Washington SB5156 – Helmets optional

[Slackkinhard]

It's not necessarily the fatality rates (cheaper alternative) but rather the disabled for life injuries that we / general public would pay for in many cases. hundreds of thousands in medical bills would be first.....followed by even more $$ in disability payments and other costs for the rest of the riders life. Even if it is only a few dozen or hundred a year, that is hundreds of millions of extra costs the rest of us bear.

 

Joe

 

that's a BS argument. We piss away so much money on so many other things that choosing not to take care of my FREE citizens that had an accident is anti-American. Kinda like not taking care of a Vet, there is no excuse for it. I'm sure there is a jewish lawyer somewhere that can articulate the crap out of anything, find fault and a reason to tell you No, but we had a revolution to get away from folks like that. No sense in bringing that over here.  If an adult want to take their chances without a helmet, I'll vote to pay for scraping them up.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Slackkinhard

[trailmeisterjoe]

that's a BS argument. We piss away so much money on so many other things that choosing not to take care of my FREE citizens that had an accident is anti-American. Kinda like not taking care of a Vet, there is no excuse for it. I'm sure there is a jewish lawyer somewhere that can articulate the crap out of anything, find fault and a reason to tell you No, but we had a revolution to get away from folks like that. No sense in bringing that over here.  If an adult want to take their chances without a helmet, I'll vote to pay for scraping them up.

I agree....we WASTE enough, so why add millions or billions to OUR bill already. makes NO sense and i don't give a rats ass about that guys helmet less freedom if he is going to have ME pay for his ass the rest of his life ( and all of his other helmet less accident victims). if YOU feel that you have no issue paying way more in taxes and fees then go right ahead. NOT ME

 

 

Joe

[Slackkinhard]

I agree....we WASTE enough, so why add millions or billions to OUR bill already. makes NO sense and i don't give a rats ass about that guys helmet less freedom if he is going to have ME pay for his ass the rest of his life ( and all of his other helmet less accident victims). if YOU feel that you have no issue paying way more in taxes and fees then go right ahead. NOT ME

 

 

Joe

 

So you're gonna start there? Destroy the freedom of a tiny few? Going after the little guy does nothing to make your insurance bill go down....red herring argument.  Even if there was never another fatality due to not wearing a helmet, our bills won't change cuz when ya look at the numbers, folks are dying at a high enough rate to justify it. Besides, whenever one of these incidents happen, the family of the deceased spends time and energy trying to change the rules for the folks that are actually participating in the activity. These family members don't mind telling you to put a helmet on...it gets them attention, and they've got an excuse to not participate. They no longer have any skin in the game if ya ask me.

 

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/fatalityfacts/motorcycles

[pscook]

Dying from a motorcycle accident is cheap. It's surviving that costs everyone money.

https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/safebike/costs.html

http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/how-you-not-wearing-a-helmet-costs-me-money

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-cost-of-repealing-mandatory-motorcycle-helmet-laws/

 

 

A significant difference was found for total hospital charges. The mean total hospital charge for helmeted patients was $4184.26 compared to $7383.31 for unhelmeted patients. The prediction model was statistically significant, indicating that not wearing a helmet starts the patient at a cost of $3199.06.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22458792 

Among riders who died at the crash scene, the proportion not wearing helmets rose from 14 percent before the law was repealed to 68 percent afterward.  http://www.foxnews.com/health/2016/01/08/injuries-soar-after-michigan-stops-requiring-motorcycle-helmets.html

[tod701]

Dying from a motorcycle accident is cheap. It's surviving that costs everyone money.

https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/safebike/costs.html

http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/how-you-not-wearing-a-helmet-costs-me-money

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-cost-of-repealing-mandatory-motorcycle-helmet-laws/

 

Rough nonscientific (possibly nonsensical) arithmetic / congerin'. 

 

Hospital bills almost double without a lid.

The chance of getting dead more than doubles.

 

Concerning the fiscal impact on society, maybe a break even deal?

Edited January 17, 2017 by tod701

[Slackkinhard]

It's such a minor thing in the greater context. Where are these 'billions' being paid out?  Is it any worse than trampolines?  I don't see anybody up in arms about them

 

"A recent study found that nearly 100,000 trampoline-related injuries occurred in 2009 among children."

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=trampoline+death+statistics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Edited January 17, 2017 by Slackkinhard

[trailmeisterjoe]

So you're gonna start there? Destroy the freedom of a tiny few? Going after the little guy does nothing to make your insurance bill go down....red herring argument.  Even if there was never another fatality due to not wearing a helmet, our bills won't change cuz when ya look at the numbers, folks are dying at a high enough rate to justify it. Besides, whenever one of these incidents happen, the family of the deceased spends time and energy trying to change the rules for the folks that are actually participating in the activity. These family members don't mind telling you to put a helmet on...it gets them attention, and they've got an excuse to not participate. They no longer have any skin in the game if ya ask me.

 

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/motorcycles/fatalityfacts/motorcycles

 

It aint the insurance bills increasing.......it's billions of $$ paid by OUR gov't to sustain that rider with wheelchairs, prescriptions, live in help, disability payments, food stamps, hospital stays, medical specialists, special vehicles, and the list goes on  and on and on for EACH severely injured rider.

 

Joe

[Slackkinhard]

It aint the insurance bills increasing.......it's billions of $$ paid by OUR gov't to sustain that rider with wheelchairs, prescriptions, live in help, disability payments, food stamps, hospital stays, medical specialists, special vehicles, and the list goes on  and on and on for EACH severely injured rider.

 

Joe

 

Show me those billions? Where is our government shelling out all this perceived billions? Reality is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to thousands of other risky activities....for some reason, folks want to take this exaggerated view of life and make a bunch of rules about it. If you want to wear a helmet, wear one when you want to. Where are all these folks that we are taking care of?

 

Ever put a price on a bomb?  How many of those do ya think we drop daily?  I'm sorry, I will not support the desire to piss away $.50 on every dollar for an incredibly inefficient military and government, yet not take care of their citizens when they have an accident. This is what most people call micro-management...aka, recreating Europe and the society we are trying to get away from cuz it sucks.

 

BTW, if not the insurance companies paying, then who?  I'm sure the insurance companies want to lower their payouts, and they will for sure be on your side...however it won't cost you any more or less if a few people a year get maimed.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Slackkinhard

[trailmeisterjoe]

Show me those billions? Where is our government shelling out all this perceived billions? Reality is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to thousands of other risky activities....for some reason, folks want to take this exaggerated view of life and make a bunch of rules about it. If you want to wear a helmet, wear one when you want to. Where are all these folks that we are taking care of?

 

Ever put a price on a bomb?  How many of those do ya think we drop daily?  I'm sorry, I will not support the desire to piss away $.50 on every dollar for an incredibly inefficient military and government, yet not take care of their citizens when they have an accident. This is what most people call micro-management...aka, recreating Europe and the society we are trying to get away from cuz it sucks.

 

BTW, if not the insurance companies paying, then who?  I'm sure the insurance companies want to lower their payouts, and they will for sure be on your side...however it won't cost you any more or less if a few people a year get maimed.

 

The billions WOULD be paid out IF helmet laws go away.  Easily cost 100k per year for tax payers ( not insurance companies for dimwits with zero insurance) to cover medical, and disability, prescriptions, in home care, etc for EACH helmetless victim for the rest of their lives 20-30 or more years.  100k x 25 years= 2 million 500 thousand PER .....X 500 victims = one BILLION, 500 million dollars. Not willing to spend that kind of taxpayer money in the FUTURE for a silly reason of freedom to not wear.

 

Joe

[Slackkinhard]

The billions WOULD be paid out IF helmet laws go away.  Easily cost 100k per year for tax payers ( not insurance companies for dimwits with zero insurance) to cover medical, and disability, prescriptions, in home care, etc for EACH helmetless victim for the rest of their lives 20-30 or more years.  100k x 25 years= 2 million 500 thousand PER .....X 500 victims = one BILLION, 500 million dollars. Not willing to spend that kind of taxpayer money in the FUTURE for a silly reason of freedom to not wear.

 

Joe

 

Not sure where you got those numbers, but

 

"As of the most recent report by the Department of Transportation, there were 8,410,255 motorcycles registered in the United States by private citizens and commercial organizations in 2011"

 

That's a whole lot of good Freedom loving Americans out enjoying themselves. Now, how many of these serious injuries per year are you alluding to?  I found info that says that over half of these folks have their own private insurance, the rest end up on the government dime. The biggest problem they have is they really have no good data....not sure if this is by design or what, but it seems they need to get their act together.

 

https://one.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/Motorcycle_HTML/overview.html

"Some topics in motorcycle safety, such as the benefits of helmet use and acute medical costs, have been studied extensively. Many other interesting topics, however, have received little coverage. The primary culprit for these research gaps is the absence of necessary data"

 

I really don't believe in restricting the freedoms of the many for the accidents of a very few. I realize it's sensational when it happens, but I've grown up around motorcycles my whole life, and nobody I know ever got turned into a big cost to our government. As far as I'm concerned, if someone can legitimize paying my neighbor not to work, they can pay for a few adult motorcyclists that had an accident.

 

How many times have you heard of a motorcyclist riding around on the hwys of MT, WY, ID getting turned into a cost to our government? It just doesn't happen, so why make a one size fit all policy? Makes folks feel good I suppose

[Tye Durden]

Oppose, we may as well eliminate the seat belt law and get rid of DUI as an infraction. I am generally against nanny state laws, but not this. I saw a guy go down and called 911 before we had a helmet law. I am sure he was enjoying the night air in his face, wind blowing in his hair right before the street knocked his brains out.

[Slackkinhard]

Oppose, we may as well eliminate the seat belt law and get rid of DUI as an infraction. I am generally against nanny state laws, but not this. I saw a guy go down and called 911 before we had a helmet law. I am sure he was enjoying the night air in his face, wind blowing in his hair right before the street knocked his brains out.

 

I just don't understand why you feel the need to protect me from myself?  I'm an adult, why ya so concerned about this one particular way that folks may hurt themselves? Motorcycle crashes without a helmet doesn't physically harm anyone other than the rider.

 

I guess it just fascinates me that so many people think it's the 'right' thing to do to save someone from them self. Except in the case of ignorance I suppose you should warn someone. I just can't buy that a normal minded adult doesn't understand that his head is in danger.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Slackkinhard

[Tye Durden]

I just don't understand why you feel the need to protect me from myself? I'm an adult, why ya so concerned about this one particular way that folks may hurt themselves? Motorcycle crashes without a helmet doesn't physically harm anyone other than the rider.

I guess it just fascinates me that so many people think it's the 'right' thing to do to save someone from them self. Except in the case of ignorance I suppose you should warn someone. I just can't buy that a normal minded adult doesn't understand that his head is in danger.

Do you think we should eliminate the seatbelt law too? Just curious as you can make the same argument for that.

I am not passionate about it, I just think they should be required. It's common sense, which we all know isn't common. Here is what will happen if the law is revoked:

Insurance claims will go up for head injuries. That will increase your cost for insurance and mine

More riders will ride without insurance, or be underinsured because of increased cost. That puts everyone else at increased financial risk.

Riders with head injuries that are invalid vegetables will exhaust their resources and become wards of the state. That costs you and me money.

So what if it's $1 a year, or $100. If your decision to not wear a helmet costs me $ then I have a stake in it.

On the plus side, if it happens might clean up the gene pool a bit.

[Tye Durden]

And if it passes I will still be able to sleep just fine. It's not a huge deal I just don't think we should repeal it.

[Slackkinhard]

And if it passes I will still be able to sleep just fine. It's not a huge deal I just don't think we should repeal it.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with it either, except that it gives certain personalities in a position of enforcement, a tool to apply the 'law' where it was never really intended. I've been victim to a couple of these types. Agreed, it is not the norm, however the amount of disruption to my pursuit of happiness far outweighed the risk I was taking. And not only me, but I've had friends harassed for no good reason too. So if the 'po po' could start policing itself along common sense guidelines, I wouldn't be making a stink, other than to say it's against American ideals.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Slackkinhard

[pscook]

So if we are required to have a certain insurance level, what's to stop a cop from pulling over every single motorcyclist as they need to confirm you have insurance? I see road blocks and checkpoints for all cyclists, regardless if you are wearing a helmet. Another opportunity to police the "fringe" of society if we allow riders to ride without helmets.

[EmpireofDerp]

So if we are required to have a certain insurance level, what's to stop a cop from pulling over every single motorcyclist as they need to confirm you have insurance? I see road blocks and checkpoints for all cyclists, regardless if you are wearing a helmet. Another opportunity to police the "fringe" of society if we allow riders to ride without helmets.

Roadblocks and checkpoints? Those don't work if you know your rights. Also, you seriously have those in Warshington?

[Slackkinhard]

I'm perfectly fine with no insurance required in this state when riding a motorcycle. Since this idea would change that, I'm not for it.

 

see there, I can compromise ?

[tod701]

I'm perfectly fine with no insurance required in this state when riding a motorcycle. Since this idea would change that, I'm not for it.

 

see there, I can compromise ?

 

The insurance requirement is limited to riders without helmets.

It does not change the current exemption.

[Slackkinhard]

The insurance requirement is limited to riders without helmets.

It does not change the current exemption.

 

yeah, but I fear it will