XR650R/Stuck Carb Float/Overheating
Posted July 31, 2004 - 11:03 AM
Here is the strange part. When I noticed the overheating,(boiling sound and bubbling in overflow tank) at a rest stop, fluid is coming out the overflow tube under the bike. I assume that its coolant, it's not coolant, its gas. The float stuck open at the same time. No fall was involved! Bike is 6mo. old. So I shut off the gas and kick and kick until I get it to start with the gas off. Then cut the gas back on and it has not repeated the over flow of the float.
I got out ahead of my son riding faster to get more air over the radiator.(Another rider follows my son) No more overheating or stiking float.
Then I drop the bike in some sand and the flooded starting routine has to begin again.
The stock card has to go. Edelbrock must be purchased.I have already ordered a 1.8 radiator cap.
I had the newest bike on this ride and had all the problems. Riding slow I should have expected overheating. The sticking float has me baffled, but the stock carb will be replaced with a Edelbrock. I had been holding off on carb replacement because I don't drop the bike often. But I am now convinced that the stock carb is a P.O.S.
Posted July 31, 2004 - 04:10 PM
Posted August 01, 2004 - 04:37 AM
Posted August 01, 2004 - 04:38 AM
No steep inclines involved in the ride where the stock carb float started sticking.
I sure dont want to spend $395 for an Edelbrock, have to tune it and then start having problems with that carb.
Unless your racing wide open throttle, I would still set the float level so it shuts off the fuel sooner. I and my riding partner both have had problems with the stock carb until we did this. I also talked to a fellow who races for honda on the 650 and he is the one who originally told me to change the float level 2mm. I raised it 3mm cause I frequently ride steep mountain trails and 2mm was not quite enough. You have nothing to lose, it won't cost you anything.
Also remove the thermostat to help the bike run cooler. Unless you ride in very cold climate the thermostat is not necassary. I was riding on tight mountain trails trying out my new Rekluse autoclutch yesterday. First and second gear stuff. It was 90+ degrees out. My bike never overheated once. I have the 1.8 radiator cap also. In the winter I use the thermostat. It doesn't cost a thing to take it out. No gasket just remove and bolt back together.
When the stock carb is dialed in, I noticed more grunt on the low end than with my Edelbrock. But when I dump the bike the Edelbrock is sweet. Still if I can't resolve the issue I am having with the carb I may go back to stock.
Posted August 01, 2004 - 07:30 AM
I did too! I thought that was just because I'm having difficulty tuning my Edelbrock. Are you seeing any significant performance gain other then easier starting?
Posted August 01, 2004 - 11:14 AM
One thing I have noticed is that this bike took me a good year to get used to (from a 97 XR250R). It has its idiosynchracies (sp?) but now I'm used to it. The first six months, I wondered if I'd made the right decision (especially here in the woods!) Hang in there!!!
Posted August 01, 2004 - 01:33 PM
the carb is 10X better than that Keihin piece of trash.
If you are having problems with the Edelbrock it is your ability to adjust it--NOT the carb.
Hundreds of guys have them and love them-- 3-4 guys on here cant seem to adjust them and blame the carb and not themselves.
The carb is not the problem--it is the simplest carb to adjust on the planet. Litterally! No jets to mess with, no air screw, no removing the needle and changing the clip (and stripping the little screw in the process)-- self adjusting for altitude, nickle plated, pumper, Motion Pro cables, its just awesome.
It fixes the starting nightmares this bike has after flooding after crashes, stalling up hill, etc. It also solves the off idle response delay. It also solves the inherent inablility of the Keihin to perform outside a very narrow window (altitude, humidity, airfilter, aftermarket stuff).
If you find the stocker has more bottom response and you are writing to TT advising people that the stock Keihin is better on the bottom than a pumper edelbrock--well--you are grossly wrong, and when you learn more about carburetors you will regret ever posting such an erronious post. (gawd i wish i new how to spell!)
By definition pumper carbs are INHERENTLY MUCH better at off idle response. Thats why all the new jap 4 strokes come with pumper carbs. Our dinasour XR is one of the last (the last?) jap bike released WITHOUT a pumper carb!
The Edelbrock is super easy to adjust--far easier than say your front forks, and far far far far easier than a FCR or Mikuni.
Why are there so so so so many positive posts about the Edelbrock and 3-4 who say stuff like the stock Keihin has a better bottom response than the Edelbrock? Crazy. WRONG.
Its ok to be wrong. I have made 3-4 posts that i later realized where way off. You anti-edelbrockers are way off here--once you figure out how to dial in your Edelbrock you will see what the rest of us have found--the Edelbrock is 10X better.
Posted August 01, 2004 - 02:52 PM
I can't stand the flooding any more. Its really a stupid flaw in an otherwise sound design.
Posted August 01, 2004 - 04:42 PM
Mike, get a hold of yourself. What you call bashing is simply being honest about problems we are having with the carb. In my case it has little to do with dialing the carb in. I know how to do that. When the carb fuel shut off valve jams shut and will not allow fuel into the carb bowl all the adjusting in the world will not help. This is not an isolated incident. It has happened twice to me and I don't know what fixed it the first time. Also I just mentioned this problem in another thread and another Edelbrock owner confirmed that he too had this happen. Again, all the knowledge in the world about dialing in a carb is usless if it cant get any fuel into the bowl. My Edelbrock ran flawlessly for 4 months and then started acting up. No settings were changed.
So realize that no product is perfect. As good as the Edelbrock is there is two of us on this list who have run into this problem. If a census were possible of all Edelbrock owners I doubt that we two are isolated incidents.I guess 2 months ago I would pretty much have made the comments you made but not anymore since I am one of the victims.
Believe me I want my carb to function flawlessly like it did for 4 months. I have no reason to want to bash anyone. Should I lie and say my carb has never had a problem? Should I tell folks you can easily adjust a carb that won't let fuel in? Come on and lighten up and try to help us understand this.
I took the offending shut off valve out and it looked fine. I lubricated it and put it back into the seat which also looked fine. It worked for 1 hour and then locked shut again. For some reason yesterday it let me complete a 37 mile ride but did act up a little on the ride. I am going to install the new valve and seat Edelbrock mailed me but to be honest it looks exactly like the old one. They both look brand new.
And concerning the stock carb having a harder pulling bottom end. It did. But I was getting everything I wanted from the Edelbrock so that did not bother me at all. I enjoyed the fact that my Edelbrock could take a full throttle twist and just go no hesitation. Never the less I noticed that my stocker pulled harder once it did go. That is not a bash unless your a racer (which it looks like you are). I loved my Edelbrock it did everything I wanted. Not so now but I hope I get this thing ironed out soon.
Posted August 01, 2004 - 06:09 PM
The fuel overflowing the carb. I had this problem, and I don't know if it's the same thing as yours, but you might check it anyway, it's a cheaper fix than spending so much on a carb that you probably don't need for trail riding.
Remove the float bowl drain plug on the bottom of the carb and check for particles. On my bike, the cheap fuel petcock rubber seal broke apart and pieces of it plugged up the float needle valve. I cleaned the particles out, and replaced the petcock, problem solved. I keep an eye on it still, and keep sand and dirt away from the petcock valve, mine had gotten some dirt in it which ground small particles off of the rubber internal part, which became lodged in the float needle valve, causing the overflow.
Posted August 02, 2004 - 05:18 AM
I'm considering purchasing the Edlebrock carb for my 650R. I live in Arkansas, but will be headed to CO at the end of August. What is needed to adjust the QS for altitude of 6000 + ft.? I know I've read the answer on here but can't seem to find it now.
Posted August 02, 2004 - 09:50 AM
Old_Man, stupid, stupid, stupid question. You are sure it's the carb not the fuel petcock? Switching to reserve doesn't solve problem? Petcock not clogged? Sorry, had to ask.
Posted August 02, 2004 - 10:22 AM
The Edelbrock carb is inherently a great design and very well made and serviced and it solves some huge problems the stock carb has. That we all agree on. The Mikuni and the FCR are also great carbs but for off road IMHO the Edelbrock is far better as its a very different and simpler design and i will leave it at that...others feel the Mikuni/FCR options are better. There are a couple other aftermarket carbs for our bike that have come out recently--but i dont know anything about them.
Anyway here is some info regarding the Edelbrock--i hope it will help both new and old Edelbrock carb owners.
Frankly i dont think many racers would share this kind of info: i really dont think Team Honda or KTM or XR's Only or Baja Designs knows this level of detail regarding the Edelbrock...for sure Rob Barnum knows this and a lot more regarding the Edelbrock as he still consults to Edelbrock about it and helped develope it in the first place. He is the best source for info and help regarding this carb.
Tuning the Edelbrock-
1) Warm up engine. Turn off. Reach up under the tank, hold throttle wide open, turn the red knob on top of the carb. Left is leaner, right is richer. Go one click at a time. Start up the bike, accelerate the engine, ride it a bit once you have it where you think it should be--see how it runs. You want to be to the point it just pops once or twice when you are hard de-accelleration-as well as a nice clean idle, no black smoke, and very very very easy starting... Its very rare you will have to go more than 2-3 clicks leaner or richer than the stock setting the carb came with. Almost everyone will do fine with the stock setting. They are pre-callibrated for the BRP.
If you cant reach the knob, remove the seat, loosen the lower shroud bolts, loosen the tank to frame bolts and lift up on the rear of the tank for room.
Once the needle is dialed in: Do the small screw on the right of the carb--this is the pumper adjustment. It just adjusts the amount of fuel percolated into the carb when you first turn the throttle. Normal is 3 1/2 turns out from full in. Again most likely the stock setting is correct right out of the box.
Adjust in small increments--like 1/8th or 1/4th turns. You want a INSTANT crisp hit on the throttle down low. No hesitation, no bogging-just great off-idle response. You also want a bike that starts with one kick and no throttle. Once you have all three you have the pumper right where you want it.
Starting the bike:
With the Edelbrock you twist the throttle three times in rapid succession, on off- on off, on off. That litterally primes the bike--by pumping a small amount of fuel into it.
Then find TDC just like the regular starting proceedure. Go a bit past it like regular, and kick all the way thru.
18 months ago i first posted on here about Edelbrock issues (under another name...) I was in Baja and the bike just wouldnt run. Since then i have about 7-8k race miles and 22-25K or so desert miles on the Edelbrock--plus others in my rider group have the unit with many race and riding miles.
Heres what can go wrong with the Edelbrock
(i am sure there are other things out there as well)
1) After 10k the cable can fray-should be watched and replaced.
2) Bits of dirt, sand, rubber, petcock filter plastic, mexican gas debris, etc can get into the needle valve at the entrance of the fuel line to the carb, causing the needle valve to stick closed--and so starving the carb of fuel. If your carb suddenly has no fuel in the fuel cell--this is probably the culprit--its rare--but can happen. After 7-10K miles this valve can start to wear and develop a small ridge that can also contribue to sticking. Again its rare but can happen. Finally the Edelbrock doesnt like to be stored for long long periods of time with gas in the carb--dried gas leaves a varnish that can contribue to sticking as well.
3) The 'pellet' in the pumper transfer system can stick in the bottom of the transfer tube or stanchion--preventing any fuel to be pumped. This pellet sticks in two ways-one by contaminents getting in--like dried gasoline i.e. 'varnish' and two by wearing - (it pops up and down all day) - itself along the softer brass edges and eventually developing ridges at the bottom that contribute to sticking...
If you cant get the pumper to work-no adjustment changes anything--good chance the pellet sticking is the problem.
4) Again--dried gasoline is hell on any carb--on the Edelbrock it can also effect the mechanical lever that is externally found on the carb that actuates the pumping. This can stick--look for the problem if the bike has been stored for a long time--say 3+ months...or if you live by the beach--the salt corrosion can do something similar.
5) Again the dried gasoline is a [@#$%&*!] for all carbs. On the edelbrock it can cause the needle to stick--it can get very gummed up and nasty. If you can get the bike running it might clean itself out or better yet dissasmble the carb and clean with carb cleaner. Again this is only on bikes that have been sitting a long long time. No different than any other carb sitting a long long time.
6) The foam like material found at the bottom of some Edelbrocks is great for keeping the fuel from sloshing about, but it can lead to trapped dirt and sand grains,etc in the bottom ofo the fuel cell. Some remove this. I find it is good at keeping the dirt away--either way its worth inspecting once ever 5-7500 miles or more if you are in the third world using dirty fuel.
7) Riding thru salty areas like a beach or a salt flat can lead the nickle plated carb to loose its nickle plating. Its an aesthetic issue--wash off with clean water after riding in salty areas...
Finally- these are all issues i have had, but also stuff i have seen repeated on other bikes, and its also stuff i have talked to Rob Barnum about--he has confered. No daubt this is not a complete list of things to watch for on your Edelbrock.
For sure these are not common problems. For sure any other carb will have very similar problems and more. The Edelbrock is simpler--not mroe complicated in design and build than other carbs--so dont think its some fickle little race only part that ya have to have a manual with ya to fix. THATS NOT THE CASE. ITS THE OPPOSITE--the Edelbrock is easier to work on than the Keihin and much more bulletproof. Not to mention it works far better.
At $400 is it for everyone? NO. Is it perfect? No. Is it one of the best aftermarket additions to the BRP for everyone from Dakar Rally privateer to First Time Dirt biker? IMHO - Yes.
the best place to buy one is thru www.barnumspro.com
Posted August 02, 2004 - 09:04 PM
Old Man Time is honestly relating problems he is having and is getting smashed for it??? Let's cut the stupidity.
Old_Man, stupid, stupid, stupid question. You are sure it's the carb not the fuel petcock? Switching to reserve doesn't solve problem? Petcock not clogged? Sorry, had to ask.
Salty, that was the first thing I checked. Fuel poured out when the fuel petock was opened. I also attached a long fuel line to the carb and tried to blow the valve opened. All I accomplished was a red face. When I pulled the valve and seat I did not find any debree in it. I guess its time to pull the carb and check for debree in the bowl. The thing that makes this hard to diagnose is it is intermittant. You never know when it's going to do it.
Posted August 02, 2004 - 09:09 PM
Frogman, Im not trying to defend the stock carb against anything but if you don't vote Bush then sell your dirt bike cause the other side is for the green agenda. They want you off the trails. I myself wish there was another choice for President but between Kerry and Bush . Well thats a no brainer for a dirt biker.
Posted August 03, 2004 - 09:37 AM
What are we going to do about that?
I dont care about tax cuts, or what Maqtar Al-Sadr says about the US forces in Iraq. I dont care about drilling in the arctic. I dont care about affordable medicine for old people in Florida...
I am worried about Iran.
I think Bush is also worried about Iran. I think thats (hopefully) where the troops are going next.
I think Kerry is psychologically damaged by his Vietnam experience and has a kneejerk aversion to war. That is a good thing during times of peace. That is a bad thing when you have battles raging in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Hopefully Bush will finish off the job once and for all in the middle east so our children dont end up fighting this war all over again in 15 years after a Nuke goes off in a container landing in Long Beach or New Jersey.
Sadly i dont think Kerry grasps the historical nature of events going on right now. It is a pivotal moment when we can fix things once and for all, or just put on a feel good bandaid, pull out, feel good about it all, and then loose 10,000 americans in a nuke blast in 2012.
Do you really think 9-11 was the last hit? Do you really think its all Al-Qaida? The World Trade Center was bombed twice--once by AL Qaida, once by another, non-Al Qaida muslim extremist.
We have little choice but to bring back the draft, and go at it systematically all accross the middle east. We need the dogged determination that the Greatest Generation did for us 60 years ago.
Wake up liberals. You are right about Vietnam, Grenada, Panama. You are wrong about Gulf War One, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the future battles in Tehran and Damascus.
Look at the big picture, and ask yourself where all this is going if we dont fix it.
Its going nuclear Ka Boom in LA and NYC if we dont take over the middle east. Yeah i have been in war zones, yeah i have been throughout the middle east. Yeah its that simple. If we get nuked our economy will be so f-ed for so long you can forget about luxuries like dirt bikes and toy haulers...
Personally i just wish Bush wasnt such a [@#$%&*!]. Where is Winston Churchill when we need him?
.....hmmmmm a little off the subject here.....
yeah adjust the float bowl 1mm higher. That'll fix it!
Posted August 03, 2004 - 03:49 PM
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