Need to find the loudest PIPE!
Posted August 23, 2004 - 10:19 AM
Their Goal: Get all OHVs out of the woods and get evil humans out of large tracts of land.
They work backwards folks. Given the goal above they bring up noise, polution, habitat, erosion, anything and everything they can dream up to reach their goal.
So we need to fight back on all fronts. By not letting them push through laws and rules on the leagal side. And by being responsible users of all of these areas so their arguments do not stand up to ours.
I was talking with a Pike National Forest Ranger at a recent work party at the Rampart Range OHV area (closest trail system to Denver) and he told me that the fact that over 20,000 man hours of volenteer trail maintenace coordinated with the park service is logged every year goes a long way twards the OHV community staying on the good side of the rangers.
My $.02 is.
Be responsible, give back, and fight the Enviro-Nazis every chance you get.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 10:27 AM
Given the goal above they bring up noise, polution, habitat, erosion, anything and everything they can dream up to reach their goal
By not letting them push through laws and rules on the leagal side
One of the first things that got me started in the noise debate was the part our support groups had in pushing through the 96 DB limit. The BRC use to have some stuff on thier website about support of even a lower limit but it's gone now. The old limit of 101DB was not enforced. I wish they would have fought for enforcement of that before supporting more restrictive laws passed by the Forest Service.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 11:57 AM
I would agree that, if it wasn't noise, many of our riding areas would be under attack for other reasons. But far fewer people care about Milkweed than about motorcycle sounds that travel for miles. Erosion is easier to fix than the reverberations of "the loudest PIPE!".
Noise is an issue used against us every place I ride. Except, perhaps, Pueblo, since they are co-located with a stock car track and a drag strip.
THE NET: a 3-4db louder pipe isn't going to get you around the motocross track noticeably faster or enable you to clear a double you couldn't get over before or result in a better finish at a desert race or help you up a tricky hill on your favorite trail ride. It simply won't. All it will do is add fuel to the noise argument used against us all across the country.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 12:05 PM
The old limit of 101DB was not enforced. I wish they would have fought for enforcement of that before supporting more restrictive laws passed by the Forest Service.
Isn't that how every law gets passed? You always get a chance to police yourself until you prove that you can't (or won't). Then you have to live with a law someone else hands down whether it is palatable to you or not. Bearing in mind that whoever imposes the law is probably not an impartial bystander it will be harsher than you deserve.
There are enough people in our industry saying that noise is a problem. So there must be a problem. It is not the only problem facing off road riding but it is one that we can at least take an active stance that we want to control it. We didn't when we had a chance at 101. Why should we not now try to ‘be quiet’ before the law steps in with further laws that are so stringent that they ruin our sport. Believe me there are plenty of groups that will use any angle they can to throw us out of the woods. The noise issue is as good a starting place for them as any.
In other words if you thumb your nose at the noise issue we will end up with bikes that are really really quiet and really really slow if we have bikes at all.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 01:03 PM
If, however, you just like arguing, then by all means, keep doing what you're doing.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 02:32 PM
Approximately 20% of the track was shut down due to noise complaints from neighbors. And their hours have been severely restricted due to noise complaints. Noise is an issue the folks that are moving near Valley Dirt Riders (Berthoud) are using to try to shut it down. And Watkins. And Lakewood.
Rippin, I have to say your following the old line on this that is very frustrating. Why is it that you think noise is a problem at these tracks??
I have to tell you the evidence I have seen is way different. I have been to meetings about Watkins getting shut down and sound wasn't even mentioned. It was the ambulance service running out there and the dust being kicked up by the traffic going out there. Berthoud has a dust issue, noise is also mentioned, plus they are in a frivolous lawsuit right now. 2 Rivers was into a bunch of issues which noise was part of but dust and traffic was a bigger part of. My understanding of the problems at Lakewood were insurance, and operator.
Please check out your info on those areas. Thats exactly why I ask for proof in my post. For the last year every area except 2 that has been given to me was related to some bigger issue.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 02:40 PM
You always get a chance to police yourself until you prove that you can't (or won't).
No, this is one way laws are passed. The forest service and local jurisdictions are in charge of enforcement. For some reason they wouldn't enforce the old law. They now enforce the new. Why were they not encourged to enforce the old law before passing a new one. It's a common scene in our society that we don't need more laws we need to enforce the ones we have.
There are enough people in our industry saying that noise is a problem. So there must be a problem.
I would ask you to look at the evidence and make up your own mind. Not what me or anyone says. One of the biggest voices for "noise is a problem" is the BRC. Go to there web site, look past the opinon pieces and look at what is on thier own web site about what is shutting down areas.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 02:47 PM
I do contribute to the cause. I write letters, have joined orgs, helped with clean up, gone to meetings. I feel it is important to get our people to see the real issues. Like I stated if we get people to fight a fight based on noise, we lower the noise of our bikes we will still be loosing the same amount of area due to the things that do get things shut down. We will jade the thoughts of those involved. People involved want to see thier efforts accomplish something or they won't try anymore.
I'm not arguing just to argue. This is something I feel strongly about. And everyone still posting legit post here does to. I give a big thumbs up to everyone that cares about this issue, even if we disagree
Posted August 23, 2004 - 04:08 PM
Posted August 23, 2004 - 07:08 PM
Posted August 23, 2004 - 09:02 PM
would recommend that all you loud pipe lovers join the Blue Ribbon Coalition so you can learn how your childish lust for volume is closing riding areas.
I would love for you to show me some proof of it closing riding areas. It doesn't!!!!
When I had my bike I knew a guy who ran an asphault paving company, hence he owned over 200 acres of gravel pits. The problem was that one of the best spots was near some bitchy ladies house. She called the police on any bike/quad she saw down there complaining that they were loud and were making dust fly at her house and it was diturbing her. Of course the cops told her that she could promptly kiss their azzes because we were riding on private land with permission. But she continuesd to pester everyone she could. Eventually she got so full of herself that she was calling the land owner 3-4 times per day about it. He got so annoyed with her that he gave up and planted grass along the edges of the pit and closed it to all the off roaders that went there. He said that part of the reason he planted the grass was so that he could run his crusher equiptment in the pit to make finer grades of gravel for paving without her complaining about dust.
He gave her one catch though, he told her that if she complained one more time about anything involving that pit that he would sell the entire 57 acres to the off road groups for 1 dollar (around here land has to be technically sold, you can't give it away. SO in the governments mind, selling it for a dollar is fair game)with the sole condition that they had to turn it into a motocross track and have people at it whenever possible (to annoy her, since he did everything in his power to make her happy and she still wouldn't shut up)
So now we have two motocross tracks in within 10 miles of me, and both are awsome, although the new one doesn't have any championship races, the track is well maintained and is just as good as the one on the national circut.
Moral of the story? Noise pisses pff old whiny ladies who don't know when to give up. So basicly, even though this story workes out grat in the end, most don't, so shopping for the loudest pipe with no perticular reasoning, really is a foolish thing to do.
Posted August 23, 2004 - 10:10 PM
/quad she saw down there complaining that they were loud and were making dust fly at her house and it was diturbing her
With your own words you prove my point. Thank you.
Posted August 24, 2004 - 06:18 AM
I do not understand why you are stuck here on the sound issue. Everyone can see it but you, (Not a slam at all) a observation, I have had this dialog with you before, you are stuck on the 101 no enforcement, the BRC and sound not being the # 1 issue. I am convinced no one, will in anyway influence your position. As I said, I do not understand why you are stuck here.
Yes the 101 was never legitimately enforced, Edog it doesn't matter any more that was yesterday, as in every passing day mistakes are made.
Now we have 96db and the fight to keep it is at hand (That My Friend is Reality) We need to force the enforcement, not just by policing ourselves, but demanding from the industry to start producing these bikes and after market companies to produce SOUND LEGAL PIPES. Force the AMA to adopt this National and enforce it. Not doing these gives the greens the advantage to say See they are breaking the law, they are not abiding to the rules. Stop living in 101 land and step up to the 96db plate and force the pitchers to pitch to you. I understand you reasoning Edog, I do, but its over the 101 days are simply over, we lost that battle because we all were caught with our pants down. We were lazy, we were not prepared, we were not willing to engage.
Your stand against the BRC is head scratching as well. I have been privy to your debates with Bill Dart, honestly I believe there is much more to your resistance to the BRC then Sound. This is not BRC #1 objective as you seem to think. Again Edog, you have made your points and done it well, Phatt has made some great points as with everyone including yourself, but as Phatt pointed out with each point comes a new argument from you. (Again Not a Slam Just an observation) I am not saying you need to concede, I am saying you need to look at this whole post and read it all over again, it is clear My Friend and others see it as well.
Less Sound does not = More Ground This we agree, I say Less Sound = Less for the greens to use BUT (Ahh the proverbial BUT) We need to dig in make darn sure the AMA, Local Tracks, Local Rangers/OHV, OEM and our Big 4 manufactures start stepping up and enforcing / policing themselves to keep this 96db at 96db.
Edog it is not about what was, it is about what is coming and if we do not hold ourselves accountable then we loose again.
Posted August 24, 2004 - 12:28 PM
do not understand why you are stuck here on the sound issue
John for the same reason you are, enough said.
you are stuck on the 101 no enforcement
The history of an issue is important to know why you are where you are with it. It's only historical reference. I don't believe for a second we will ever get back there but it's important to know to see where we are going.
am convinced no one, will in anyway influence your position
John the same can be said for your position.
Everyone can see it but you,
John I have talked to many that see things the same as me. Soon as someone makes a stand on sound like I do they are attacked called names, belittled ect. This just makes people keep it to them selves.
Your stand against the BRC is head scratching as well
John I have not stated in this thread my oposition to the BRC but now you have. My oposition stems from Bill Darts comments, first the "less sound =More ground" then his stance that no one needs the power these bikes put out, and then more recently his giving me 3 examples of sound closure issues, all of which did not turn out to be as he represented them. Then thier continued insisting that sound is the #1 issue all the while we are loosing riding areas right and left to other causes. I still say that they do lots of good work and I have not mentioned them in a negative light in months. I also scratch my head with the blind following some have of this org when you see my posted reasons on of the sound issue.
Edog it is not about what was, it is about what is coming and if we do not hold ourselves accountable then we loose again
What it is "about" is a well informed body of off roaders. This includes where we have came from, where we are going, and central to my arguments, what we can accomplish with our actions. Misrepresenting what can be accomplished will hurt our cause in the end.
As far as my arguing when new points are brought up, thats what happens in a debate. The sound issue is complicated. I don't post all of my thoughts on the issue in a single post but as they are brought up I will respond. Debate on the direction of movements goes on in every one. The greenies have had huge power struggles in the last year within. Don't think for a minute they are all united on thier mission.
Posted August 24, 2004 - 12:55 PM
I am not stuck on anything I see the global issues we face, noise being one of them, erosion another, expansion another, ignorance another so on and so on.
The point Phatt made as well as I proves that it is simply an argument of 101 past. Sorry Rex but this is where you and I are at odds and is futile to explain to you any further. Time and Time again, every one that has responded to you understands, sees and agrees with your points, but also agree you are stuck in what was "101 Land"
Understanding the past (As I said In my Last Point) and making darn sure it is not repeated you must have missed. I thought I made it very clear. Your stand against Bill Dart / BRC is in defiance and that alone, your argument with BRC is simply invalid and in my point of view miss leading the community of riders. I am not going to explain this at all, its my opinion and simply do not want to go any more rounds about this Rex.
Your beating this sound closure drum, and yet you also say educate the community, well fine that is great, educate those who think that sound is closing lands, However you are so technical in your wanting proof you are missing the simple fact that SOUND is a problem and has closed/restricted race ways, and riding areas due to many reasons. Human encroachment, time of day so on. Educate the community of the realities of what this is all about
Stop beating this 101 item down its over man we lost that one
and the less sound more ground issue give me a break man please, you beat that horse till it aint no more. LOOK at the Global Picture. It isn't just Dirt bikes, its snow mobiles, Street bikes, ATV Lawn Mowers, Leave Blowers its even cars and concerts You are looking at the point of the needle Rex for the problem (ITS THE WHOLE NEEDLE)
Posted August 24, 2004 - 01:40 PM
as I proves that it is simply an argument of 101 past
John your the one that keeps bringing up the 101 now. I said it simply that its historical to know why we lost it. I have said it very clearly, we are never going to get it back, what part of that isn't clear???? How we lost it is important and you have said that your self. I have never argued that I want 101 back only that the way we lost it was wrong. I don't understand why you continue to bring it up
Your stand against Bill Dart / BRC is in defiance and that alone, your argument with BRC is simply invalid and in my point of view miss leading the community of riders
John this is your opinion, again I didn't bring the BRC into this and now you want to argue about them. Why are you pulling these things out???? Yes I believe the BRC misled and misleads the community on thier stance on noise. I never brought that up till you did. Are you looking to want to debate this or what?
However you are so technical in your wanting proof you are missing the simple fact that SOUND is a problem and has closed/restricted race ways
Who is misleading who? John it has closed 1 raceway, Pomona. There may be some restrictions but thats not what started this debate, you again are bringing in a new item. Looking for more of a fight?
The reason I ask for these proofs of closure is to prove the point that sound is not closing areas. It's part of the problem. Again you seem to think I don't recognize this. John read carefully that I understand that sound is a problem. Look through this thread alone about all the "hearsay" closures and all but one brought up, when looked into are closed for other reasons.
Your beating this sound closure drum
Here is one of the biggest falsehoods of all. I don't beat the closure drum. Follow me on this, I respond to someone else beating it. Like your beating it now. My entry into this thread was by someone else beating it, my continued participation in this thread is by someone else beating the closure drum. If you understand anything that I have posted understand this please. You want me to never make another post on sound? Simple plan, no one say it's closing areas, you will never hear this issue from me again. Pretty simple.
and the less sound more ground issue give me a break man please,
John again this is a slogan I would love to never hear again. Do you think I invented it?? Am I the one that says it over and over in the media? Please give me the break here John.
LOOK at the Global Picture
John this is term you have used over and over in our debates but I don't think you fully understand it either. The whole picture, what is really closing areas, what is the proper place for noise on the issues list and most important of all what are we accomplishing with it. I would dearly love to get into this debate, WHAT ARE WE ACCOMPLISHING WITH IT ????????
Now you say we shoud stop fighting about this stuff but you continue to fight, what gives. Or by stop fighting do you mean I should accept your way of thinking and drink the company koolaid (Jonestown reference) ?
Posted August 24, 2004 - 09:23 PM
Posted August 24, 2004 - 09:35 PM
I forgot to add... since you will without a doubt reply to this in great length. Perhaps you can give me a tip on how to stop my 450 from popping on decel. It is a bad seal from header pipe to slip on WBE2 exhaust. Maybe some heat tape? Would that work?? You seem like you have some time on your hands, or a very fast typer. Can research this for me???
Thanks in advance
Snake pit oct 30th by The Anvil
Yamaha YZ450F 2017 by Chris.GVS
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Thinking about Yamaha 250... by Arctic Pride