Less Sound= More Ground/ Article


21 replies to this topic
  • KillerHiller

Posted April 22, 2004 - 03:59 PM

#1

Check this out! Good Stuff! :)

http://www.moochmc.c...e.php?storyid=4

  • sirthumpalot

Posted April 23, 2004 - 01:06 AM

#2

Nice editorial. :)

  • Dano426

Posted April 23, 2004 - 03:56 AM

#3

I totaly agree. I put an FMFQ on my YZ426 and my neighbors still talk to me and smile. They shake their heads, but we are both smiling. :)

  • yathump

Posted April 23, 2004 - 04:36 AM

#4

Very good article, i have been considering getting a silent insert for my WB e-series for trail riding. Does anybody run one and does it make a big differencein sound or power?

  • PBDBLUE

Posted April 23, 2004 - 05:13 AM

#5

Save your money. I've had e-series exhausts on several of my bikes. The silent insert has only minimal effect. Even with 4-5 discs and the insert it is over 96db. Right now I'm running a stock YZ exhaust and a PMB endcap/insert on my desert bike and the stock WR with GYT on my dual sport. Both of them are quieter than my e-series ever was. Don't get me wrong I liked my e-series but if you need quiet they are not the way to go.

  • cowboyona426

Posted April 23, 2004 - 05:25 AM

#6

I must be the only one that thinks this guy is a little too "green." I agree that we all need to do something to make sure our riding areas are kept open, but that article peeved me just a little bit...

  • revolucien

Posted April 23, 2004 - 07:57 AM

#7

i agree the great outdoors is becoming less and less available because treehuggers are roping it all off. i have a factory 4 on my bike and happen to like both the way it sounds and, the way it performs and... i find the noise that comes from a seirra club member's mouth far more annoying than any dirt bike pipe!!! :) support your local riding clubs!!!

  • sirthumpalot

Posted April 23, 2004 - 01:35 PM

#8

You guys who like noise, just remember this. We are out numbered (at least when it comes to voting and supporting politicians) by those who want us gone. Noise gets them all riled up and adds people to their team. The quieter we are, the less we add to their strength. The louder we are, the more we add to their strength, which only shortens the life of our sport. Save the loud exhausts for the race tracks and maybe our kids will still have one or two acers they can ride on.

  • KILLERCUDA_83

Posted April 23, 2004 - 06:40 PM

#9

It sucks to be ya! Where i live theres not really any dirt tracks so we all either go riding in our neighbors fields who dont care or down the dirt roads or on a home built crappy track and noise is not an issue nobody cares about the noise and if they do they dont say anything ive had one neighbor complain about my dirtbike and it was just b/ci was going tofast down the dirtroad all the time never once complained abou the noise. Im also about to cut 2 inches off my stock pipe to add more top end and it will be much louder.

  • endurodog

Posted April 25, 2004 - 06:49 PM

#10

I have beat this issue to death over in the Land Use forums but here goes since its a pet peeve of mine. Less sound does not = more ground. Cali has been at 96 DB for over a year now and they are still fighting the same battles, with absolutly no more ground to show for it. The Less sound=More ground argument has been around for 30 years and do we have more ground than we did 30 years ago? We need to be responsible but realize that the people that want us gone would be fighting us no matter how little sound our bikes put out.

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  • sirthumpalot

Posted April 26, 2004 - 01:17 AM

#11

eudurodog,

Yes people want us gone regardless, but in some areas less sound does help. The eco-nazzies want us gone regardless, but if the people who live next to the riding areas can't hear us then how will they know we are there? And if they don't know we are there then they won't complain. It's still a loosing battle until we get everyone politically involved, but the louder our bikes are the harder it is to defend the position that we don't disturb the rest of the world.

  • endurodog

Posted April 26, 2004 - 01:49 AM

#12

regardless, but if the people who live next to the riding areas can't hear us then how will they know we are there?



In this simple form this is a true statement. But how low does the DB limit have to go to get to the level we won't offend people, thats the true question. Then once we figure out its 75 DB or the such is the dirtbiking community willing to ride bikes that have been stiffled that much for sound and make horrible power??? Yes we need to be responisble I believe that we can get good power from exhust systems and be in the 101 DB area, there is a trade off of performance when you go lower.

The bottom line is has Less sound gotten us any more ground in 30 years? Catchy phrase but look at what really gets riding areas closed down and it's not sound. Enviromental issues, besides sound, closes 99% of all the land we loose.

  • sirthumpalot

Posted April 26, 2004 - 02:18 AM

#13

Maybe we should rephrase it to, "how much less land have we lost due to quieter motorcycles". There is no reason that we can't get good power from an exhaust that is quieter than 96dB. Yes it will take some R+D, and yes the exhaust may gain a few pounds. But compared to bikes 10 or 15 years ago, we could acheive these sound leves and still be ahead in the performance area.

  • endurodog

Posted April 26, 2004 - 03:28 AM

#14

Maybe we should rephrase it to, "how much less land have we lost due to quieter motorcycles".



This would be more correct in it's simplist form but I don't believe that we have any more land left because of quiter motorcycles. You notice that I put 99% of closures are due to other issues beyond noise. I use to say 100% but someone pointed out a closure to me that was due to noise. It's on the sand dune area in Oregon, it's a buffer zone between some houses and the dunes. The thing about this is the DB limit there was all ready 93 DB and the area was still closed. Let me say before I get all post about an area closed because of noise, I don't buy it unless I see proof, proof was provided in this case, not just "I heard it was"

There is no reason that we can't get good power from an exhaust that is quieter than 96dB. Yes it will take some R+D,



I completely agree but the technology isn't there yet. I have an FMF Q for my WR and the power is stiffled. In time we will have systems that make good power and less sound. When this happens we should have them on our bikes, it's just curtious to other users in a multi-user land.

The main point of all of this is what is this costing us in $ and performance and what are we gaining from it? The history of the last 30 years is evidence of it.

  • Fly-nBri

Posted April 26, 2004 - 11:24 AM

#15

Im with Cowboy on that. I must be green also. :)

  • MXKyle

Posted April 27, 2004 - 04:33 AM

#16


There is no reason that we can't get good power from an exhaust that is quieter than 96dB. Yes it will take some R+D,



I completely agree but the technology isn't there yet. I have an FMF Q for my WR and the power is stiffled. In time we will have systems that make good power and less sound. When this happens we should have them on our bikes, it's just curtious to other users in a multi-user land.

The main point of all of this is what is this costing us in $ and performance and what are we gaining from it? The history of the last 30 years is evidence of it.



If that extra two horsepower is so freaking important then why do you run a muffler at all? With proper tuning you can eek out a little more power by going uncapped and just run ear plugs. Apparently you don't give a damn about what anyone thinks about the excessive noise you are making. I want to know where do you draw the line on noise? 105 decibels may not seem much to you but it's way too noisy for me. I'm a retired pro motocrosser that wins the vet classes now. I will not buy a pipe that makes my bike louder and I don't want to ride against some fool that thinks that painful noise is ok as long as he thinks it makes him go faster.

As long as everyone has to run a quiet pipe then it doesn't matter if there are a few extra ponies available at a higher noise limit. Leave the max horsepower and the extra noise at the drag strip because you probably can't use it on the track anyway. And in competition on the track is the only place where you can possibly justify needing that tiny extra. Certainly not for play riding at some dune.

I'm all for legislation to restrict noise from the bikes if people like you are so self centered that they don’t care that others are annoyed by it. Remember that I’m a lifetime racer and not the guy trying to enjoy a quiet walk a mile from where you are riding. I will never vote to remove your riding areas but the other guy will if you even slightly annoy him.

--KT--

  • endurodog

Posted April 27, 2004 - 05:07 AM

#17

Kyle what kind of jerk are you attacking my position without understanding it? That said I'll answer some of the questions you pose.

If that extra two horsepower is so freaking important then why do you run a muffler at all


Because I do care. If you are so worried about disturbing people why do you even start your bike? It's called a compromise. Where we compromise is where the question is. What do we gain from the compromise.

want to know where do you draw the line on noise?



I feel that 100 DB is a good compromise right now with the technology that is out there. There are several reasons I believe this. So I'm I to believe that you draw the line at 96? What brought you to this number?

I'm a retired pro motocrosser that wins the vet classes now



I'm very happy for you. That means you are so good you don't need the extra power. Glad you can put your needs for power in your little part of the world on all of us. By the way I'm an A enduro rider so I have some idea of racing myself, I know this is nothing compared to an ex-pro.

As long as everyone has to run a quiet pipe then it doesn't matter if there are a few extra ponies available at a higher noise limit



With this logic why don't we just run 70 DB pipes??? Then even less people would be offended.

I'm all for legislation to restrict noise from the bikes



So am I, thanks for asking, ohh wait you didn't you just assumed and we all know about assuming. For the record there was laws in place limiting DBs to 101 that were not enforced, guys were running systems putting out 118 DB. My feeling was the 101 should have been enforced before making them more restrictive.

if people like you are so self centered that they don’t care that others are annoyed by it.



Now don't even get me started on who is "self centered" in this post, is it the guy that assumes my position without asking questions, who goes on about he is an "ex-pro" racer and who puts his needs for power from his bike on everyone else?????


Now if you want to have a civil discussion on this I would be more than happy to discuss it with you because it obvious you don't understand my position or you can keep going on like you did in your last post. Your decision.

  • MXKyle

Posted April 27, 2004 - 11:01 AM

#18

.

Kyle what kind of jerk are you

I didn't know that there were different kinds of jerks. So for the purpose of continuing this thread you may simply refer to me as "You Jerk". Please use capitals. Hopefully this description of me will not bleed over to any other threads.

If you are so worried about disturbing people why do you even start your bike?

I am worried about disturbing people because I want to be able to start my bike in the future. It's called a compromise. Continued use is what we gain from compromising.

I feel that 100 DB is a good compromise right now with the technology that is out there. So I'm I to believe that you draw the line at 96? What brought you to this number?

We can start with OSHA. They list the values of what is accepted as loud, painful and physically detrimental.

According to the Occupational Safety and Health Agency (OSHA) if you expose yourself to 85 decibels of sound in the so-called A-weighted zone (that means mostly AUDIBLE) for 8 hours a day, five days a week for 10 years you are at considerable risk for some hearing loss. For 90 decibels, there is a 4 hours limit, 95 dB 2 hours, 100 dB 1 hour, 105 dB 1/2 hour, 110 dB 15 minutes, 120 dB 7.5 minutes, 125 3 and 3/4 minutes..you get the idea. Certain sounds (gun fire, artillery, jet or rocket engines, can cause instant hearing loss or deafness)if you are close enough to them.

That means to me that if we don't limit the noise we not only piss people off we risk injury to anyone in the vicinity. This very standard can and is being used against us. I have heard several times that 4-strokes will be the death of off road motorcycles because they are so much louder than 2-strokes. All the greens need to do is wave this OSHA standard in front of the general public and proclaim us as bad guys causing noise pollution. Unfortunately, in some cases, they would be right. I force myself to remember that if we don’t police ourselves they will. I truly believe that’s why we continue to lose.

That means you are so good you don't need the extra power. Glad you can put your needs for power in your little part of the world on all of us.


I posted my capabilities so that you would know that I wasn't one of the guys posting that the bike was ‘too fast for me’ and wondering ‘why anyone would want to modify it’. In fact if you do a search on some of my other posts I have been just like everyone else I’m looking for more power. I have asked several times on threads concerning aftermarket pipes whether they were excessively loud. Because the answer has always been yes I still haven't bought a pipe. But I’m still looking.

With this logic why don't we just run 70 DB pipes??? Then even less people would be offended.

I race mountain bikes too. We don't have much trouble getting land set aside for those. If the motorcycles were quite enough we would be lumped in with the mountain bikes. There would still be greens that would want to block our access but they wouldn't have the support from the general public that they have now.

I'm all for legislation to restrict noise from the bikes



So am I, thanks for asking, ohh wait you didn't you just assumed and we all know about assuming. For the record there was laws in place limiting DBs to 101 that were not enforced, guys were running systems putting out 118 DB. My feeling was the 101 should have been enforced before making them more restrictive.


Like I mentioned before 4-strokes are louder than 2-strokes. Because of the current popularity of the new 4-stroke the entire off-road motorcycle community is coming under more fire than in the past.

Now if you want to have a civil discussion on this I would be more than happy to discuss it with you because it obvious you don't understand my position or you can keep going on like you did in your last post. Your decision.


Perhaps I did read more into your posts than I should have. I work with a bunch of open header Harly riders that truely believe that it is their right to make as much noise as they want regardless of how obnoxious it is to the rest of us. I immediately lumped you into that group. Sorry if that is not the case.

--KT--

  • John_Lorenz

Posted April 27, 2004 - 11:51 AM

#19

Bottom line is this

We are all loosing riding areas because we are pissing and moaning about what is the greatest issue, during this whole time we remain disjointed and un-united while the our advisories triumph

Go ahead and keep bickering over this stupid :) sound issue. In the mean time Clear Creek is set to be closed, along with areas in Socal and nevada

Go right ahead keep pissin up a tree :D

Sheeesh people get a grip, it dont freaking matter if its sound, tires oil or whatever its freakin war

  • endurodog

Posted April 27, 2004 - 01:47 PM

#20

noise as they want regardless of how obnoxious it is to the rest of us. I immediately lumped you into that group. Sorry if that is not the case.





Appology accepted :)

We can start with OSHA. They list the values of what is accepted as loud, painful and physically detrimental



To be truely scientific about using these figures about harmfulness you need to determine at what distance from source, and direction from source? Does wearing a helmet have an effect on the damage incurred? I'm sure I could come up with other factors not addressed also.

I race mountain bikes too. We don't have much trouble getting land set aside for those



There are some assumptions in this statement. Is that because of noise or because of the errosion issues are different? Is it because Mtn bikes move at slower speeds and there for are less frightening than dirtbikes approaching. Again there are other issues that can also be brought into this statement.

Like I mentioned before 4-strokes are louder than 2-strokes. Because of the current popularity of the new 4-stroke the entire off-road motorcycle community is coming under more fire than in the past.





I have seen no evidence of this. Noise has been an issue for 30 years. That is the birth of the "less sound=More ground" slogan and movement.

Now with that said I have always stated we need to keep our bikes as quite as possible while still being able to enjoy them. Thats why I believe 100 DB or in that area, is a good compromise. There are systems out there that make good power at this level and are very noticably different than the 118DB systems. Being quite is one small piece of the puzzle. But we need to keep pressure on the business side to make quiter systems available. In the future I believe we will have better performance with less noise, but it's down the road.

With saying its a "small piece of the puzzle" comes the big piece. What is closing riding areas. It's errosion issues, endangered species act, and politicians trying to leave a lasting legacy, like Clintons proposal out West on millions of sq miles of land that would ban even Mtn bikes from those areas.

Many websites out there list closure info. Some orgs continue to push the sound issue as a huge issue while there websites are filled with many, many closure stories and none have to do with noise, they have to do with the above listed issues.





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