Posted April 10, 2002 - 05:16 AM
You missed understood my post, I have no problems with you enjoying yourself, Insuranc or No Insurance.
My post was to ask the question for the person that said no ins no ride, how far can that go, fishing, hiking etc etc.
I was also stating that We all pay for supporting the Sociaty in a whole i.e. premiums higher cost aka Hospital bills and Car Premiums and so on.
This is a very touchy subject and no one will answer it any time soon. Personally for me Only Speaking, I have no issues with anyone doing what they want to do, thats why I live in America.
But I draw the line when it effects me directly,
We had a place to ride up here not so long ago called MetCalf road. It was shutdown by those that sued the placed after getting hurt and no insurance. So to pay the bills the attornies successfully sued and got the placed cloased down.
My Point is yes you do have the right to do what ever you want, But Not at my expense "PERIOD"
I mean no disrespect at all, but the failure of responcibilty should not fall on the hands that did not perpatrait it. Some would have you think that sociaty is responcible for others and on the same hand they would say you have the right to do whatever you want.
But the reality of this 1 demensional thinking is we live in a 3 demensional world and what others do have rippling effects on others.
[ April 10, 2002: Message edited by: EgoAhole ]
Posted April 10, 2002 - 05:41 AM
I did misread your initial message. There are many ways to close tracks, getting hurt and suing them and regulating them out of business. This is government regulation or 'DEMANDing' they change. The reasons this last is important is because if someone demands a change, then gets hurt, it improves their chances in civil court, even though it should mean they recognized the danger and did it anyway.
The track that closed. The suing party may not have had insurance but don't think they wouldn't have sued anyway. The track is no more responsible since they didn't have insurance than it would have been if they did have insurance. Civil suits have the allure of the lottery system, even jurors get this attitude.
All, make all the suggestions and complaints you feel appropriate to the tracks. Most have room for general improvement. Then decide whether or not to patronize that track. If it's easy for track owners, start your own track or organize your own club. Then make all the rules you want and enforce them on people who patronize you. I'm serious, I've been toying with starting a club closer to Columbus in an abandoned quarry close to downtown (I have over an hour drive in any direction to a track now). Start your own.
It saddens me that my local commercial track (New Vienna, OH 84m from my house) has to struggle through lawsuits and regulations just to provide a track we can patronize. I have to believe they are barely making a go of it anyway. They are kind of heros to me. You can guess who the bad guys are.
Posted April 10, 2002 - 05:53 AM
At our local track, most riders are decent enough to pay some attention, but the mini-bikes mixed with the big bikes is just plain bad news. Now they have started having a 1 hour session at lunchtime for the 50-60cc's in which the parents can follow them on a big bike, this is fine. But on busy practice days, there are still too many slow, young riders on 50 and 60cc machines that are flat out a danger. I know we NEED these new riders, and I love seeing them ride, in fact, my own child will be on a bike next year.
I think most tracks that have all day practices should have at least two sessions for the real mini's, like at VP we go from 9am till 4pm, and I do not think most people would mind letting the little guys ride from say, 11-12 and 2-3...
It is worth it if it could save someoness life. especially a child as young as this one is. I love MX, and I do not want to see our sport damaged by things such as this, nor do I think we need to over react and make tracks go broke by requiring paid flaggers at every session. Some common sense on the riders part and track operators would go a *long* ways towards ensuring a lifetime of good MX riding and racing...
Posted April 10, 2002 - 06:05 AM
Mark is right, there are enimies of our sport that will stop at nothing to drag it down and see it burried, we can not allow that to happen. If it means joining the local MC group then do it.
I will volinteer my time when available to moderate, flag, grab a kid in shot of being mowed down if thats what it takes.
Nuff Said on this for me, Thanks therapture for starting this up, It is time for us to see the tracks are safe !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted April 10, 2002 - 06:12 AM
anyway I think what tracks like VP here in central texas is doing is a good thing pulling all big bikes off the track for a 30-hour 2-3 times a day. They do this at pretty constant times so you know from 12-12:30-1 there will be kids on the track & no big bikes... This leaves big blocks of time open to the others. Some tracks are just to fast for the lil bikes to be out with the big bikes.. Thats how a buddy of mine broke both his wrists tripling through a rhythem section when a kid cut the track & pulled on right in front of him...
Another solution would be to allow kids there separate day or say after a certain time allow kids out on the track either before big bikes or after..
I have gone to tracks that have rotating organized practice & riding for 15 min every hour & a half sucks... i will not drive 2+ hrs to ride to sit all day for 4 15 min practice sessions...
granted a good 15-20 min ride is about all most can handle but after a 10-15 min break its time to ride again... or if you have a prob & have to pull off & fix it you may have to wait 2 hrs to ride...another prob with this is some riders have to ride both beg & adv big bike practice which makes it just as dangerous having a beg sneak into adv or vice versa...
Posted April 10, 2002 - 10:39 AM
I now know what MY parents felt.
The base problem here is physics. You cant see behind something. Flaggers are human. I usually ride at one of the most dangerous places on the earth in my opinion, Saddleback. Being in Orange county Ca. its surrounded by some of the fastest riders in the world. Ive seen several there, Duback and Albertyne to name just two. Saddleback has a pee wee track. Its for little guys just like poor jason. I dont believe the little guys should be out on the "main" tracks with guys that may or may not be riding like they are in a National. I dont agree with riding around behind a child to "gaurd" them. That puts TWO riders in the way. I understand the need to protect, as I have a 2 and 4 y/o at home myself. My 2 y/o has the moto gene too, dont know what to do about that just yet, moms gearing up for war. Thats another subject altogether. Its truley a hard call, as with all ACCIDENTS. No amount of regualtion and precaution will prevent all forseeable accidents. Doing anything that involves a motorized vehicle or speed in excess of 3 or 4 miles an hour can and is inherently dangerous. If the danger isnt something you can deal with, dont.
I hope Jason will be ok.
Posted April 10, 2002 - 11:35 AM
Firstly, riding on tracks during school hours should not involved adults sitting out and waiting for the 60's etc... they will all be in school... so Mark, although you are worried that you will be regulated into having compulsory sessions for the kids, at 7 in the morning, it is just ludicrous to imagine that the night shift guys are going to be in conflict with kids, so perhaps the tracks need to publish a schedule, like 50, 65 and 85cc practices two evening per week and on weekends... the kids don't want to run around for an hour at a time... give them a 20-30 minute block - surely riders can sit out for 20mins, work on your bike, have lunch, hydrate, call a loved one... I doubt that anyone wants to go riding around a track for 12 hours non-stop...
Another point is if you pay to ride on these tracks, and in turn the track ownners have to pay flaggers, them perhaps they could give credit to volunteer flaggers, and therefore you wouldn't have to pay for riding next time... or if the family aspect of it was emphasised, there would be mum's, brothers, uncles etc who could flag... even just for the little guys sessions...
Point three is that insurance is a minefield... someone will do the most stupid things, and couse you to come to grief, and then they will sue you for their stupidity... that is why it is nice to be protected by insurance, wether your own, or some umbrella scheme because of your affiliation or licence.
point four is that if the kids are with the big bikes, their confidence goes down, they do silly things... they don't have the experience to read the situation... but sometimes it seems that some adults have no maturity either...
People in Australia are free to buy a bike and ride it where and however they see fit - we have the same idiots here that the US does, - too loud, innapropriate riding practices etc... but to get on a track, you need to be licenced by the state or national body. To ride public land, you need to be road registered and have a normal road riding licence - you can just buy a bike and be on the fringe, but the fringe dwellers are thew one that Joe Public sees and that give us the bad name... and there fore the voters want their elected reps in Governemnt to do something about it...
I think we all agree that it is a complicated issue, with many facets, and perhaps no one solution - but we have to look after our own, that is for sure...
Posted April 10, 2002 - 12:34 PM
I just rode with my daughter for the first time last Saturday, I could relate.
Before we went out I gave her a run down on what to expect, I did stay back about 20-30' to block, we had fun. However when bikes started rolling in at the track the owner did and always splitts up the classes which I am thankful.
After reading the article I feel blessed!!!
Sorry to here about the accident and hope not to read about any more articles like this one.
Posted April 10, 2002 - 12:44 PM
Posted April 10, 2002 - 02:25 PM
The Sierra club is one of the worst. Nothing more than Nazi's.
Posted April 10, 2002 - 04:41 PM
First, I am self employed AND a single parent.
I have had medical insurance since 1991, and been self employed for 13 years. I have to provide insurance for my son too. We like to buy a new bike(s) every year, but if I can't make the ins payment (right at $200.00 a month) then it's NO bike AND NO Ride. I recently took out a 500k life policy, (right at $230.00 a year) and if I couldn't afford to pay it I would not ride either.
I figure if I can afford a new 426 and a new CR 125, I can afford the ins.
Second, if I were to get seriously injured, say break my neck, and in the process rack up 1 million in med bills (easy to do with a broken neck) and had NO ins, what am I going to do, and how would I pay it back since I am now paralyzed from the neck down?
Third, guess who pays for my medical bills if I can't pay? Right, you, via higher ins bills (premiums) and higher taxes!
I can't imagine having a bike and NOT having insurance. The cost of the bike is much more than the insurance.
Let me know if any of you want some info on insrance. I'm in Dallas, have great coverage, but hopefully Won't have to use it.
Last, I just had a racing buddy that was fatally injured Sunday. He was a responsible guy. He left a wife and 3 kids (all under 8 yrs old) but one thing he had. Insurance!
GodSpeed Stephen, My brother
Posted April 10, 2002 - 07:58 PM
Another thing is flaggers sometimes get caught up in the moment and feel compelled, sometimes by human decency, to help a hurt rider and abandon their post. I looked back and saw two cases of this in replys in this post so it must be common! A flagger crouched beside an injured rider is not doing his job.
This doesn't mean flaggers aren't useful, just that they aren't a silver bullet of safety.
Posted April 11, 2002 - 12:49 AM
As for the environazis, here is something that I stumbled upon in the news groups. It's about the sierra club and it's the rules they play by. Clearly after results. Maybe we need a smilar attitued when it comes to preventing the closing of our land.
"RULES OF ENGAGEMENT"
by Glen Besa, VA Chapter of the Sierra Club
* Play by their rules and you loose
The public participation process provided citizens is minmal. Participation
in this process alone will more than likely result in defeat.
* Set the agenda. Be Proactive (Hate that word).
Take the initiative. Don't wait for the opponents to act.
* Make the issue radioactive.
Make the issue so hot that it demands attention from the media and
* Target the politicians.
Because elected officials are the ultimate decision makers.
* The facts are not enough.
You can be right and still lose because politics are more important than
* The law is not enough.
It is OK to hire an attorney, but lawsuits will not usually give you a
victory. They can buy you time to organize.
* Find a way.
Don't let a politician tell you he has no authority. He is just blowing you
off. Make the politician take a position and actively support your cause.
* Have fun.
Humor is a potent weapon in a war for public opinion.
[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: sirthumpalot ]
Posted April 12, 2002 - 12:46 PM
I know it is off the original topic, but it scares me, and I don't even live in the US...
Be safe, be alert,
[ April 12, 2002: Message edited by: yamaha.dude ]
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