Need Urgent Help, Please??? (NO LONGER URGENT)


14 replies to this topic
  • J_T

Posted June 18, 2004 - 01:38 PM

#1

Hey All, I am about to leave (in about a half 'n hour)for the weekend to go ride and to the lake...

BACKGROUND:
My bike has been sitting for a about 2 months but it ran fine when I parked it. I knew I needed to adjust my valves so I did that today while the bike was cold (w/out starting it since parking it) I adjusted Intake (carb side)to .006 (can't fit .008 so tight) and Exhaust (header side) to .008 (can't fit .010 so tight). I had to unhook the stator to get to the flywheel and tightened some loose bolts w/in the stator housing.

Installed new plug gapped to .040

I changed the oil and filter with 1.8-1.9 qts and changed the coolant to ~2 qt installed my Thermostat back and 1.1 radiator cap (wanted to see if it'd boil over with edelbrock carb).

No changes to my Edelbrock carb or air filter other than checking it was clean (the filter).

PROBLEM: Just put it all back together to load on trailer and started it up. It starts fine and idles fine but as soon as you give any throttle it just stalls as if push kill button, you can't even slowly get the RPMs up??? It'll idle for a while but no matter how long it won't throttle up???

Things checked: I have made sure no carb lines pinched, Stator connections solid, good spark, I have fuel.

Any ideas? Is a valve too tight? I have checked all wiring connections. I don't have a ton of tools at the lake so I need to know ideas to check so I can make sure to take the correct tools with me????

Sorry for the rush but I'm so frustrated I'm probably overlooking somethign simple.

Thanks in advance,

JT

  • Dual_Dog

Posted June 18, 2004 - 02:12 PM

#2

Sounds like a clogged main jet since it's bogging at throttle up. Clean out the float chamber, too. Is the air filter all cleaned up?

(Have to find) time to take the pumper out and clean it up.

  • heliosstudios

Posted June 18, 2004 - 09:51 PM

#3

Fuel sounds logical... here's a quick way to test for carb problems. Take a clean rag and hold it over the intake, acting like the filter. Start the bike and spray some starting fluid on the rag, then try the throttle (the ether richens the fuel mixture just a teeny-weeny bit...) :thumbsup: Of course, use common sense.

Also don't overlook that blasted spark plug boot. I've seen those also cause problems like this. The valves should have nothing to do with it though, unless they are WAY out of adjustment. You're sure they were adjusted at TDC on the compression stroke? No decompressor? Have fun at the lake.

  • PowerStroke

Posted June 19, 2004 - 02:03 AM

#4

Had same problem a few years ago and it was the plug. change .. I couldn't believe it. It would idle all day and sputter a slow death with throttle. Mainjet isn't in effect at this point. Also maybe choke is on and a vacuum line is off? Will it idle with choke off assuming it would before??

Over and out.. JR

  • smashinz2002

Posted June 20, 2004 - 05:59 PM

#5

Sounds like a clogged main jet dude. Has your petcock internal rubber material started to fall apart yet? Mine did, and the particles clogged not only the main jet, but also the float needle valve, causing it to overflow AND not run when you gas it. Lots of tiny pieces of rubber were in there from the cheap petcock o-ring thing.

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted June 20, 2004 - 06:14 PM

#6

Well first of all you have no main jet with an Edelbrock. Even if the auto decompressor was engaged when you adjusted the valves it would start and rev up just fine, only it would clack like crazy. So thats not it.

Could it be that the float is stuck in the carb? Giving it an extreme over rich condition? If this were the case when you turned the fuel on and put the bike on its side stand it would overflow fuel to the ground.

The other possibility is your not getting enough fuel consistantly. This condition would kill the bike even at an idle cause it would likely run the bowl out of fuel. I have found my XR650R when left to sit for very long builds up water in the fuel tank (this only happens since I started running edelbrock carb) and I have to use Heet fuel dryer to keep the bike running and the fuel flowing.

I think I would shoot for the overly rich situation first. Pull the plug. It will be very wet or bone dry. That will give you an indication as to what you need to do.

Also pull the fuel line and hold a container under it. Does the fuel flow fast and furious or barely trickle?

  • J_T

Posted June 21, 2004 - 05:05 AM

#7

Hey All I still haven't figured it out but I'll fill ya'll in on what I have tried and thoughts I have. Thanks for all the replies...I didn't have internet there but since its still not running (above idle) all suggestions are still appreciated!! All of these Ideas are excellent!

To describe a little more accurately what its doing now that I have expermented more. IT starts and idles perfect. you barely give it any throttle, (just enough to raise about 500 RPM, a guess but very very very little) then it dies immediatly, as if kill switch pressed, not sputters or chokes but immediatly dies. IT also does it if you turn the idle knob to this RPM, (judging by ear its always the same RPM) then it just quits. If you give it a quit burst of throttle, it does the same as if you very slowly increased idle speed.

Things I have checked:

Air filter: It does the same thing with, without and freshly cleaned airfilter? NO CHANGE

Edelbrock carb: I removed it cleaned throughly, and found it was clean and gave strong pump and all hoses free and clear. NO CHANGE

Old Gas: I replaced it with fresh gas after cleaning the carb. NO CHANGE

Tried Old Plug: I took out the new plug I just installed and put in the old one I knew worked and still NO CHANGE

Stator and pickup: I removed the stator cover that I had to remove to adjust the valves so see if maybe something was loose or a wire rubbed or frayed or arching or I inadvertently pulled something loose but all was taped securly and solid so NO CHANGE to condition

I readjusted the valves twice: and actually loosened them from the first adjustment to make sure they weren't too tight, then tried it with no change. IT sounds good while idleing and they meet specs in manual so NO CHANGE.

I thought maybe my kill switch had a freak stick to it or something odd that needed more Juice to make it quit so I unhooked it and started it and it idled fine (as always) but died above idle as if killed.

The wires were in a pinch where they run by seat near top of rear shock and where they are in that retainer with the throttle cables rubbing on them so I untaped them to see if anything broken or frayed or grounding out (can it do that on aluminum?) so I started the bike and let it idle and started moving the untaped wires around and tried to get them in a position to short out but no luck. nothing quit it except a very slight raise in RPM. so NO CHANGE

I unhooked case breather hoses in case something may be clogged and cause a vaccume but they were free and clear and did the same when they were unhooked? so NO CHANGE

I checked all electrical connections and cleaned them in case but none were dirty and all were solid and if you unhooked any control box (not lights) while it was idling it'd kill it so that tells me that what ever was hooked up before I unhooked it was needed to run. so NO CHANGE

There was a tear in the yellow boot cover of the spark plug boot but it ended up being just in the outer cover and the plug wire was good w/out problem. but I taped it up anyway with NO CHANGE.

MORE THOUGHTS: This I did all while at the lake with what tools I had but didn't have a manual. I am going to search the trouble shooting in it to see if I can find any more ideas. But b/c the way it sounds and how finicky it is with RPM change I am thinking the CDI box??? Could that do this? If the regulator was bad it wouldn't run at all right or my lights wouldn't be working either? The last thing electrical would be the Coil? I am not sure how to check that either but I'm going to look in the manual to see if there is help.

As you can see I have tried much of the normal stuff so any suggestions you have they can never be too off the wall?

The only things I haven't done that was changed was I reinstalled thermostat and fresh coolant and stock 1.1 Rad cap, and changed oil and filter, Both at required fluid levels?

Ugh. Thank Ya'll for all teh great suggestions. I'll keep you updated on what comes of this!

Thanks
JT

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  • JetPilot

Posted June 21, 2004 - 06:11 AM

#8

Only being able to idle around the lake all weekend, that really sucks dude... :devil: Im thinking maybe an electrical problem, maybe your control unit, your coil, or even your spark plug wire. I would do this, get it idiling and stick your tongue on the sparkplug and see if its cutting out. Ok, dont really do that hahaha, but get a Timing light, and just watch it flash each time the plug fires, gas it enough for it to die, and see if it keeps flashing as it dies. If it stops flashing, and dies, then it means you lost your spark....

Its very possible something electric has gone bad, and can stand a little big of voltage, but as soon as RPM increases and it starts to do some work, it cant handle it and dies. This is just a guess, :thumbsup: but im thinking this because it seems very consistant, to consistant to be fuel, and the way it idles perfectly and then dies immidately with no sputtering or anythning. Good Luck Dude :awww:

  • qadsan

Posted June 21, 2004 - 08:17 AM

#9

Check your manetic pickup to make sure its tight and not damaged. Did you remove it when removing the stator? Maybe it's just a hair out of alignment.

  • J_T

Posted June 21, 2004 - 09:40 AM

#10

This is a very good idea...when i removed the cover to set flywheel to TDC One of the bolts for the pickup was out and lodged under it out of harms way but the other was still secure and b/c the lips of the base of it sit down into the bolt holes It didn't have any play for movement. I just assumed it was still solid but if it only takes a "Hair" off then I guess that could be a possibility...I didn't see any means of adjusting it so I just secured it secured it and made sure it was clean. I didn't hear any rubbing and it didn't show any signs of comming in contact with the flywheel but that was something I checked b/c I sounds like an ignition issue like magneto (is that what its called?) like the magneto quits picking up above a certain RPM. I assume this means it could be very slightly bent away from the flywheel? It has been hotter since I last rode it in April maybe the metal expanded enough (also the bolt being out) to set it off.?

  • Old_Man_Time

Posted June 21, 2004 - 11:38 AM

#11

If it is electrical which does sound possible I doubt the missing bolt allowed any movement for the very reasons you gave. Like you said there was no play. But it may be possible that the loose bolt did short the system enough to weaken it and then moved out of harms way as you found it.
The thing with electrical that I have found is you need to try known good parts one at a time until you find the culprit. A good honda shop will often do this for their customers if they are having difficulty diagnosing it.

Do you have any friends with a good running bike who wouldn't mind helping you here?

  • heliosstudios

Posted June 21, 2004 - 03:08 PM

#12

Have you tried another plug boot? The problem sounds like one of three things: Plug boot, ignition coil, or CDI box - nothing else sounds logical. Go unscrew the plug boot off the lawnmower and see if that works, I've heard of stranger things happening. :thumbsup: You don't want to replace CDI boxes or coils though... very expensive.

  • jws

Posted June 21, 2004 - 03:20 PM

#13

maybe the pump?? squirting to much fuel?? - dont know if that would do it but worth a check..........

  • J_T

Posted June 21, 2004 - 06:00 PM

#14

I have to admit...I did have to take it to a dealer here in Memphis today b/c I have exhausted what I can do on my own. I tried looking at the manual to see about testing the ignition and it needed a peak voltage monitor and this and that that I don't have.

I was really disapointed taking it to them (I have never delt with them before other than buying a few odd parts in the past) but the guys at the desk didn't listen to what I tried to tell them I already checked and made a large note that "Customer adjusted own valves" on the ticket. I am 25, 6'0" and 165lbs on a good day so I probably look like a kid with small-dick syndrome bringing that 650R in. (I can't help it that it takes more to get my adrenaline going!) They weren't the technitions at the desk and wouldn't let me even talk to a tech or have one come listen while I started it up. I wanted to expalain to them the background and such! They charge a rate for diagnosing and it is the labor fee for the time it takes them so I wanted to save me some bucks and keep them from checking things I have checked and leave those to the last if needed! I do have faith in the techs though b/c back when contemplating rebuilding an old XR250 they would give me free advise and let me use some of their "special" tools if I brought the stuff to them. (but that was 4 years ago and I didn't see any of those guys there now). I guess I'm just a peon in their eyes. (somebody kick me if I make someone else feel like their a peon or ignorant. A good butt kicking is non discrimant, and your never too old, smart, rich, for a good butt kicking?)

Ok so back to OMT's post...I don't have access to those sort of parts which is why I thought it best to take it in. If I decided to buy the parts to start checking them myself then I'd be more in the hole at the end (but I'd have extras! :devil: )

Oh another thing about the dealer. Once I told them I had an Edelbrock carb, (they already made up their minds it was fuel related problem b/c they wouldn't hear it run) they said the would still have to charge me a diagnostic fee and they can't work on it b/c its not a stock part! So I have a feeling they are going to jump to that conclusion and send it back and I'll have to dig up the stock carb and take it back and prove that its not the carb. B/c I know there isnt' anything wrong with the edelbrock carb, its set the same as the day I bought it and I cleaned it out and found it all clean and functioning. I'm making some assumptions about the dealer b/c of some negative first impressions but I'll be sure to let ya'll know if they pull through and do a good job!

Tues (22nd) We are driving to 900 miles to MD to look for a place to live the next few months and will be back before weekend. But we'll look to see if there is a place where I can keep the BRP so I know if its worth putting a hitch on my 2 dr 4cly Accord to take it up there to start July 5th!!

Anyone have a guest-house/apartment/condo, for rent in the Baltimore area for a married couple, both students, that will pay rent and do handywork/yardwork to offset cost? :thumbsup:

Thanks for keeping up

JT


PS, I still wish I would have tried the starter fluid idea. I normally would and I bought some over the weekend but in my frustrations I forgot but that certainly would have narrowed down fuel related problems for sure!

  • J_T

Posted June 28, 2004 - 07:42 PM

#15

Ugh! What a couple of Weeks! Its fixed and running! Also our internet connection was repaired today as well so I couldn't update ya'll Last Fri (25th) when I figured it out!

First off the dealer called me last Wed and told me that with my Edelbrock carb that it'd take too much time to diagnose it working around a non-stock part that they'd just be nice and let me take it to someone else instead of spending the money on hours for them to diagnose the problem, So no charge to me for taking it to them. (Sounded honorble on the phone but after picking it up and the situation I BELIEVE THIS TO BE AN ENTIRELY BUNK EXCUSE) When I picked it up Fri They had a Dynomax trailer with a dyno machine they were having a big poker run that next day and I guess a big gathering. So as I was rolling my bike out I stopped a fellow and asked if he was a mechanic there and he said yes and I asked him what he recommended to do with my bike and that they told me they "Couldn't fix it" and his eyes lit up! He Said "Really? let me find out who worked on it..." and couldn't find any of the techs that did. and I told him that the fellow at the desk told me it was carb problem but wouldn't listen to it and he said that he wanted to hear it so I started it and after he asked what I had already checked I fired it up and it idled perfect and he said thats not fuel problem...its electrical.

From a few things the mechanic said about how business was run there I have concluded why they didn't bother with it... that they probably just wanted to get it out of the way for the big weekend of bikes that were comming in for the weekend events or they didn't have the electrical parts to swap to test on hand and would have to order parts that may not be it and because there weren't other XR650Rs that needed parts from them so they'd have to eat cost of parts if didn't fix it and just sat on shelf.

The Mechanic said to try this and that (things I already have tried but did again anyway) and to call him on his personal cell phone and let him know what I found and that he'd try to help. So I did along with the stock carb and let him know that it was the same situation and he said its not getting enough spark at higher RPM (so he confirmed out suspessions) and that it was probably stator coil shorting out or the "pulse generator". So I called ricky stator and ordered one that was supposed to be here tomorrow (Tues 29th).

Afterwards, I called my old reliable Tech near Iuka MS who I didn't want to take it to b/c I didn't think he'd do that sort of electrical stuff and also the stuff stays outside after a couple of days if its going to be a few days to pick it up. (We've delt with him for years but it was always more general stuff) He surprised me and he told me what to look for on my manual and how to check it over the phone but since I didn't have the correct max-voltage adapter he said to bring it buy the next day and that he had a box of extra black boxes and the instruments to check it but to just bring the manual so he'd know the correct numbers. So in tapeing the wires back up and putting everything back ready for the 110 mile trailer ride to MS the ground wire to the coil felt sloppy and found it was comming lose from the terminal end so I cut it off and recrimped a new one on and then the edelbrock back on and kicked it to get everything running and it worked like a dream!

So it ended up being a broken connection (it was connected but frayed to the terminal)to the ground of the coil!!! It took 2 weeks of frustration and the gas to trailer it everywhere when it normally stays in MS a wasted weekend from riding but over all no cost other than the coil that will arrive tomorrow which I will return! So thank you all for your advice and suggestions because you were all correct in the assumptions and the general cause! Being electrical!

I was really impressed with many of the ideas ya'll presented and it helped me narrow down the direction to ask for help since I think with the wire as it was if it was still taped I wouldn't have found it until I had bought another coil and tried to hook it up!

Ya'll are great! and thanks Big T for offering to let me try electrical parts and I am glad it didn't come to that but b/c the offer was there the offer is open as well if you need anything!





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