Mobile 1 vs. Yamalube 4


50 replies to this topic
  • Danimal521

Posted March 18, 2004 - 06:31 PM

#1

OK I know this had been hashed out many times. But I have a final debate! First off I am getting a 04 yz 450 this Monday. So I need to break in the motor. I planed on using Yamalube 4 during the break in period. Then because of availability and cost I was going to switch to Mobil 1. I thought Yamalube 4 was going to be crazy expensive but it is the same cost as Mobil 1. Other than I can get Mobile 1 at Wal-Mart at 2am in the morning, what are the benefits to run 100% synth? I know it is slicker, but it is that much better why no use it in the break in?

  • 426_Texan

Posted March 18, 2004 - 06:44 PM

#2

why no use it in the break in?

Because you need a little friction for the parts to seat together properly. A full synthetic is too slick for this.

  • gfergtr74

Posted March 18, 2004 - 06:53 PM

#3

I know that this is probably going to start a huge flame and I am sorry but think it is good info to have. The only reason why I won't run full synthetic in my bikes is because it does not take long for the synthetic oil to completely run off of the cylinder. Meaning that if your bike sits all week waiting to be ridden all of the oil will be off of the cylinder whereas with a regular oil there will still be substantial residue left on the cylinder walls. Now if you are lucky enough to ride a few times a week go for it. I would too but with the low oil pressure that most for stroke have I want as much lube on start up as possible. Just my 2 cents and like I said I am not trying to start a which oil is better flame post so go easy guys. :)

  • Ice67

Posted March 18, 2004 - 08:19 PM

#4

There is no evidence that "breaking in" with a full synthetic is harmful to your engine. It is just a myth that the rings need conventional oil to seat. Most high performance cars come with, and recommend 100% synthetic oil.

  • Dwight_Rudder

Posted March 18, 2004 - 08:43 PM

#5

If you want to run Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil , fine.
But never run an automotive oil in your bike. NEVER EVER A SL rated oil. It will affect the wet clutch and it has lower levels of stress additives ( Zince and Phosphorus ). Always look for the JASO rating of MA on the bottle. If it doesn't, pass on it.
Cher'o,
Dwight Rudder

  • TimFurryBalls

Posted March 18, 2004 - 08:52 PM

#6

There is no evidence that "breaking in" with a full synthetic is harmful to your engine. It is just a myth that the rings need conventional oil to seat. Most high performance cars come with, and recommend 100% synthetic oil.


I agree. Plus, isn't Yamalube a synthetic?

  • 426_Texan

Posted March 18, 2004 - 09:15 PM

#7

I'm not trying to change anyone's view on oil, I know this has already been beat to death time and time again on this site.

However... :) http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber. B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.
B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse honed cylinder wall. Piston rings are designed to take advantage of the pressure and us it to push the rings out against the cylinder wall. Therefore, as pressure builds during the compression stroke, the rings are pushed harder against the cylinder wall which aids in seating the rings.
The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will prevent any further seating of the piston rings. If glazing is allowed to happen break in will never occur. Also, if too little pressure (throttle) is used during the break-in period glazing will also occur.
Most people seem to operate on the philosophy that they can best get their money's worth from any mechanical device by treating it with great care. This is probably true, but in many cases it is necessary to interpret what great care really means. This is particularly applicable when considering the break-in of a modern, reciprocating engine.
For those who still think that running the engine hard during break-in falls into the category of cruel and unusual punishment, there is one more argument for using high power loading for short periods (to avoid excessive heat) during the break-in. The use of low power settings does not expand the piston rings enough, and a film of oil is left on the cylinder walls. The high temperatures in the combustion chamber will oxidize this oil film so that it creates glazing of the cylinder walls. When this happens, the ring break-in process stops, and excessive oil consumption frequently occurs. The bad news is that extensive glazing can only be corrected by removing the cylinders and rehoning the walls. This is expensive, and it is an expense that can be avoided by proper break in procedures.
We must achieve a happy medium where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. Once again, if glazing should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder, re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process over again.
We asked four top motorcycle engine builders what they do to ensure peak power output and optimum engine life. Here is a capsulation of their responses.
"If the wrong type of oil is used initially, or the break-in is too easy, rings and cylinders could (read will) glaze and never seal properly. A fresh cylinder wall needs some medium to high engine loading to get the piston rings to seat properly for good compression but make sure you don't lug or overheat the engine. Use high quality, low viscosity oil (Valvoline 30 weight), no synthetics, too slippery. If synthetics are used during initial break in the rings are sure to glaze over.

Again, believe as you will, I don't know what is fact or what is fiction myself. However, using a non-syn for breakin will definetly not hurt, and IF it does help some... :D

  • Ice67

Posted March 18, 2004 - 09:27 PM

#8

If synthetics are used during initial break in the rings are sure to glaze over.



I guess every Corvette, Porche, BMW, and Ferrari has glazed rings.

  • 426_Texan

Posted March 18, 2004 - 09:34 PM

#9

Like I said, I'm not going to attempt to change anyone's view on oil, I know better than that.

I'm not an automotive engineer nor a chemist.
:)

  • slappie

Posted March 19, 2004 - 06:22 AM

#10

I am getting ready to do my first oil change on my 04 450 too. So should I use Yamalube 4 or something else?

  • YZDAD1

Posted March 19, 2004 - 07:34 AM

#11

1. The proper amount of good quality clean oil is always preferred.

2. Yes, Corvettes and other vehicles are delivered new with Mobile 1 oil.

3. My personal experience with Indy Racing League engines (very tough on engine components) Mobil 1 15-50 "red cap" produced the best results, I.E.: engine component life.

4. My own personal Yamaha YZF engines always run on Mobil 1 15-50 and to date have had Zero oil/engine issues. One of those engines is a 2001 426 that is bored & stroked (bought new as a leftover in 2002) and was raced all season (2003) in this configuration and still has the ORIGINAL CLUTCH that was installed at the factory.

That said, the choice can & should be personal, real world data should not be ignored and if all else fails revert back to "Item #1" above. Just my opinion based on my experiences. :)

  • therapture

Posted March 19, 2004 - 11:15 AM

#12

why no use it in the break in?

Because you need a little friction for the parts to seat together properly. A full synthetic is too slick for this.



Simply not true. Non energy conserving synthetics are NOT "slippery-er" than dino oils. The additive package is what determines "slickness" more than anything. Synthetics typically have a higher film strength though.

Lots of new cars and trucks come factory filled with synthetics, these newer smaller, and higher revving engines have more in common with our bikes than most people think. They break in FINE, suffer no oil burning, and run for hundreds of thousands of miles. The old paradigms about oils are slowly changing as technology moves forward and materials improve, both in engines and oils.

I won't lie, I broke my bike in when new on conventional oil. But when I put the new piston in, had the engine mods done, I broke my bike in on full synthetic, Shell Rotella T 5w40. I suffered no blowby smoking after break in at all. Runs like a champ. As far as glazing goes, I doubt that all of those Vettes and foreign sports cars have glazed rings. :)

  • therapture

Posted March 19, 2004 - 11:16 AM

#13

There is no evidence that "breaking in" with a full synthetic is harmful to your engine. It is just a myth that the rings need conventional oil to seat. Most high performance cars come with, and recommend 100% synthetic oil.


You are right. :)

  • therapture

Posted March 19, 2004 - 11:26 AM

#14

If you want to run Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil , fine.
But never run an automotive oil in your bike. NEVER EVER A SL rated oil. It will affect the wet clutch and it has lower levels of stress additives ( Zince and Phosphorus ). Always look for the JASO rating of MA on the bottle. If it doesn't, pass on it.
Cher'o,
Dwight Rudder


Read on, and learn, more myth debunking going on here...

http://www.yft.org/t...fr/tech/oil.htm

You don't want to use oil rated "energy conserving"...automobile oils are FINE, hence the reason a "diesel oil" such as 15w40, 20w50, 5w40, 15w50, are great oils for bikes. They contain more of what you need, and none of the "slippery" components that will hurt a wet clutch. Of particular interest is this quote:

The Vanishing Zinc and Phosphorous

It is a fact than many SL oils now contain lower levels of ZDDP (the zinc/phosphorous extreme pressure additive) and that is a big concern to a lot of motorcyclists. ZDDP is a last resort protection against metal-to-metal contact. Whereas a few years ago the zinc level was typically 0.12% to 0.15% in SG automobile oils, some SL oils now have as little as 0.05%. However, this in itself may not be a problem since normal operation of a motorcycle on the street would never result in metal-to-metal contact any more than it would in your automobile. Remember these SL oils meet the most demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines (among others). And there is no reason to believe the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different.


I have alot more links too at home.....I have researched TONS of stuff about oils, being in the auto industry you have to know what you can, there are so many myths, wrong ideas, misinformation, etc., out there, I have to be forearmed when some nutty customer comes in ranting and raving, etc. :)

  • Vibeguy

Posted March 19, 2004 - 02:31 PM

#15

Lubrication is about one thing and one thing only VISCOSITY!

Bearing manufacturers specify viscosities required, not engine builders.

Synthetic oils have a higher VI or viscosity index than conventional mineral based oils. This means that a synthetic oil will provide the proper viscosity for your engine over a wider temperature range, flow better at lower temps and resist viscosity shearing, breakdown and thermal oxidation at higher temps.

Synthetic oils will also hold twice the dissolved water that a mineral based oil will. Dissolved water won't damage your engine, free and emulsified water will.

The EP additive ZDDP reacts under temperature and pressure to form a "soap like" surface that chemically bonds to metal surfaces to reduce adhesive wear caused by friction. Think this might cause a clutch to slip?

Most (if not all) common synthetic automotive oils start out with the same PAO (polyalfaolifin)base stock and blend in the additives to get the properties they desire, some even add purple coloring! They are all good oils, one is no better than the other.

At the speeds and temperatures we operate these engines at it's a "no brainer" to use synthetic oil. Remenber:

OIL IS ALWAYS CHEAPER THAN STEEL!

  • endurodog

Posted March 19, 2004 - 06:11 PM

#16

One point that is being way lost in the debate about break in is cars are delivered with engines broke in. Motorcycles are not.

  • therapture

Posted March 19, 2004 - 08:53 PM

#17

OK...you want more? Read on....

http://www.ducatimec...ca.com/oil.html

Claim - Motorcycle engines run hotter and rev higher than automobile engines, therefore requiring oils with more expensive, shear-stable polymers and additives than automotive oils.

Fact - This is one of those statements that was much more true in the 1970s than in the 1990s. The big, slow-revving Detroit automobile engines of the past have mostly been replaced with smaller, higher-revving four-cylinder and six-cylinder engines that have much more in common with their counterparts running on two wheels. Keeping pace with the development of the small, high-revving, automobile engine, automotive oils have improved considerably, to the point where the newer, SG-rated automotive oils are nearly identical to motorcycle oils.

In most cases where motorcycle oil producers show comparisons between their products and automotive oils, you will find them using SE- or SF-rated oils as the "automotive standard." These are oils that were designed and rated for the cars of 10 to 20 years ago. We have yet to see a motorcycle oil compared in testing to the 1990's standard, SG-rated premium automotive oils.






http://www.smartsynt...nical_facts.htm

Synthetics and Slipperiness in Relation to Roller Rockers and Wet Clutches
As a side note, we have received many reports of motorcycle shops telling customers that synthetic oil is so slippery that is causes roller bearings not to roll and will result in flat spots on the roller bearings. This is absolutely not true. Synthetic oil is no more “slippery” than petroleum oil. Synthetic oil is more uniform in molecular structure than a petroleum oil but it is not more slippery and will certainly not cause roller bearings to roll.




http://www.nightride...ch/oilinfo1.htm

The Motorcycle Performance Guide staff firmly believes in synthetic motor oils. The information contained in this paper helps explain why differences are seen between conventional motor oils and the synthetic oils. One of the most noticeable, is the ability of synthetic oils to maintain higher oil pressure at high air temperatures



  • Satch0922

Posted March 20, 2004 - 03:55 AM

#18

This thread needs to be hi-jacked and changed to "how often should I change my oil" !!! LOL Just kidding....now back to the regularly scheduled program.

BTW I use Mobil 1 red cap with no problems. I do change it every other ride.

Later...I gotta go load up!!!! Nocona MX in 3 hours!

  • triplejumper

Posted March 20, 2004 - 11:23 AM

#19

Ditto, I ran the Mobil to the tune of about 800 hours in a 2000 YZ426. Did a clutch every year(normal), idler gear broke(!#$$%@ woodruff key), top ends once a year, cams remained new looking, no biuld-up of any kind. Just changed oil every other ride. Currently I am running the Rottela T synthetic, in my SX, and plan on the same length of engine life(barring what I do to the machine :)).

  • motobark

Posted March 20, 2004 - 12:47 PM

#20

There is no evidence that "breaking in" with a full synthetic is harmful to your engine. It is just a myth that the rings need conventional oil to seat. Most high performance cars come with, and recommend 100% synthetic oil.



Here's some "evidence" for you guys...

Around '95 to '97 GM gave new Suburban owners Mobil 1 free for their first oil change. A lot of them stuck with the Mobil 1 after that. Some time after that we started getting a rash of oil consumption and missfire complaints. The fix was replacing the OIL FOULED PLUGS and going back to petroleum based oil for awhile. Guess what? Most all of those customers never came back with fouled plugs or oil consumption problems.

And yes, GM had and still has their fair share of engine problems with the Corvettes, before and after the Mobil 1 policy (mostly cam/lifter problems). Same with Cadillac (piston/ring problems).

I really don't see what the big deal is about running your first few hours on petroleum based oil, then switching to synthetic if you want.

John





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