.” What this means is that it reduces the surface tension of the water or in other words, it allows the water/fluid to “rub” closer to the metal allowing it to better draw off heat. Water Wetter works and it is good stuff. However, if you add it to an EG antifreeze product your results are minimal. Added to water, you will see a significant difference in temperature reduction. But it will not raise the boil point of the water nor does it offer any antifreeze protection. So your engine may run a bit cooler, but when it gets hot it will “spit out” the coolant before other products do. That is not good, because now you’ll have less coolant in the engine. Using more than the recommended amount (4 capfuls to a quart) is a waste and it will not make any difference, only use their recommended amount.

Propylene Glycol (PG) – This is what Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant and Evans Coolant is made of. Evans is 100% PG and has an extremely high boil point of well over 300oF. They recommend you make some mechanical changes to your system in order to use it. So, we will eliminate them from this discussion. Engine Ice is a diluted ratio of PG and Deionized water. The process of de-ionizing water eliminates all of the impurities that can do harm to your cooling system. Regardless if you are using tap, bottled, distilled, spring or R/O (reverse osmosis) waters, it can still contain minute particles of iron, magnesium, rust, lime and calcium. Many of these waters also contain chemicals, such as chlorine, fluorides and acids. Want proof? Take two different brands of distilled waters and perform your own taste test. They each taste different don’t they? If water were water, why would they be different? It’s because of the varying amounts of chemicals and minerals in these waters. These minerals and chemicals are what is the cause of scarring, scaling and mineral build-ups in your cooling system. Many also attribute these minerals and chemicals to water pump seal and gasket failures. Engine Ice was developed and tested in the heat and humidity of Southern Florida. Tests have proven to reduce operating race temperatures by as much as 50oF in some situations. PG is a lubricant and is a surfactant in itself, meaning it has more capability to draw away more heat than EG-based products and even Water Wetter. It is biodegradable and non-toxic. It will not kill your dog, nor will it kill the plant life at your favorite track or trail. It is also legal in AMA, CCS, FUSA and WERA road racing.

Engine Ice has won over 200 National Championship Titles over the last year and a half including the AMA 125cc West Supercross Championship with Ernesto Fonseca on the Yamaha of Troy YZ250F. You can bet that Yamaha Motor Corporation did extensive testing on Engine Ice prior to putting in into their premier bike in its debut year. It is also used an endorsed by the American Suzuki Amateur Motocross Program.

I would put our web site address on here, but I don’t want to look like I am trying to push our stuff too much.

I apologize if this appears to be a spam, it was not meant to be such. Only educational.

[qadsan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EngIceDave:

...EG is made very cheaply and its primary purpose is to eliminate boil-over and to keep your system from freezing up. That’s basically it...

It's also good for killing termites in and of itself. If EG is properly combined with borax, it also makes an excellent product that penetrates several inches into wood (b/c of the glycol carrier) to kill termites . Just don't let any animals get a hold of it as it will harm or kill them ?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:<HR>...Evans is 100% PG and has an extremely high boil point of well over 300oF. They recommend you make some mechanical changes to your system in order to use it...

Evans does NOT require nor do they recommend people to make mechanical changes in order to use their product for motorcycles as they do for some vehicles.

In fact, here's their quote directly from their web page...

http://www.evanscooling.com/html/mcycles1.htm

"EVANS NPG™ COOLING for liquid cooled motorcycles requires no mechanical changes, just drain your existing system, flush, and pour in the new EVANS NPG Coolant."

I'm glad more products are now based on PG. I've been using PG for over a dozen years in my vehicles and have never had any problems, although it used to be green in color (many years back from some mfgrs) and that made disposal a bit lucrative.

Looks like you have an interesting product. I'll have to read up on it and who knows, maybe I'll be a customer. Thanks for sharing your info.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: qadsan ]

[Dutch]

It still taste like Spam.

[EngIceDave]

Thank you for your input qadsan,

In regards to Evans, even though they say that mechanical changes aren't "required" you would be wise to at least search out a zero pressure radiator cap. Not sure where to find one though.

Evans under pressure would have an astronomical boil point, and that makes most folks a bit uncomforable...including myself.

[qadsan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EngIceDave:

...In regards to Evans, even though they say that mechanical changes aren't "required" you would be wise to at least search out a zero pressure radiator cap. Not sure where to find one though.

I've talked with over a dozen people running Evans in their bikes and they are running fine with their stock radiator caps. The problem with pressure really arrises when water is introduced into their system or if the system hasn't been properly purged of the old coolant/water. It only takes one ounce of remaining water in the system to make 16 liters of steam ?

It's a great product, but you'd better be carrying some spare Evans NPG if you're out in the sticks and loose some coolant because you won't find it at your nearby store

[jws]

It's a great product, but you'd better be carrying some spare Evans NPG if you're out in the sticks and loose some coolant because you won't find it at your nearby store

i was thinking of changing over to the evans NPG - but now i am thinking about just running the honda stuff ?

i have only overheated a couple times - once going thru the rock garden at devils hole and last week up in gorman on trail 128 piru creek - both 1st gear clutch type stuff - in piru creek i must of filled my overflow bottle 3 times i stopped and let the bike cool down everytime it started pissing coolant out - i am 300lbs and i was running a clake 4.3 topped off so it wasnt the best conditions for rock hopping ?

i just dont want to be out in the middle of the [@#$%&*!] and overheating and not being able to just add water out of my camelback?

jeff?

[qadsan]

I'm still running the same Evans NPG+ with excellent results and my cooling system is still sparkling brand new & bright inside & the hoses still feel new. When we go on group camping with multiple families, I'm the guy that usually takes the peewees out for the rides and some of these kids just want to go and go forever at a snails pace. In anycase, there's always some kid that's falling down here or there and I'm usually dismounting my bike, helping them up, making sure they're OK, helping them get their confidence back, getting their flooded bike started again, getting them back on their bike and helping them get underway and this happens over and over again. In the mean time, my bike is sitting their idling happily away without boiling over or overheating ?. A few trips ago there were a few older kids with me on a peewee ride that was a bit technical and very slow. One of the XR250R's started to smell like burning oil and their clutch started slipping. A quad in the group was profusely boiling over and a new/used YZ426F also started to sound like Mr Coffee pot running on empty while my bike stayed happy the whole time. I'm convinced my bike would have boiled over with any water based coolant on that ride had I left it there idling like I was doing, but not so with the NPG+. I really like this product and it works very well for me, but you can't mix water with it. Then again, its water that's both the strong & weak link in our cooling systems. If water wasn't corrosive and it boiled at a much higher temperature without adding pressure while still maintaining its other thermal properties, then it would be more effective for us.

[SaltyWalrus]

But if that stuff doesn't expand, wouldn't be impossible to boil over? How do you know if your motor is running too hot?? I am leaning towards Engine Ice.

[qadsan]

I know my bike won't be running too hot for my application based on testing I did a few years ago. I drilled & tapped one of the frame plugs & the thermostat housing for 1/8 NPT so I could use thermistors to monitor & datalog both my coolant & oil temps. I tried to cause high temperatures by riding in the desert in the dunes during summer time when outside temps were 100F+, letting my bike idle for extended periods of time that surely would have caused conventional coolant to boil and I never seen temps that concerned me. In fact, what I found is that even when the stock coolant was boiling (upon purposely getting it to boil), the oil temps were still well below what our air cooled XR250R oil temps were when it was run in the same environment.

There's several guys here and on the Yahoo 650R group that have been running Evans with excellent results for years and I'm still quite happy with it and don't plan to change. Once a water based coolant starts to boil, it pretty much stops working and those localized temps rapidly rise inside your engine, particularly where steam is insulating the coolant from the metal. Evans on the other hand continues to work when the typical water based coolant has failed. I never had any boil over issues with the stock coolant during normal riding conditions, but I just didn't want the hassle of changing my coolant every 9 to 12 months, risking boil over during single track & summertime temps, potential corrosion issues, etc.

[jws]

my coolant was over a year old and now after my last ride its now all creek water with a hint of green ? i would like to run the evans - has anyone ever overheated with the evans???? like i said i only have overheated in slow 1st gear clutch riding (that i hate) i am just afraid if i have a problem again and cant just run water i will be screwed - i also run the kawi 1.8 cap if i switch to the evans should i put the 1.1 cap back on?

thanks, jeff

[Pig_N_CR5hundy]

I must have missed something, why would putting the 1.1 cap back on with the Evans be better than running the 1.8 still?

[jws]

In regards to Evans, even though they say that mechanical changes aren't "required" you would be wise to at least search out a zero pressure radiator cap. Not sure where to find one though.

Evans under pressure would have an astronomical boil point, and that makes most folks a bit uncomforable...including myself.

???

i would like to know also

[qadsan]

One other nice thing about Evans besides it being a lifetime coolant is that you don't have to run any pressure, which means your seals & hoses won't be stressed, and that's a valid concern when running a higher pressure rad cap. I just use the stock rad cap. I've never had a need to add more Evans to my cooling system and I don't know anybody whose overheated because of the Evans product in this application. If you do switch to Evans, you'll have to get all the water out of your cooling system and or use their flush product to minimize any water in the system to get the most from the Evans product. Mooneyes Racing in Santa Fe Springs sells it at a reasonable price.

Edit:

You don't have to run a zero pressure cap. Evan's just allows you to have the 'benefit' of running a zero pressure cap. Higher pressures in the cooling system will only shorten the life of seals, hoses, etc. Less pressure is a good thing.

A higher boiling point is a good thing IMHO and it's irrelavant to normal engine operating temperatures. The boiling point of the coolant does not dictate the engine operating temperature. There are obvious signs when a bike is running too hot and I've witnessed & experienced them numerous times on other peoples bikes over the years who thought running a higher pressure rad cap was their solution or they used the wrong kind of coolant, or they ran out of coolant, or their oil was shot or didn't have enough volume, or they jetted their bikes way too lean, etc. If you've ever ridden a bike that's been jetted way too lean to where it's obviously detonating, you'll feel the heat from the engine between your legs, which should be a clue that your bike is running too hot. Besides feeling the higher engine operating temperatures and probably smelling your oil burning, you'll start to experience preignition & detonation issues and your bike will start to run like crap well before the Evans starts to boil. It's a common sense issue to me in that if the bike feels too hot and or smells like something is burning and or is having pre-ignition/detonation issues, then there's obviously something wrong and it shouldn't be ridden further until the problem is resolved.

[SaltyWalrus]

Sounds like you've done your homework. I should have known!

[Dirt4me]

Just don't let any animals get a hold of it as it will harm or kill them

How else can I get rid of the cats in my neighborhood? Here kitty, kitty, here's a nice fresh bowl of Prestone for you! ?

[loufish]

They recommend you make some mechanical changes to your system in order to use it. So, we will eliminate them from this discussion.

Sounds like you are the guy to ask...I have run the same Engine Ice for about 1-1/2 yrs, and it seems to work for me. Now, do I have to change it every year? Do I have to do some sort of prep to get the most out of EI?, I ride desert/trails, and do not race.

[qadsan]

loufish,

Here's the text from the Engine Ice web site FAQ...

http://www.engineice.cc/faq.html

-----------------------------------------------------------

How often do I need to change it and are there any special requirements?

Most every coolant product will work best when changed somewhat regularly…at minimum, we’d recommend once a year.

For racing applications, we actually recommend twice per year. The cleaner you can keep your cooling system and the fresher you can keep a fluid, the better it will perform.

There are no special requirements for using Engine Ice.

For any coolant and anytime you are changing coolant, we recommend a simple solution of distilled water and white distilled vinegar, both available at your local grocery store.

1. Mix the water/vinegar at 50/50

2. Fill system with the solution

3. Run engine until warm

4. Let cool

5. Drain

6. Run clear water through to rinse out vinegar.

7. Fill with coolant of choice.

This is the same as cleaning your coffee maker. The vinegar is acidic enough to clean out and contaminants and residual coolants, yet it won’t harm your seals and gaskets.

[SaltyWalrus]

Alright qadsan, you converted me. Initially, the concept of not being able to boiling over scared me. Kind of makes it a closed system. I've done some poking around and it sounds like everyone using Evans is a strong advocate. It is a hot topic on the yahoo board at the moment, too. It seems that others have also monitored oil temperatures to the point they had no concerns. Only question is....where do I buy it? Did you order it off the net or have you seen it at major retailers?

[qadsan]

I bought mine off the shelf from a place called MoonEyes Racing in SoCal. You can buy it directly from Evans, but they have a dealer list which you can check out to see if there's a dealer in your area and some dealers offer free shipping if there's not one convenient to you. It's important to remove all of the water and old coolant from your system for Evans to work best and if you have any doubts about being able to remove all the old coolant/water, then I'd also suggest buying their prep fluid. One gallon is almost exactly enough for two bikes. Here's their dealer list.

http://www.evanscooling.com/html/dealer1.htm

[JackAttack]

How do you know if you have gotten all the water out?

What procedure did you use to remove all the water? ?

Maybe, drain it all, leave the system open, and run the bike for a few minutes. Steam it out??

Is there any need to run the overflow bottle with Evan's??

Seems like it would be great for the supermotard guys.?

More info........Master Qadsan.?