NOLOGY? Has anyone else used this?


15 replies to this topic
  • BWB63

Posted August 21, 2004 - 08:14 PM

#1

Has anyone used this or a different coil or ignition?

I got this off the Yahoo site;
You can go on the web site
www.hotwires.com
This is a spark plugs cable with a built-in capacitor everuthing is explain on the website
i first try only the cable and a none resistor spark plug (from nology also)
i paid like $3 the sparkplug and $30/35 the cable, but there is a special discount for the memenbers of the group
the first cable was delivered with a rubber to large for the pig, so i went there with my pig to show them the problem : The rubber was touching the decompressor lever
They made an other one, that works great and don't touch anything
with this setting the bike was much more easyier to start cold AND hot
the sound is not exactly the same
it was BOOOOM BOOOOM BOOOOM and it became BOOM BOOM
BOOM
you have to turn your gas screw out for 1/4 turn or 1/2 turn to be a liitle richer
the throttle response is faster (i've never tried an edlebrock, so i can't compare) in the low end and the bike goes in the rpm more quickly
The nology team gave me the coil to thanks me for the job
And i put it behind the right radiator. (much bigger than the stock one ,, doesn't fit the stock place)
The BRP pull harder everywhere very noticeably and it goes WAY better in the rpm
In fact i really notice it when i tried a pal's pig last week that is much more race prepared than mine
Big difference
My setting are
san diego elevation 0'
main 182 or 185
HRC needle 3rd clip
pilot 68s
full open cover
UNI air filter
WB R4 complete exhaust with spark arrestor

The difference is (for me ) more important than the one i've got when i change the muffler WB R4/ stock w HRC TIP
I use it since february and no problem so far
AND CHEAP

Call jeff at NOLOGY, he is a nice guy. Tell him you're from the forum and you know me to have the best deal.

i join some pics
f

  • qadsan

Posted August 21, 2004 - 08:31 PM

#2

If a product truly makes a significant different, then the performance will be able to be instrumented such as with a dynomometer. I've still not seen independant dyno testing to show how well this product works. I've heard stories on both sides of the fence from people who have bought this and similar products. Don't rule out the placeebo effect on this or any product for that matter. Here's an interesting read on these types of products. Be sure to read the section under Capacitor Effect Wires.

http://www.magnecor....ecor1/truth.htm

  • BWB63

Posted August 21, 2004 - 08:58 PM

#3

Thanks,
This guy seems to hate all after market wires :thumbsup:

  • qadsan

Posted August 21, 2004 - 11:08 PM

#4

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but just how well does it really work. Where's the dyno results? If an aftermarket product increases the power in a given engine, then the power increase can surely be instrumented. I'd just like to see this power increase instrumented for more clarity. There's been tons of products sold with great marketing behind them, especially when it comes to oil additives that made all kinds of claims which were endorsed by celebraties, professional racers, engineers, etc. There were plenty of consumers who made claims of huge performance increases, huge increases in MPG, increased reliability, etc, but there were plenty of people who didn't experience these positive aspects even though they were using the same product. Many years later a number of these companies were investigated by the FTC who found many of these claims to be fraudulent. I just don't buy every claim that's made and don't believe everything I hear or read. Now maybe this is truly a great product, but I'd like to see this thing instrumented for more clarity as opposed to hearing inconsistent seat of the pants stories.

Here's another interesting site I just found while surfing.
http://iwcweb.com/ec...ml/warning.html
http://www.honda-tec...hread?id=275611

I'm not sure what pricing you're being quoted on the Nology parts if you've even got that far yet, but when I was looking into buying this product directly from Nology earlier this year, a guy by the name of Werner from Nology was willing to sell me the wire for $25.20 and the coil for $51.80, which was significantly discounted from their retail pricing. I was close to buying it at that price and really wanted to be a believer, but I'd just like to see some hard results posted as opposed to hear say.

Ever heard of the iCat? That's another product to check out along these lines, but again, there's people on both sides of the fence where some say it made a huge difference and others said it did nothing. The Dyno results I seen were less than impressive, but maybe there's more to this story than meets the eye? Maybe the dyno was setup improperly or ???

http://www.icatusa.com

  • BWB63

Posted August 22, 2004 - 08:09 AM

#5

I got the stir stick out now! On the Yahoo site! It can work I just think it's a sales pitch without backing on both sides. I will read your other site also, I want to go to church now. The trouble I see is what you have said, "where is the Dyno charts from someone who has bought one, not a advertisement.
--- Capacitor reactance is an exact science. I work high voltage and
personaly have a 360,000 volt Tesla coil and a 1,200,000 volt Tesla
coil. Biuld our own capacitors for these. I have a capacictor meter
and it would be nice to get a reading of the capacitance of this
wire. I have a voltage meter for reading voltage to 66,000 volts.
Also it would be nice to see the dyno charts of before and after. The
problem so far is, all the info is conected to
comercails...Advertisements! That's is why I deleted my last finding
because it was a Advertisement knocking others to sell theres. Even
the last one for it, was just a rehash of Nology spill. No
independent dyno readings. Capacitors work by the charging of the
dielectric (nonconducting layer)the return is of a higher curent.
There is a voltage agian if the capacitor is big enough. 6" of wire
and depending on the dielectric constant. The electrical size of a
capacitor is its capacitance, the amount of electric charge it can
hold. You can get some gain in curent in this small capacitor but,
not the voltage agains they claim. Do the math. 300 times 35,000
volts is an exageration!

  • qadsan

Posted August 22, 2004 - 09:24 AM

#6

Do the math



I'm a bit rusty here and I'm pulling this off the top of my head from many years ago, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't we be more concerned with Joules here since we want to know the energy stored in a capacitor? One Joule = one watt for one second. As I recall, the formula for determining the energy stored in a capacitor is:

E=(1/2)CV^2

E = Energy stored in a given capacitor (Joules)
C = Capacitance in farads
V = Voltage potential

So if we had a capacitor storing & releasing energy very quickly (i.e. 800 microfarads) with a potential voltage (i.e. 500 volts), the energy stored with these values in mind would be 100 Joules.

E=(1/2)CV^2
E=1/2(800*10-6)*(500^2)
E = 100 Joules

If we knew the duration of the spark pulse, we could easily determine the power used (one of several ways to do it). For instance, if the duration was 5 milliseconds, we'd simply take the energy in joules and divide it by the duration of the spark pulse to get the watt power used. i.e. 100 Joules / .005 = 20,000 watts.

Nology claims they deliver a spark 300 time greater than a conventional wire. Are they talking about delivering 300 times more energy or 300 times more voltage or a spark 300 times bigger or a spark lasting 300 times longer or ???

What's the value of the Nology capacitor and what is the voltage we're dealing with? I think between several of us here we might be able to figure this out, but having several independant results from a dyno would certainly be interesting :thumbsup:

  • berger

Posted August 22, 2004 - 09:44 AM

#7

I paid $45.00 for no noticable improvement in starting or performance. I'm not saying don't buy it, but....

  • BWB63

Posted August 22, 2004 - 12:41 PM

#8

Yes, you are right
I was reading it as they are giving you 300 times the voltage which is insane! It does say more powerful. Which is not voltage alone? P=ExI (voltage x current) Because only a purely resistive circuit is true power calculated this way we have to know Power Factor (PF) True Power (watts)\Apparaent Power (volt amps) calculate true power TP = E X I X PF
I have to look it up but, I think our coil puts out 35,000volts at 3ma

Their coil puts out 45,000 volts at 3ma? If 30ma that would be crazy gains for such a small coil but, can be done (lots of heat). That's a 100 times gain right there! You could find out real quick....grab the stock coil wire and have someone kick the bike over....it will hurt but, you could laugh it off (well maybe a small grin)....grab a 45,000 volt coil at 30ma and you'll be picking yourself up off the floor, if you live through it! I got bit by 9,000 volts at 30ma from a neon sign transformer from hand to hand and thought my head was going to pop off!
There wire is a much lower resistance, spark plug has no resistor. Just reducing the resistance will get more of the power (watts here read in ma) to the plug. There isn't enough capacitance reactance and the inductive reactance of the coil to bring it to a Ferro resonance condition at the plug. There is no way there capacitor is out of the mf range, maybe not even out of the pf range. You are only talking a foot at the most. You can figure out the farads if you know the dielectric constant of the insulation, the distance between the plates (wire and shielding) and the area of the plates. It would be nice to get a real meter on one of these to get a reading and then do the math. Both are bending the truth to get there point (product) across. Wire resistance and the plug resistance is a big factor here. Ohm's law never changes. Electricity takes the path of least resistance.
As told below car primary amperes (primary being the 12volt side) is 6 amps (I don’t think our bikes use that much, or even half that much); secondary side (plug side) being 3 ma .003 amps at the plug and they can raise that 300 times and come up with 1,000 amps? 900ma is what I would come up with. At 45,000 volts that is impressive and would make a much better spark. The cables on a car are much, much longer and can gain much more capacitance (if made into a capacitor) then our short cable for our bike.

Claims by Nology of their "HotWires" creating sparks that are "300 times more powerful," reaching temperatures of "100,000 to 150,000 degrees F" (more than enough to melt spark plug electrodes), spark durations of "4 billionths of a second" (spark duration is controlled by the ignition system itself) and currents of "1,000 amperes" magically evolving in "capacitors" allegedly "built-in" to the ignition wires are as ridiculous as the data and the depiction of sparks in photographs used in advertising material and the price asked for these wires! Most stock ignition primaries are regulated to 6 amperes and the most powerful race ignition to no more than 40 amperes at 12,000 RPM.

There is lying from both sides here. You can’t come up with the same numbers (1,000 ampers) but, you can change the frequency (time) of the spark with capacitance.

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  • bikesinmud

Posted August 24, 2004 - 06:15 AM

#9

I've used the coil and hotwire on my brp for 2 years now. The biggest difference I found was that my milage increased by approx 20k per tank. I found the bike was easier to start even with the edelbrock carb. The only problem was mounting the coil. I had no trouble with water crossings, vibration or wear and tear on the spark plug wire. I bolted mine to the left upper tab on the right radiator where the Califonia air pump goes. I also had to make the existing coil wires longer inorder to reach it as well. Mine is for sale (quite cheap) since I'm parting with my BRP this month. Any other questions let me know. :thumbsup:

  • BWB63

Posted August 24, 2004 - 04:35 PM

#10

I sent you a PM How Much

  • BWB63

Posted September 04, 2004 - 11:44 AM

#11

--- I received the Nology ProFire Ignition coil and Hotwire Yesterday. Thanks, for the awesome price!

I dicected the wire and this is what I found. I do not have the spark plug.

The Hotwire plug wire is a coil wound spark plug wire with a 8.25” shield over the wire to gain some capacitance. The wound wire has a resistance of 490 ohm’s for the 17” length and it was 29 ohm’s per inch also. (so there is no breaks in the wire) With a capacitance reading of 32.4 pf. This is a major low reading, just touching one probe with your finger gives you 16pf. You can get a reading of 9.3 pf By putting one probe on the inside wire and the other pressed against the outside. For how small this units is one, deci equals one-tenth, centi equals one-hundredth, milli equals one-thousandth, micro equals one-millionth, nano equals one-billionth, and pico equals one-trillionth most capacitors are in Micro Farads one millionth of a Farad but, this is 32.4 Pico Farads 32 Trillionth of a Farad

Capacitance, ability of a circuit system to store electricity. The capacitance of a capacitor is measured in farads and is determined by the formula C = q/V, where q is the charge (in coulombs) on one of the conductors and V is the potential difference (in volts) between the conductors. The capacitance depends only on the thickness, area, and composition of the capacitor's dielectric (insulation).

A HotWire is nothing more that spiral wound sparkplug wire with a 8.25” shielding picking up a very marginal capacitance reactance. As for if it makes a differance?? There is capacitance. You can make your own by buying a spiral wound spark plug wire and shielding it. Then put a cool red cover over it and a catchy name. Most of your spark gain is in the lower resistance of the wire and no resistance in the plug. Add a hot coil and you are incressing the spark to the plug alot! I think the wire helps sell the rest.

These test were done with a Global Specialties Capacitor meter, Fluke 87 True RMS Volt meter and the AVO Megger (BM403/2). All calibrated by SSID of Southern California Edison.

After I get the milliamp meter from work and the high voltage meter, I will tell the difference of the stock out put and the Nology.

  • Dutch

Posted September 04, 2004 - 01:22 PM

#12

Keep an eye out for that swirly thing that fits in front of the carb - it's like an air capacitor.

  • BWB63

Posted September 04, 2004 - 05:52 PM

#13

---ok I did the math......well maybe not.....
HELP
I don't work in Pico farads very much....well ok, haven't in 16 years when I was making a RF pre amp. So, I don't even know if I put the decimal in the right place. Like most I don't do the math that's what meters and an Oscilloscope are for.

45000 x 45000 volts x .000000000033f x .5 = .33412 but, if I got the decimal wrong it would be 33.4 that would be something! If we get this straight then we would know if the capacitor of the wire was worth it. If it is everyone could make it!

  • qadsan

Posted September 04, 2004 - 08:06 PM

#14

1 pico = 0.000,000,000,001

32.4 pico farads = 0.000,000,000,032,4

45000 * 45000 volts * 0.000,000,000,032,4 * 5 = .32805

  • BWB63

Posted September 05, 2004 - 07:31 AM

#15

Well thanks, I think I missed one zero in what I wrote. So, it is off one? As you can see I just rounded it off to 33. That is one heck of alot of zeros! I was thinking I must be putting to many! I would count them and then the answer is so low I though, 'man I am going to write this and someone is going to say I missed it!' Well That's that. Looks like the wire is a little hooodo Vooodo! There is a little conditioning going on but, knowing you can make it yourself. I think it's advertizing for the rest. I do think the lower resistance of the wire helps but, then again I haven't taken the stock one off yet to check it.

  • qadsan

Posted September 05, 2004 - 11:54 AM

#16

Checking the stock wire is a key as there may not be a huge difference between the two. Wouldn't it be funny if the stock wire performed better than the hoodoo voodoo wire :thumbsup:

The higher output coil may be producing a higher output voltage, but how much current is in the spark? The final current is limited by the internal resistance of the coil. Have you checked the internal resistance of both the stock & Nology coils? The output voltage is determined by the rate of field collapse and the windings ratio between primary and secondary.

The path to ground for the current through the spark plug has an extremely high initial resistance (spark plug gap), which allows the voltage to build up a very high value until it gets high enough to ionize the gas (air/fuel mixture) between the electrodes and jump the gap (spark!). It’s the ionized gas that creates the conductive path (arc between electrodes) for the spark current to flow. No matter how much voltage there is in a given ignition system for an internal combustion engine, there’s a point where a maximum voltage is reached. The maximum voltage is the voltage required for the arc to jump the spark plug gap and I believe any additional voltage is wasted. As cylinder pressures increase, so does the need for a higher voltage to jump the spark plugs gap, but our XR650R’s are pretty tame when it comes to cylinder pressures. The spark duration is primarily determined by the coil inductance & total reactance of the circuit plus the spark plug gap. The resistance of a spark plug wire will have a minimal affect on the discharge time because of the high voltage involved, so I don’t buy the claims where some wires are also able to offer extended spark duration in addition to claims of providing huge increases in spark energy. Once the air/fuel mixture is ignited, I don’t believe the progression rate of the flame front can be improved with a larger or more powerful spark. The flame speed itself is dependant on various factors such as the air/fuel ratio, the charge density, charge harmony, characteristics of the fuel, the charge turbulence, etc. If there were huge gains to be had from special spark plug wires & coils, we’d likely see this technology on various leading edge bikes such as the CRF’s, YZF’s, KTM’s, RMZ’s, etc.





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