Baja-Designs XR650R Electric Start Kit Install Notes


22 replies to this topic
  • Tarkus

Posted August 22, 2004 - 08:41 AM

#1

Greetings all.
Here's some key-points I encountered installing Baja-Designs electric start kit for those of you considering one yourselves.
First of all I've gotta say this kit's a beauty if some extra steps are taken before proceeding with the bolt up.
1.) A good sharp file and some patience were needed to match the not quite flat e-motor mating surface to the perfectly flat CNC machined side case surface.
2.) The e-motor Allen head mounting bolts need their head diameters turned down on a lathe (I used a bench grinder) to clear the side of the start-motor.
3.) The dull-grey top and bottom castings on the e-motor polish up beautifully using the old file, emery-cloth, and steel-wool routine.
4.) The e-motor "body",in my opinion, looks 1000% better on the side of a hot-pig if painted with low gloss black engine enamel.
5.) A little grease was used to prevent galling when pressing the slightly less than perfectly circular starter ring-gear onto the flywheel. De-greasing followed.
6.) The three cable clamp screws used inside the CNC case need flat and lock-washers (not included) to prevent bottoming before snug up.
7.) The large left foot-peg bolt had to be removed temporarily to get the new shift-lever onto the correct spline.
8.) My XR's only 15T case-saver had to be removed (the battery tray uses some of the same mount points)
9.) Care is needed to position the stock stator cable-stay out of the way below the clutch actuator levers path when torquing in the battery tray. Route the cable through this stay straight across to the right, under the front of the tray, then pull it rearward under the solenoid coming up at the carb. vent tube bundle. Also watch the crankcase breather hose, it contacts a sharp corner of the tray (file the corners smooth before tray install).
10.) If like me you have one of the "3-wire" voltage regulator / rectifiers sold for a short while some time ago by Baja-Designs you need to replace it with the "4-wire" one included with the e-start kit. The "3-wire" model (one red & two yellow wires sticking out of the epoxy with a separate black ground wire loose in its' harness) regulated voltage by limiting its' input current rather than by shunting output current to ground; good in principal but they drained batteries quickly when sitting creating insufficient turn-on voltage for its' own reg. / rectifier circuit at engine restart, further pushing your battery into oblivion ;-) I never experienced this directly as I always pulled my battery after every ride.

The rest of the install is easy follow the steps stuff.
Now that's one hot-rod Honda muscle engine starter, if I do say so myself.
Ride-on guys, and thanks for lots of good info. from ya'll.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 23, 2004 - 09:10 AM

#2

I bought the kit when it first came out and it did not have a battery tray. It had a thin battery that mounted right under the seat on the top of the air box. I still have that set up cause the new battery tray and battery will not fit under the Edelbrock carb. I have decided when the thin battery wears out I am going to have to modify my air box and the tray to use the new battery and tray Baja Designs sent me if I want to keep my Edelbrock carb (which I do). Were talking major modifications to the air box but its the only way to resolve the problem and in the end I believe it will be superior to the choice made by Baja Designs. I don't like the idea of having a battery resting on its side underneath the carb. I believe they went that route cause of the added expense and hastle to mount the battery in the air box similar to the way KTM does it. My initial thought on how to accomplish this is the use of sheet metal, sealant and rivets or screw/nuts/washers. I then can build a battery box inside the airbox which comes through the top of the air box and is accessed by removing the seat. I can then use any carb I want on the BRP and the batter will not be submerged every time I cross a deep stream.

This will also allow me to retain the use of the case saver.

The starter kit is high quality and I may try to spruce up its appearance as you have with the heat paint. Ever think of going with red heat paint?

  • Tarkus

Posted August 23, 2004 - 11:21 AM

#3

Hello again.
I initially ordered my kit May 27th (one day before shipments stopped for battery design changes) When I first saw Joe racers tripple clamp battery mount I thought if no one makes a better e-start for the pig I'd buy his and modify my airbox like you are thinking, but I was leaning towards a plastic box slid into a cut-out in the top rear of the box, posibly forming the rear wall of the box, tire clearance to be determined by shock spring removal then observing full travel clearance with a fresh Knobby mounted.
As for a "red" e-motor barrel; I modified Baja-Designs first posted web-pic of the kit using Micro-softs "Paint" program to see what it would look like "black" and then "red" and after much deliberation "black" won out as it struck me more like a vintage "big-block" muscle engine starter should look...instantly recognizable for what it is.
Too bad the wheather just turned Cold-d-d-d the night I did the kit (temps. in the forties!! ~300 miles north of Montana) Oh well, should be in the seventies again by Thursday. I can't wait.
Have fun all.

  • norcal450rider

Posted August 23, 2004 - 01:44 PM

#4

Anybody know how much weight these things add to the pig(xr 650)? And is it an increase that's really noticeable on tight trails? :thumbsup:

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 23, 2004 - 02:15 PM

#5

Anybody know how much weight these things add to the pig(xr 650)? And is it an increase that's really noticeable on tight trails? :thumbsup:


It is about 11 or 13 pounds increase with the majority of the wieght being in the actual starter motor and side case fabrication.

No I do not really notice a weight difference on the tight trails. The BRP is a heavy trail bike anyway, so a few pounds make very little difference. I have put in about 80 miles of tight trail riding on mine.

So far I have not been in very many situations where I really needed the electric start but I purchased it knowing I was getting it for those rare times when kicking it would be difficult. You know when your trying to hold and balance the weight of the bike cause you killed it in a very awkward position. The new battery will be a big plus for this starter system. If you don't have an Edelbrock go for it.

  • moleculo

Posted August 23, 2004 - 08:17 PM

#6

I have decided when the thin battery wears out I am going to have to modify my air box and the tray to use the new battery and tray Baja Designs sent me if I want to keep my Edelbrock carb (which I do). Were talking major modifications to the air box but its the only way to resolve the problem and in the end I believe it will be superior to the choice made by Baja Designs. I don't like the idea of having a battery resting on its side underneath the carb. I believe they went that route cause of the added expense and hastle to mount the battery in the air box similar to the way KTM does it.


Wouldn't you be worried about the potential airflow restriction/disruption with a large battery stuck in the airbox? Also, unlike the KTM, the BRP's airbox is filtered which seems to me would make it critical that it does not leak or possibly ever develop a leak with vibration & hard landings. An airbox battery mount would have to be stout and well supported.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 23, 2004 - 08:57 PM

#7

I have decided when the thin battery wears out I am going to have to modify my air box and the tray to use the new battery and tray Baja Designs sent me if I want to keep my Edelbrock carb (which I do). Were talking major modifications to the air box but its the only way to resolve the problem and in the end I believe it will be superior to the choice made by Baja Designs. I don't like the idea of having a battery resting on its side underneath the carb. I believe they went that route cause of the added expense and hastle to mount the battery in the air box similar to the way KTM does it.


Wouldn't you be worried about the potential airflow restriction/disruption with a large battery stuck in the airbox? Also, unlike the KTM, the BRP's airbox is filtered which seems to me would make it critical that it does not leak or possibly ever develop a leak with vibration & hard landings. An airbox battery mount would have to be stout and well supported.


Your absolutely right. Thats why the design must be totally sound. I really do not think that will be all that hard to fabricate and get the kind of air seal needed by using rubber gaskets and washers combined with sealant. Since it will be at the upper back of the air box I do no believe it will restrict airflow much at all if any. I have friends who can fabricate a sheet metal box with a wide flanged edge which can take a gasket and completely seal the box off.

Also major anchor points will be the top of the subframe and the back of the stock air box as well as the lip of the box.I beleive you can get away with almost an inch of the batteries highth above the top of the air box and still clear the seat. That means it will only be dropping down about 2 to 2 1/2 inches into the air box itself. When I pull the subframe and take the air box loose I will know more exactly how it must be done.

The finished product must be as strong as a single piece preformed airbox designed to take a battery.

  • moleculo

Posted August 23, 2004 - 09:49 PM

#8

I believe they went that route cause of the added expense and hastle to mount the battery in the air box similar to the way KTM does it.


I beleive you can get away with almost an inch of the batteries highth above the top of the air box and still clear the seat. That means it will only be dropping down about 2 to 2 1/2 inches into the air box itself. When I pull the subframe and take the air box loose I will know more exactly how it must be done.


Do you plan to orient the battery the same way the KTM's is? That would be great, but if you did, wouldn't the battery drop further than 2.5" into the airbox with 1" of the battery outside? Lay it flat perhaps?
Call me paranoid, but I think I'd still be a little concerned with air restriction. I guess I'd need to hold the actual battery up to the bike to know.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 23, 2004 - 11:36 PM

#9

Do you plan to orient the battery the same way the KTM's is? That would be great, but if you did, wouldn't the battery drop further than 2.5" into the airbox with 1" of the battery outside? Lay it flat perhaps?
Call me paranoid, but I think I'd still be a little concerned with air restriction. I guess I'd need to hold the actual battery up to the bike to know.




It may not be as easy as I have planned. Until I take a closer look at the air box I won't know. But it is the only place to mount a battery and keep my Edelbrock. I had not planned on mounting the battery flat. When you want a thing bad enough there is a way. Necessity is the mother of invention. :thumbsup:

  • qadsan

Posted August 24, 2004 - 07:31 AM

#10

Would there be any more room for the battery if you rotated the Edelbrock a bit one way or another? It should still run fine that way, but maybe it will give you a wee bit more room???

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  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 24, 2004 - 08:26 AM

#11

Would there be any more room for the battery if you rotated the Edelbrock a bit one way or another? It should still run fine that way, but maybe it will give you a wee bit more room???


It hangs down about 1/2 to 3/4 inch too much. That would take quite a tilt to clear. Good thought. Oh btw, you remember that problem I was having with the Edelbrock fuel shut off sticking closed? I added Marvel Mystery Oil to my fuel to fix it. :thumbsup:

  • MotorPsychoSport

Posted August 24, 2004 - 03:56 PM

#12

Tarkus, OMT,

Let me start my saying that the new E start battery will fit just fine with the EB carb and the XR's only case saver and counter shaft sprocket cover installed.

In the case of the EB carb all you need to do is very slightly rotate the carb to give you just enough room to clear the battery :lol:

In the case of the case saver :awww: there should be a thick washer that came with it that goes behind that rather large mounting nut that replaces the motor mount nut. Just find a thinner washer combo that is the same thickness as the washers that came with the case saver because the battery tray mount is acting like a washer already, so just find the right thinner washer to put on top of that so your case saver mounting nut is spaced out the same distance. Sorry if that sounds confusing. That little additional mounting tab only needs a little half S bend to clear the case saver and a slightly longer bolt. :devil:

I can put a few pics up of my set up but that is something I have not done before, could someone tell me how to do it? :thumbsup:

Jeff

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 24, 2004 - 06:05 PM

#13

Qadsan mentioned that too, and I was going to investigate before I went through all the trouble of cutting my air box up. Thanks for the information it is very helpful. I just went out to ride my BRP and the Edelbrock carb is acting up again. Guess I didn't fix it when I replaced the seat and valve and used Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel. The valve is once again blocking fuel from entering the carb. This is getting to be a real pain. Again, thank you guys for the information.

  • Tarkus

Posted August 24, 2004 - 08:17 PM

#14

Thanks all for the feedback.

Just an additional note to let ya'll know that thankfully after pulling the battery tray and filling smooth all the sharp edges that the crank vent hose pretty much JUST clears the corner of the tray. Also to update the optimal stator cable routing I suggested in my initial post on this thread; I've now found it best to pass the cable through the repositioned stock cable stay as I mentioned, THEN BEFORE pushing the bolts into the tray mounts angle the cable diagonally rearwards towards the carb vent tube bundle as there IS enough clearance directly below the tray here (BEFORE THE TRAY'S MOUNTED) to run the cable along this shortest logical path.

I'll try and borrow a digital cam to post some pics soon (although I've never posted digi-pics before and will need to research the best way how)

Oh yeah...one more note for Old_Man_Time... After taking another good hard look at the red-hot pig what you said got me thinkin'... and I realised that you were right...the "BLUE" dot on top of the e-start motor's gotta go!!...Red touch-up paint here I come!!... Ain't no BLUE speckled pig's 'round here!!...I RIDE RED!!!...(And have for 26 years!!)...[And Elsinore "silver & green" before that!!...I started young...]and so on, and so on...I got the message :thumbsup:

MPS, I'll take another look, I did think about washer spacing but I noticed that the inner surface of XR onlys' 15T case saver had counter sinks to center it in front of the sprocket and I wondered if a tab bend would make it work or not...I'll let you know. :devil:

"Appy roostin' ev'ryone."

  • huntmaster

Posted August 26, 2004 - 05:00 AM

#15

Yikes...does the BRP really need a kickstarter? It has to be one of the best starting bikes I've owned and Honda went to great lengths ensuring that when it was designed. It starts better then my old XR600 and XR400. And the BRP really doesn't need the extra weight! Plus the cost to do this?

I really like my 650 but if I just had to have a button I think I would just trade it for a WR-450 and save all the fuss, cost and extra weight! Or just enjoy one of the best kick starting trail bikes out there! :thumbsup:

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 26, 2004 - 07:34 AM

#16

Yikes...does the BRP really need a kickstarter? It has to be one of the best starting bikes I've owned and Honda went to great lengths ensuring that when it was designed. It starts better then my old XR600 and XR400. And the BRP really doesn't need the extra weight! Plus the cost to do this?

I really like my 650 but if I just had to have a button I think I would just trade it for a WR-450 and save all the fuss, cost and extra weight! Or just enjoy one of the best kick starting trail bikes out there! :thumbsup:


Agreed, the XR650R is an easy kickstarting bike. My XR600 was way harder to start. The purpose of the E-Button is not because the XR650 is hard to start bike. There are situations where your trying to balance the bike and do not have a lot of room to work with, like on the side of a narrow open face cliff trail. Or on a very steep climb and you kill it. The E-Button is something your glad to have in such situations. Yes you can and do learn to live without it when you do not have one. I did for 4 years. I never could understand why Honda didn't include at least the option for one. KTM did on their 525 and 625SXC. When the opportunity came to put one on my 650 I jumped on it. I really don't need it most of the time. But on those occasions when I do, I just smile.

And why would I want a WR450?

  • qadsan

Posted August 26, 2004 - 07:47 AM

#17

...trying to balance the bike and do not have a lot of room to work with...



Like when I go riding with newbies and take up the rear only to have them stop at the top of a narrow inclined trail so that I don't have room to go around and end up stuck on the hill in a precarious situation :awww:

...or...

When helping another rider who fell of his bike on a steep off-camber trail with loose dirt and then having fun trying to start your bike as the rear tire starts sliding sideways while kicking :thumbsup:

...etc...

The magic button could some in handy sometimes :devil:

  • huntmaster

Posted August 26, 2004 - 08:36 AM

#18

[/QUOTE]
I never could understand why Honda didn't include at least the option for one. KTM did on their 525 and 625SXC.

[/QUOTE]

Honda developed the 650R in the late 90's, when kick start only dirt bikes were the norm and BEFORE the introduction of the ill-starting WR/YZ400F Yamahas, of which I owned. Thanks to them EVERY off road bike suddenly HAD to have a button, at the insistance of the magazine testor-types, whether the bike actually kick started good or not! Honda went to great lengths at the time over the previous XR, with a redesigned kickstarter, more leverage and a quicker gearing ratio which spun the engine over quicker. That was Honda's answer to starting woes at the time, and unlike the Yamaha...it actually starts!

If for some reason the button is a MUST for someone, all I was trying to say is that as much as I like the BRP, buying the KTM, WR, Husky or whatever is a much more cost effective and potentially satisfying solution that won't leave you with a 300+ lb bike when your done. :thumbsup:

  • Tarkus

Posted August 27, 2004 - 02:18 PM

#19

I had a 1981 XR500R (the first year of the Pro-Links, it also had a reed-valve upstream of the intake valves) With the auto-decompression I could "kick-start" it by hand whenever I felt like bragging to the boys' and without throttle it would just start thumpin' away at a perfect idle. You guys all make good valid points. I guess "to E or not to E" depends mostly on your riding priorities. If you have a few thoroughbreds in the stable for the more challenging rides and mostly fly the pig through the wild-open spaces (cross-country exploration, dual-sport, etc.) It all just boils down to laziness and convenience! :thumbsup: (...speaking strictly for myself...of coarse) :devil:

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted August 27, 2004 - 06:31 PM

#20

Tarkus, OMT,

Let me start my saying that the new E start battery will fit just fine with the EB carb and the XR's only case saver and counter shaft sprocket cover installed.

In the case of the EB carb all you need to do is very slightly rotate the carb to give you just enough room to clear the battery :thumbsup:

In the case of the case saver :devil: there should be a thick washer that came with it that goes behind that rather large mounting nut that replaces the motor mount nut. Just find a thinner washer combo that is the same thickness as the washers that came with the case saver because the battery tray mount is acting like a washer already, so just find the right thinner washer to put on top of that so your case saver mounting nut is spaced out the same distance. Sorry if that sounds confusing. That little additional mounting tab only needs a little half S bend to clear the case saver and a slightly longer bolt. :awww:

Jeff



Jeff, I just spent the better part of the day converting my Baja Designs Electric start to the new battery tray system. You are right, I tipped the Edelbrock a bit and it cleared the battery. I also was able to use my casesaver. I am quite happy with it, I could feel the extra juice the minute I hit the button. The only concern I have now is that when I tipped the carb the very outer edge of the carb bowl sits right above the exhaust. I hope this does not create more problems with my Edelbrock.





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