Need to find the loudest PIPE!

[endurodog]

You want proof, come to the meeting yourslef. Here are the dates, directions and even a map. See you there!

You want to prove it provide some documentation. If ya got it, show it.

Your directions are incomplete from where I would be traveling from.

Wow is my question that tough?? Is my enGlishe that bad. If there is some part of the following question that is unclear please let me know so I can explain it.

Can you show proof of a closure due to noise?????

Thats the simple question and no one here has yet.

[OldenPhatt]

I think we need a little perspective here. This thread started with a request to find the loudest pipe available, and oh yeah, power would be nice too. This is the attitude that got everybody so worked up. Eurodog, you seem to be stuck on the idea that unless somebody can come up with an instance of an off-road riding area being closed specifically, and only, because of complaints about noise, no one should be able to claim that nosie is an issue in land closures and this is patenetly absurd. Keep in mind that 101db is twice as loud as 95db and will travel four times as far (6db difference is equal to four times the power). In other words, a 101db bike is twice as loud as a 95db bike and the sound from it will travel four times as far. Tell me with a straight face that you don't think a 95db bike will cause less trouble for dirt bikers than a 101db bike.

The reason this has become such a big issue all of the sudden is the explosion of four-strokes, which are MUCH louder than two-strokes. People who were barely hearing the two-strokes blasting around nearby riding areas now have thumper background music for their BBQs and Aunt Hilda is having to crank up her hearing aid.

Ultimately, this debate will be settled largely by regulation and the manufacturers. As more and more states institute noise tests and maximum level regualtions, more and more riders will demand high performance, low volume exhaust systems and more and more manufactuers will produce them to fill the demand. It's just too bad that the dirt biking community has not been able to regulate itself.

When that happens, Eurodog, you will be having great days, climbing monster hills on your sub-96db scoot, so why not start now?

[Ga426owner]

Some of you are way to serious.........this post was a joke. ?

[OldBrokeBikeless]

There is a very well known track in California that does not allow YZ for strokes at all because of noise (and thats stock! somehow I don't see a CRF being a whole lot quieter.)

It doesn't have to be loud to go fast.

Don't know if you're talking about Pomona, but they were only allowed to open because they enforced a sound limit. Stock YZF's could not pass the decibel test.

Guess what? They were closed down by the City Council due to the noise complaints of neighbors.

[OldBrokeBikeless]

Here's the Motocross Action article:

Write, email, fax or call Pomona City Hall today!

Fairplex received a letter from Douglas Dunlap, the City Manager of Pomona, asking Fairplex to cease motocross after January 11, 2004. The city was getting complaints from some neighbors about the noise from the motorcycles. During the day the noise was barley audible but at night, when the ambient noise levels went down, the noise was unbearable. Fairplex Motocross has proposed that we reduce our hours to Thursdays 11:00 am to 7:00 pm and weekends 10:30 am to 6:00 pm until a screen is placed around the southern end of the track that would negate the sound.

Fairplex Motocross can reopen if Mr. Dunlap, who takes direction from the mayor and the city council, sends a letter to Fairplex outlining the conditions of reopening. Address your letters to; Honorable Mayor and Members of the City Council

Fairplex motocross has also proposed programs that would greatly benefit the community such as Pomona Riders and fund raisers for local service clubs.

City Hall - 2nd Floor, 505 S. Garey Ave. Pomona, CA 91766 Phone: 909-620-2051 Fax: 909-620-3707 If you cannot get through the above phone number, try 909-620-2073, #, Torres#, 3, #

[endurodog]

Eurodog, you seem to be stuck on the idea that unless somebody can come up with an instance of an off-road riding area being closed specifically, and only, because of complaints about noise, no one should be able to claim that nosie is an issue in land closures and this is patenetly absurd

Then you missed the point. The statement was made that loud bikes are closing riding areas. This isn't true thats what I was addressing.

Further I have said that noise is an issue, it just needs to be put in it's proper place.

I would love if you would go back and read my post on this or ask. To say that I believe one way when I have posted to the contray is very rude ?

The reason this has become such a big issue all of the sudden is the explosion of four-strokes

To be correct this has been an issue long before the 4 stroke revolution. The slogan "Less sound= More ground" is from the 70's. Noise has been an issue since the 70's cause it's save da ton of areas. NOTTTTT.

Keep in mind that 101db is twice as loud as 95db and will travel four times as far (6db difference is equal to four times the power

Ok so the limit in California has been dropped to 96 from 101 and 101 was not enforced, 96 is. So with that in mind the amount of sound these bikes make that is heard by people has been reduced by way more than the 4 times you state. How many fewer complaints are generated? How many areas have been reopened/saved??

When that happens, Eurodog, you will be having great days, climbing monster hills on your sub-96db scoot

You really don't read what I post do you. slow down (if you have even read this far) look back on my post. I have a sub 96 DB scoot, as I have stated I have an FMF Q on my bike. The difference between you and I on this matter is understanding what will be accomplished because of it.

[endurodog]

The city was getting complaints from some neighbors about the noise from the motorcycles. During the day the noise was barley audible but at night, when the ambient noise levels went down, the noise was unbearable

Looks like we have a winner!!!! Oldbrokebikeless looks to have found 1 area out of thousands that sounds like it was closed because of sound. Thank you sir for reading the question and responding.

I went and looked up the stuff on this track. It appears no compromise or lowering of the DB limit was going to keep the track open, the limit was all ready at 98DB. It sounds like this track was doomed from the day it was built by the neighbors.

Hopefully I accepted this information with a little more maturity than some others have responded in kind.

So now you can all point to one track, a single track, to say that this justifies your position.

[randyWRF]

Some of you are way to serious.........this post was a joke.

No man, only ONE of them posting here is. ?

Some people just don't get it.

[endurodog]

No man, only ONE of them posting here is.

Some people just don't get it.

Thank for finaly having a moment of self discovery ?

[MXKyle]

http://consensus.fsu.edu/forest/Ocala1.html

http://www.starbanner.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031125/NEWS/211250330/1001/BUSINESS

http://atvflorida.com/atvnews-091903.shtml

http://forests.org/archive/america/nwsatv55.htm

We have had this argument before I think. Here are 4 links about how noise lost an entire national forest to night use for motorcycles and is limiting the day use.

"In drafting the final regulation, they cited longtime complaints about noise by residents and visitors in the forests." -From the Ocala Star-

One is a link to the ongoing battle for land use in said national forest. Check the list of criteria for decision making. Noise is one of the prime concerns. More noise meant less riding area. The area I can legally use is now 1/10 what it was five years ago because of noise. As always all of us suffer because of a few short sighted abusers.

--KT--

[endurodog]

Kyle I have read the articles that you posted and agree that noise is a issue with these restriction it's not the whole picture. If your bike is has license you can be as loud as you want according to this since lic. bikes are still allowed. Also there are other issues involved as quoted below from the links you provided

During the Access Designation public meetings, four environmental groups left the table and withdrew from the process altogether. Many members of these groups would like to see all national forests set aside for their version of conservation, including an end to many forest management practices

Or

"Vehicles can do damage. We try to be responsible trail-users,"

Everetts said

This is perfect evidence of exactly what I have been saying that noise is an issue but its not getting areas shut down.

We have a great example of an area (singular) being shut down because of noise, and noise alone in the Pomona track but again that is 1 track.

The bottom line is we continue to loose millions of acres of access to other concerns, we need to put some effort in to the noise concern but what we need to do is fight the greenies and put the majority of our effort into the things that really close areas and noise isn't it.

Riding yesterday I was looking at the ATV tracks burned into a hillside in a closed area, and through a wetlands area. My riding partners and I were fuming and all agreeed that would get this area shut lots faster than any noise concern.

Lets make sure our fight is directed where it needs to be!

[beezer]

Englishtown (Raceway Park) is having lots of problems with nieghbors. Raceway Park has been there since the early 60's. People moved next to a drag strip and now complain about the noise.

I think eventually they will succed and the track will get shut down.

[endurodog]

Englishtown (Raceway Park) is having lots of problems with nieghbors. Raceway Park has been there since the early 60's.

This is common with lots of areas accross the country. It's urban encrouchment and we will loose those areas and tracks. Just as horse arenas have been lost, open space for kids, ect, ect. It's just that noise is one concern, not the only one either and in all but the Pomona track that I have seen it's not what gets them closed.

Like in the Pomona track, when it gets to that point no amount of noise reduction would have saved that track. They had very restrictive noise policy in place even banning some makes of bikes.

So what is being accomplished with reduced noise? There are some things yes, but we need to be realistic about what we accomplish with reduced noise. And to say that noise is closing areas I again state is not true or the whole story.

[John_Lorenz]

Have you all sat back and re read this entire post?

If not why not do it and validate exactly what the two or three common denominators are here.

Edog, I understand again what it is what you are stating and why. I agree with you that people do not UNDERSTAND the sound issue. I understand that you are trying to validate and help others understand that very few places have actually been closed due to sound.

Making sound the #1 battle cry is a misnomer, it is a fact sound is an issue, is it the number one issue. That depends on where you are at in the Nation and what you are facing. Some areas it is, others it is not. In every area though it is on the list, I DONT CARE HOW FAR DOWN OR UP ON THE LIST IT IS

IT IS ONE OF MANY ISSUES WE FACE.

Ya know now I understand why people get so upset with my pig headed firm stand on issues. I applaud you all especially Edog for the work he has done. ?

We disagree on some things but one thing we agree on and we all should and stop this pissing match about what issue is #1

WE HAVE A WAR GOING ON and the enemy is great at dividing the issues. Sound one area, erosion another, access in another, Look at Yellowstone for crap sake, geez its all the above. Sound is one of the major issues in Yellow stone. They have restricted access to so many snow mobiles allowed in per day. At one point snowmobiles where banned for a short time.

WE NEED TO BE ADVOCATES for our sport PERIOD. I agree with Edog on the point of what level is Good, That has to be drawn in deep and enforced. Not just by us or mandated by Government, but the Very industry we buy our Bikes from. How can KTM, Berg, Gas Gas, VOR and the other Euro Models bring Sound, EPA standard bikes into America and the big 4 can not?

It pisses me off to see dim wits at Hollister Hills with garbage bikes and blown out cans while the rest of us try our best to be legal. It frustrates the hell out of the Rangers, makes their job worse. 101db is ridicules in todays environment, 96db is and should be the National Standard. In Euro its 88 or 92 I believe.

It is COMMON SENSE if you are a responcible rider to now try and be as quiet as legally possible. On the other hand Its equally Common sense to Pack out what you Pack in, Be stewards of the land we have, take care of it, be polite out on the trail and in camps

You want to win the public, then be nice to them. Educate them, Be an Advocate to the sport.

[OldenPhatt]

So what is being accomplished with reduced noise? There are some things yes, but we need to be realistic about what we accomplish with reduced noise. And to say that noise is closing areas I again state is not true or the whole story.

If you agree that reducing noise is good overall for dirt bikers and you yourself ride, I assume happily, a quiet bike, what is it exactly that you're arguing about? What we do matters more than what we say. If you believe that quiet bikes are good for our sport, what purpose does it serve to quantify that good?

I believe that all of us should be ahearing the the noise regulations that do exist and give serious thought to noise levels when purchasing bikes and/or exhausts systems. That is what I feel we should be doing. Do you agree with this?

[endurodog]

it is a fact sound is an issue,

That we agree on

Sound is one of the major issues in Yellow stone

Yes it is a major part of the Yellowstone issue but a bigger issue as I read it is the pollution created by 2 strokes. Now that 4 stroke technology is creeping in they are trying to curb that but it is, in my opinion, still the pollution issue.

In every area though it is on the list

John I have to disagre with you on this and point to some examples.

Glamis closure- Vetch Milk weed only

Souther Cali- Desert Tortis <sp sorry>

There are more but these alone encompass much more land than the Pamona track alone by 100 times at least.

You want to win the public, then be nice to them. Educate them, Be an Advocate to the sport.

Absolutly 100% agreed ?

[endurodog]

it is a fact sound is an issue,

That we agree on

Sound is one of the major issues in Yellow stone

Yes it is a major part of the Yellowstone issue but a bigger issue as I read it is the pollution created by 2 strokes. Now that 4 stroke technology is creeping in they are trying to curb that but it is, in my opinion, still the pollution issue. Thats a major part of the number restriction.

In every area though it is on the list

John I have to disagre with you on this and point to some examples.

Glamis closure- Vetch Milk weed only

Souther Cali- Desert Tortis <sp sorry>

There are more but these alone encompass much more land than the Pamona track alone by 100 times at least.

You want to win the public, then be nice to them. Educate them, Be an Advocate to the sport.

Absolutly 100% agreed ?

[endurodog]

If you agree that reducing noise is good overall for dirt bikers and you yourself ride, I assume happily, a quiet bike, what is it exactly that you're arguing about?

This gets to the exact root of my debating this issue. Thanks for asking.

I believe we have limited resources to fight all of our battles, money, time, effort. If we are directing this at a minor issue, sound, then it takes away resources from the primary fight. Thats why I like to point to examples of real closures. We have lost lots of land in the last year to bunch of issues not related to sound, or sound not being the primary argument. Many more court cases are being fought on these issues again with sound being a very small part of the issue.

In addition I believe that if we rally all riders behind the sound issue then we continue to loose areas then the riders that have fought hard on the sound issue will become disinterested in the fight and we will loose them as supporters. This is just what happened with the NRA in the 90's. Membership dropped off, now they are regaining lost members but it's been a long road. The NRA lost man power, money, and clout in the political arena.

I believe that all of us should be ahearing the the noise regulations that do exist and give serious thought to noise levels when purchasing bikes and/or exhausts systems. That is what I feel we should be doing. Do you agree with this?

Absolutly

[John_Lorenz]

I believe we have limited resources to fight all of our battles, money, time, effort. If we are directing this at a minor issue, sound, then it takes away resources from the primary fight.

Who is spending the resources making this the #1 issue?

Not the BRC, they are making it an issue with OEM's to get with the program, but you yourself know As per what Bill Dart has said, The resources that the BRC spends is for Legislation legal fights against special interest.

We have limited resources Edog, because people are in fighting our own groups and failing to support those groups that have taken it to the Government ?

[endurodog]

Who is spending the resources making this the #1 issue?

Not the BRC,

John the BRC has said over and over that sound is the #1 issue. They run sound checks, print articles, argue it on the internet. The expend time, money and energy to do this. They are the only org of the many that support our rights that feel this way.

We have limited resources Edog, because people are in fighting our own groups and failing to support those groups that have taken it to the Government

No we have limited resources the same as even the US government has limited resources. Those resources have to be used correctly or it's a waste. Thats why I choose to support the AMA, COHVCO, Colorado 500 legal defense fund. I believe these groups fight the correct fight with my money ?