Out of Clickers......Help!

[CaptainKnobby]

Mog is correct....what you need to do is service both ends (I suspect air in the shock) putting the stock springs back in and find a new suspension guy...... .48 is too much for a YZ450 at your weight let alone a 250 2 stroke

Well.....I am not 100% sure what the springs I have in it. I'am trying to find out with the tuner. I texted him today and asked him if he remebered wjat spring rates he put on it when he set ot up. He texed back and said NO he didnt remember.

I just figured they would have been the next size up from stock. So the rates I gave you may have not been correct.

Tom wallace who is with Factory Connection knows my tuner and says he is really good.

Like I said ......when the bike was first done it felt real good and did up until just recently. I changed the fluid in Forks and shock back in July 4th but havent rode it that much since then. Been riding my 4stroke. I have changed the fluid in it twice since I had the bike set up and revalved when new but didnt put new bushings or anything in,just inspected them and looked to be good.

Maybe they are worn now and needs replaced. They have 30hrs on em now.

[CaptainKnobby]

Stock rates on the YZ250 are .44kg/mm and 4.9kg/mm

to keep the same front / rear balance ratio as the factory:

.42 / 4.7

.44 / 4.9

.46 / 5.1

.48 / 5.3

some 4 strokes may run one rate stiffer in front due to increased weight.

He probably put in the .46 and 5.1 spring rate.

[CaptainKnobby]

Fork springs are 1 rate too stiff. That must be really imbalanced with the back if you're only 1 rate up from stock in the back. Fairly sure the stock springrate is .44 so you'd be 2 steps up from that.

I am not 100% sure what rate springs he used in front or rear. I was just assuming he used 48 in front and a 5.9 in rear...... But being he is a reptable tuner then I am sure he used the ones for my weight and the balance of the bike. Which I assume they would be 46/5.1

Like I said before..... When tje bike was brand new and I rode it for about 6hrs and didnt like the stock valveing or set up......thats when I took the bike to him and have him to valve it an set it up for me.

After he redone valveing and I got the bike back and rode it..........it felt way way better......it didnt sink way down in the stroke in the rear when going down bumpy straights and it didnt feel harsh anymore when going across small chop.

Also after I got done riding it didnt feel like someone took a 2x4 and beat me across back. I asked him what he done to make it not feel like I had been beat across my back with a 2x4.......his response was....."I took the sting out of it"

I believe the bushing is just worn along with the piston band in the shock and the Fork bushings and Metal slide are worn and just needs replaced.

What are some of the symptons of worn piston band and bushing in shock and worn Fork bushings and Metal slide?

My guess would be a harsh feeling Forks and Shock would be harsh also with loss of damping.

[CaptainKnobby]

Imo 0.48 at 165lb and 365cc is crazy on a 2 stroke, that's why your clickers are fully open , bushes will be worn out as well

Ok......Let's say my Tuner put in the correct sorings for my weight and lets say he used the .46kg springs in the front Forks and he used a 5.1 kg soring on the rear. With that being said .......

How many cc's of Fork fluid would you put in for the inner chamber? Would you use 148cc like the manual states? And how much in the outer chamber? 345cc?

As soon as the shock and Fork parts arrive by Fed-ex from SDI I will get them on the bike.

[GDI70]

You would be fine at one rate stiffer than stock on the springs, and someone who knows how to valve.

[CaptainKnobby]

Mog is correct....what you need to do is service both ends (I suspect air in the shock) putting the stock springs back in and find a new suspension guy...... .48 is too much for a YZ450 at your weight let alone a 250 2 stroke

I have the stock fork springs which are 5.0kg in my 2016 yz450 and stock rear spring 5.4kg I like the way this bike feels. Best yamaha suspension I have ride out of 4 yamaha 4-strokes I have owened.

However it is kinda stiff but to me it feels like It rides higher up in the stroke and no matter how big the jump is or how high you go........When you land it feels as though you never even jumped.

I run the Fork clickers on this 2016 yz450 with the compression at 10 out and Rebound at 16 out

Shock Low speed comp is at 17 out and Rebound at 23 out. My sag is 103mm with 42mm Free sag.

If my YZ250 2-stroke felt the way my 450 does .........I believe I could take on James stewart.

[CaptainKnobby]

You would be fine at one rate stiffer than stock on the springs, and someone who knows how to valve.

I can get 30% off with Factory Connection. Never used em before. I have all ways went with Litz racing from Blountville,TN. Since they set up most of the guys bikes from Muddy Creek raceway. He has been doing it for 35yrs

[mlatour]

How many cc's of Fork fluid would you put in for the inner chamber? Would you use 148cc like the manual states?

 

And how much in the outer chamber? 345cc?

 

 

The specs listed for the inner chamber are a nominal "minimum" to insure there is no air inside during re-assy.

it's actualy at bit more than what is required so the cartridge will bleed out some oil and the remaining air bubbles when cycled.

 

You can overfill them all the way to the top if you want (good luck getting the BV assy. to screw back on)

but once cycled/bled there won't be any more oil inside than if you had filled them to the recommended amount.

 

If you underfill them you'll have major damping issues.

 

 

Outer chamber affects the last 1/3rd of the stroke, running more oil prevents bottoming but also 'ramps up' stiffness' progression (harshness)

with the right valving you can run the minimal amount, and still not bottom too hard on big hits.

 

At 340cc in my YZ125, and with relatively soft valving (BV & MV)

I now use up to the last 3/4" of travel and even on flat & front wheel landings it never feels like it bottoms hard.

Edited October 18, 2016 by mlatour

[GDI70]

I can get 30% off with Factory Connection. Never used em before. I have all ways went with Litz racing from Blountville,TN. Since they set up most of the guys bikes from Muddy Creek raceway. He has been doing it for 35yrs

Nothing wrong with experience. However, those of us that have grown up with the later two chamber design; are not at a disadvantage whatsoever. In fact, we may even be better. Just saying.

[CaptainKnobby]

The specs listed for the inner chamber are a nominal "minimum" to insure there is no air inside during re-assy.

it's actualy at bit more than what is required so the cartridge will bleed out some oil and the remaining air bubbles when cycled.

You can overfill them all the way to the top if you want (good luck getting the BV assy. to screw back on)

but once cycled/bled there won't be any more oil inside than if you had filled them to the recommended amount.

If you underfill them you'll have major damping issues.

Outer chamber affects the last 1/3rd of the stroke, running more oil prevents bottoming but also 'ramps up' stiffness' progression (harshness)

with the right valving you can run the minimal amount, and still not bottom too hard on big hits.

At 340cc in my YZ125, and with relatively soft valving (BV & MV)

I now use up to the last 3/4" of travel and even on flat & front wheel landings it never feels like it bottoms hard.

Everything you mentioned I allready knew except for the part about adding more fluid to the outer chamber, about it stopping bottoming but at the same time adding harshness. May be why Iam feeling that harsness and having to soften the clickers so far out. Ever since I had the bike revalved it has done good, never has bottomed out with me. I was just trying to figure out and try things that I thought I knew would make the Forks/shock feel more solid,stiffer if you will,not harsher when riding over hitting breaking bumps or choppy stuff. Just taking that mushy kind of feeling/spongy feeling out when you sit on it.

I was just wanting to try an figure out why the bike feels a little mushy in the Forks.

Maybe cause thats how 2-strokes are made to feel. I just like a stiffer Front like whats on my 4-stroke but maybe you cant have a feel on the Forks of a 2-stroke like on a 4-stroke, or maybe you can and ot has to do with valveing in order to get ot there.

Thats what Iam trying to figure out. Once I do......then maybe I might be better off to get a Race Tech Gold valve kit for the Forks and Shock and use there Directions to do it myself.

Correct me if I am wrong.......but The hardest part of valveing would be the filing down the but on the Basevalve and Mid-valve in order to get the nut off to access the shims wouldnt it.

If so then that part is all ready done where I have all ready had the Forks and Shock revalved by my tuner. So now all I would have to do when I got the Gold valve kit would be ......unscrew the nut to take the piston off and shims and just use Race Techs directions to install there piston and shims.....correct?

Edited October 18, 2016 by CaptainKnobby

[mog]

Go back to 340cc and go to Std clickers and it should be less mushy and less harsh

[mlatour]

-on installing the Gold Valve system

 

Grinding the factory peening off the valve / nuts isn't difficult but sometimes 'dressing' the final thread can be tricky.

Once you've used Locktite on the threads, always heat the nut to soften the Locktite before disassembly

and clean the threads on a wire brush to remove all traces of dried Locktite. (inside the nut as well with something pointy)

These are easily damaged if overtorqued or, if there is resistance when loosening the nut

once you grind the peening you have less thread length to work with.

 

The 'hardest part of valving' is actually figuring out what damping circuit relates to what handling behavior on the track : knowledge / experience

The RT DVS recommendations get you in the ballpark, it took me about 10 revalves/different settings to get mine 'perfect' to my tastes.

 

The valving instructions are quite complete but if you really want to pay attention to small details

you'll break out the caliper and measure each component in both forks to assure uniformity between both sides.

As with any mass produced items there are some production tolerances,

spacer height, piston recess depths etc. etc. many can be lapped on a plate glass and 400 grit sandpaper to be exactly the same in both forks.

 

Be accurate on your weight and skill level when filling out the DVS question form,

I may have over-evaluated both a bit which changed the suggested settings.

Edited October 18, 2016 by mlatour

[Piney Woods]

I think Mog is right in post 31. Put things(clickers/sag) back to what the tuner had originally and try that with fresh oil. Very interesting thread. If not too far away I think I would take my stuff to your tuner and have a detailed talk with him. If you use anyone else you risk another trial and error period and may end up lost like me. If you were happy  till something changed why not let him inspect things. And as a repeat customer I'll bet he will work with you on price. Why would you want to change the valving when you have repeatedly said you were very happy with it? Is it possible you may have done something wrong when you serviced it?  Good luck.

[GDI70]

You can do rt stuff, and it will work. But the stock stuff is very tunable, and more cost effective. The two stokes are an awesome setup when done properly. I like my fork clickers at 10c 14r, on shock i use 11r 13c 1.5 hc with my valving. I use 350 cc .

[CaptainKnobby]

I think Mog is right in post 31. Put things(clickers/sag) back to what the tuner had originally and try that with fresh oil. Very interesting thread. If not too far away I think I would take my stuff to your tuner and have a detailed talk with him. If you use anyone else you risk another trial and error period and may end up lost like me. If you were happy till something changed why not let him inspect things. And as a repeat customer I'll bet he will work with you on price. Why would you want to change the valving when you have repeatedly said you were very happy with it? Is it possible you may have done something wrong when you serviced it? Good luck.

I believe what my problem is.....is that I have gotten to use to my 2016's YZ450's suspension and want this 250 to be like it. I have 8.5hrs of ride time on the Fluid that I have in it now. I changed the fluid back in July on the 4th.

As far as doing anything to when I serviced it .......the answer is no.....unless you could do something by just changing the fluid cause that is all I have done to this bike. I haven't replaced the bushing,metal slide,oil seal,wipers yet and they have 33.4 hours on them to be exact cause I looked at my log book to see how many hours was on the bike when I had the revalve done and how many is on it now.

One thing I have noticed both times That I have changed the fluid in the forks. The right Fork (non caliper side). Is both times that I have changed the fluid , the base valve section of the fork has been unscrewed from the bottom section of the cartridge rod. The left fork has never came unscrewed like the right one. Didn't seem to hurt anything though. So when I reassembled everything I just made sure I screwed that piece on pretty snug so it wouldn't happen again.

Another thing that I believe that my problem is. I have never used a big suspension company like Enzo, Factory Connection,Race Tech, MB1 ect.ect.. And have all ways just took it to this tuner in Blountville,TN about an hour and a half from me which is I believe 70 miles from my house.

And I believe my biggest problem is, not knowing what other results are out there through different company's and thinking......if I have taken t to race tech or Enzo It may have been set it better,when in fact it may have been the exact thing, who knows.

[mog]

Enzo does great work but tends to go on the stiff side of things

[CaptainKnobby]

You can do rt stuff, and it will work. But the stock stuff is very tunable, and more cost effective. The two stokes are an awesome setup when done properly. I like my fork clickers at 10c 14r, on shock i use 11r 13c 1.5 hc with my valving. I use 350 cc .

your settings is the exact same thing mine was all ways on before I added the extra oil in outer tubes.

My settings were all the same except for Forks Compression, Mine was 11 out. I ran my Rebound at 14 out and sometimes went to 15 out but found that 14 done the best without the front kicking. My oil level Was either 345cc or 350cc I am pretty sure it was 350cc cause I poured the fluid out in a ratio rite cup to measure how much he had put in my outer tubes. That reminds me....l.lwhen my tuner was doing the Mid-valve on my 2016 450, When he was pouring in the fluid in the inner cartridge, he didn't just fill it to say just at or below those two bleed holes. He looked in my service manual of what the standard extent of fluid level was for the inner cartridge when it is fully extended and measured out that amount, like f it was 145-148cc he measured out 148cc and poured that in. When I changed my fluid I just poured it in until the fluid level was just at the two bleed holes. Excess came out when I held it level to bleed it and then when I purged it.

Shock was the same as yours. Ran Low comp at 13 out rebound at 8-10 out usually stayed at 8 out 10 an above the rear gets a little bouncy. HSC I have set usually at 1 1/2 turn out. I believe all of it is just n my head.

First.......liking the way the my 16 yz450 feels .....like the way it rides higher in the stroke I guess, meaning how Plush it feels compared to my 250 (And maybe my parts inside are worn in the 250). Reason why some of the Plushness is gone. Compared to my 450 which only has 9 hours on the bike.

[GDI70]

Don't use a ratio rite; use a graduated cylinder to measure. It's best.

[CaptainKnobby]

Enzo does great work but tends to go on the stiff side of things

Stiff as in...... Harsh feeling when riding......or stiff .....like Plush feeling when riding. I know there is a way you can make a bikes forks and shock ride higher up in the stroke or you can make them ride lower down in the stroke.

The tuner I use has set all my bikes up to where they rode lower in the stroke..... which in turn, to me ....made the bike feel a touch on the soft side, soft side to where when you hit a big jump and landed, it felt kinda Harsh, to where as on my 16 450 that has stock valving..... other than just that little Mid-valve revalve work on the Forks, rides higher up in the stroke which in turn makes the forks and suspension feel real Plush and at the same time stiff. So when I hit a be jump on the 450 and land, it doesn't have that slap kind of harsh feeling when you land. It just feels like you never even had jumped........crazy!

See..... That's what I am saying. I never have used anyone else than Litz racing for revalved and set ups so I don't know what's out there. I like my bikes a little on the stiff side that's why when I took my 16 450 to him, I told him I really like the way it felt in the stock form of the shock and forks. How it felt Plush and how it felt like it rode higher up in the stroke. Told hm All I wanted is the Front forks to feel like that aren't so tall up front. Asked if he could lower the front a tad so it didn't feel like it was riding so high up front, but at the same time still have that plush feeling.

He done something to the mid ale, and what ever shim he added or moved done the job. It lowered the front down and I still had the plushness and higher in the stroke feeling.

[CaptainKnobby]

Don't use a ratio rite; use a graduated cylinder to measure. It's best.

I have both......I just used the ratio rite cause it was just sitting there. I have the Tall skinny beaker that I use to measure out my fluid.