BB Stroker build, info needed!

[InAquaVeritas]

Yes, another BB stroker build, like 95% of builds here, sorry guys and girls.

 

I have read through most of the builds I could find on here, and of course, I still have questions. I have asked a lot of questions on the various build threads and have gotten great answers, but to prevent me from hijacking threads and needing to dig through several pages to find the right thing, I'm going to put it all here.

 

First of all the bike:

Its a 2005 SM with a Leovinci X3 muffler, E header, rejetted and 3x3 mod.

It has almost 33k km's/20k m on it, with the original cilinder/piston as far as I know.

 

When I first got it, I probably hit a valve or something like that, because it started drinking oil. I didn't notice until it was too late and I ran it with very little oil for a little bit. Yes, I am aware of my stupidity....

 

In the last three oil changes the oil looks like it came out of a glitter factory, but with less and less big pieces in there with every oil change. It has a harder time starting and the choke has issues. On a steady throttle, around 6 to 7000 rpm, it surges and starts to backfire. There is much, much more vibration when riding and the mileage is down as well. When rolling and I pull the clutch in and shift down to first it sounds like I'm shifting with a sledgehammer, also shifts are rougher and louder. There's noise coming off the valve train as well. Too top it off I can feel there is less torque and hp when I pull away at the light or downshift. There's more, but these are the main things. This all makes me think that its all shot and it needs a full rebuild.

 

I'm going to be hosting bike trips as part of my business in 2017 and I really want to use this bike for that. Riding on twisty D-roads and maybe some light off roading will be the main thing, but I will need to do highways in between.

 

Why spend all this money instead of getting an RM/WR/XT? First of all I really like the look of the DR, its the perfect size for me and I won't be able to sell it and be able to buy something like that instead. The frame is a single backbone style frame and allows me to build a custom kit with a regular tank, which I will be doing as an exercise after I've done an English wheel course I will be taking. 

So any tips that come down to "buy a different bike" are fairly pointless.

 

What I want to achieve:

A DR that will cruise at 80 mph and is fun on D-roads, a little more horsepower and torque, while staying as reliable as possible (will never be like stock, I know). Not looking to do 3rd gear power wheelies, race R1's and Tesla's or anything like that. Also MPG is important, I'd rather have a little less power and save some fuel (I already ride 2000 km's/1200 miles a month and will be more)

 

My plan (based on needing to replace all major parts)

BB kit in the range of 440cc to 462cc (based on reading up on reliability here).

New big end, maybe a stroker depending on what advantages it gives me. 

Cams, maybe Stage 2, but might as well go for an E exhaust as it is almost identical to a HC Stage 2.

One piece valves (if these are shot)

Porting

ACT gearbox, keeping first of course. It feels like all the gears/forks are worn to bits, so will have to swap them out if thats the case. Same price as a new box almost.

Keihin 39mm (or similar) carb.

New stator, as this is 33k km/20k m old and need the reliability.

New clutch plates

Maybe FMF header

All bearings, rubbers, etc.

If need be new oil and water pump, depending on wear.

Extra cooling capacity if needed

It will be done by an off road specialist over here, won't be working on this myself.

 

Now for the questions:

- What are the chances of the head being shot as well? Are the cams in solid bearings or ball/needle bearings? 

- ACT gearbox, yes or no? Hearing different arguments with pro's and cons. Of course very much a personal preference, but always good to have input.

- Stock stroke or stroker? Will the stroker give me more torque with the longer travel (aside from the obvious larger capacity)?

- Carbs: I've read a lot about the 39mm Keihin being a good combo for the BB kits. What's the difference between a FCR and PWK? One's a slant slide, the other a flat? Any other carbs that will work well? The Lectron one looks insane, but is priced that way too.

- The Big Big Bore Kit question: which one to get? I've looked at several sizes, options and combo's, but can't really decide. 

 

I've heard a lot of good about the 462 stroker and 434 kit. I can't find these as a set from a supplier, which might seem like a minor thing, but my problem is that I live in the Netherlands. The bike scene, especially the SuperMoto's, is small here and I won't be able to get parts here. At least not to the extend I can in the US. The problem is shipping and customs: my Honda CB build cost me so much in shipping/customs that it almost ruined the whole build. I can't just send it back, have it reworked or have several options send to me. I'm shipping it all through a friend in the US and don't want to have him send me 50 separate boxes. This is the main reason for this thread: I want to have a degree of certainty before I start ordering tons of parts.

 

All the help, info, comments and telling my I got it all wrong are appreciated!

Edited September 7, 2016 by InAquaVeritas

[Built462]

Dont do act gears that will save you $6-700. Get hot rods +4 stroker crank kit on ebay with gaskets should be $400 cbk0165. CW 434 big bore i think thats $400 too. Get web cam cams grind#540 $500, new coated valves, springs, port and polish, (41mm fcr mx carb kit on thumper talk with r&d flex fuel screw and shorty choke $900), pingel pet cock $100, mrd if you want max power $500.

Lol start there.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Built462

[InAquaVeritas]

Why not do the ACT gears? Too long of a ratio? I will most likely need to replace most gears and shafts anyway, so some longer legs would be nice.

 

Read some good and bad news about the Hot Rods crank, how is yours holding up? Is it balanced well or did you have to get that done?

 

Do I really need a 41 mm if I'm not going for max power? First time I've seen the flex fuel screw, is it that much of a problem? A $100,- petcock      ?  but I guess their argument is pretty spot on: don't let your petcock by your main jet.

 

I'm keeping the Leovinci for now, really really don't have the money to get another exhaust. The rebuild is bad enough as it is. 

 

How's your 462 regarding reliability? I've read up on your build I think.

 

Thanks for all the info!

[Beta300REcat]

 new coated valve

 

Ferrea stainless valves don't need coating and work just fine with the stock seats.

[araitim]

Wide ratio doesn't include 1st gears so you will be keeping it whether you wanted to or not. I would definitely do new 1pc valves even if those look ok. For bore and stroke, i ahvr always been told to not go over +4 for the stroke and +4 for the bore. Those are said to be the limit, bigger than that your reliability go's down. That isn't personal experience, just what I have been to and what I have read. Sounds like you might have the hot cams hypnosis, those aren't ideal for what you are building. Go with Web cams like the gentleman above said. Also, since ice cube lowered their prices on would DEFINITLY look into their bore and stroke kit. Billet jugs with cylinder wall coating used in F1 cars, supposed to be superior. I would (and have done) a wide ratio. It is not uncommon (in experienced this) for a 470 bored and stroked drz to bust 4th and/or 5th. The wide ratio are made of stronger material. I am very happy with mine. So, let's brake this down.

Ice cube 485cc kit - $1200

Web cams- $500

Fcr41mx - $600

1pc valves- ~$100

High lift valve springs (you will need these of you go with big cams)~$140

Wide ratio- $600

MRD Zpro- ~$500

Someone that will do all the work and machine the case- $?????

I have a hotrod +4 crank and a je piston 94mm big bore. Fcr41mx (my old fcr39 wasn't doing it for me), wide ratio trans gears, mrd exhaust, old school hot cams(the biggest hot cams ever made for the Z and arent available anymore would like to go bigger but found a crazy deal on these for the time being), 1pc wiesco valves, port n polished head, race valve Springs to accept the cams. The bike is my daily driver. It is on the expressway at about 6000 rpm doing 80mph using 15/44 sprockets. It has a ton of grunt and humbles many of the 450 people almost daily. http://www.maxrpms.com/drz-ltz-kfx-dvx-485-ice-cube-big-borestroker/

[Beta300REcat]

Someone that will do all the work and machine the case- $?????

 old school hot cams(the biggest hot cams ever made for the Z and arent available anymore would like to go bigger but found a crazy deal on these for the time being),

 

 

I didn't think you had to machine the case until you went the 522cc route?

 

I also believe the stock DRZ springs are fine for the OSHC or the 536, which are the same profile.

 

Many stick with the OSHC intake and go with the 540 or the bigger still 539 exhaust.

[araitim]

I didn't think you had to machine the case until you went the 522cc route?

 

I also believe the stock DRZ springs are fine for the OSHC or the 536, which are the same profile.

 

Many stick with the OSHC intake and go with the 540 or the bigger still 539 exhaust.

When I talked to Web cams, they were the ones to strongly suggest switching Springs, then I noticed it on their page next to the individual cam descriptions (I felt like an idiot since I didn't notice it). The futrure plan was to switch to big web cams and since i was in there it was easy to switch then also, i have read (and was told on a phone conversation with HC, but it was a young guy and he said some other stuff that didn't add up in regards to other questions) that the OSHC arent available anymore due to spring bind and even though HC reccomended switching with those grinds people didnt and a big issue came of it.

The machine work, albeit very minimal, would be for the wide ratio gears.

[Beta300REcat]

When I talked to Web cams, they were the ones to strongly suggest switching Springs, then I noticed it on their page next to the individual cam descriptions (I felt like an idiot since I didn't notice it). The futrure plan was to switch to big web cams and since i was in there it was easy to switch then also, i have read (and was told on a phone conversation with HC, but it was a young guy and he said some other stuff that didn't add up in regards to other questions) that the OSHC arent available anymore due to spring bind and even though HC reccomended switching with those grinds people didnt and a big issue came of it.

The machine work, albeit very minimal, would be for the wide ratio gears.

 

IIRC, the DRZ springs are good to 10mm lift. I too heckled HC when the OSHC became unavailable. I think the guys name wad Brian and he insisted the new ST II (2047-2048) made more power than the 2003 OSHC. Politics, I guess. ?

 

They 'magically' found some 2003's on the shelf.................

[InAquaVeritas]

Araitim, thanks for the great tip on the Ice Cube cylinders! I'm talking to MaxRPMs right now about options and prices. Also thank for the other info, DR-pedia at work.

 

At the moment I'm looking at the 485 stroker kit from Ice Cube.

I got the HotCams recommended by Tim, from MaxRPMs, along with the stock springs. Anyone care to chime in on this? Again, not looking to double HP, want to overbuild this for longevity.

 

I found a Keihin FCR41 MX with hot start for €300,-, might have to go and pick that up asap.

 

The exhaust might happen in a later stage, will an open Leovinci 3X perform well? At the moment I have an E model header, with the SM back half of the pipe running into the 3X. Had a look at the MRD kit, it looks great but has a price to match. 

 

Does anyone have any info on this kit:

https://bpracingatv.com/product/complete-hotcams-suzuki-drz-400-470cc-big-bore-stroker-kit/

 

For $1300,- I'm pretty much set up with what I need, apart from the carb and maybe springs/shims. With the Ice Cube 485 option I would still need to get the piston, cams, all the bearings, seals and gaskets. Is the price difference related to a quality difference? From what I know CP is a good brand, it comes with a HR crank, HotCams and the cylinder is Nikasil plated as well. Just wondering if this is bored out instead of made for this size. My untrained eye spots a lot of wall between the water jackets and bore.

[araitim]

Araitim, thanks for the great tip on the Ice Cube cylinders! I'm talking to MaxRPMs right now about options and prices. Also thank for the other info, DR-pedia at work.

 

At the moment I'm looking at the 485 stroker kit from Ice Cube.

I got the HotCams recommended by Tim, from MaxRPMs, along with the stock springs. Anyone care to chime in on this? Again, not looking to double HP, want to overbuild this for longevity.

 

I found a Keihin FCR41 MX with hot start for €300,-, might have to go and pick that up asap.

 

The exhaust might happen in a later stage, will an open Leovinci 3X perform well? At the moment I have an E model header, with the SM back half of the pipe running into the 3X. Had a look at the MRD kit, it looks great but has a price to match. 

 

Does anyone have any info on this kit:

https://bpracingatv.com/product/complete-hotcams-suzuki-drz-400-470cc-big-bore-stroker-kit/

 

For $1300,- I'm pretty much set up with what I need, apart from the carb and maybe springs/shims. With the Ice Cube 485 option I would still need to get the piston, cams, all the bearings, seals and gaskets. Is the price difference related to a quality difference? From what I know CP is a good brand, it comes with a HR crank, HotCams and the cylinder is Nikasil plated as well. Just wondering if this is bored out instead of made for this size. My untrained eye spots a lot of wall between the water jackets and bore.

I was recommending against the hot cams for the big bore stroker. Web cams would be far superior. It seems you are well on your way to a remarkable bike. Keep us informed

[InAquaVeritas]

I know, that's why I was surprised to hear the HotCams are the best according to MaxRPM. What is your argument for Webb?

Anything on the BP racing kit?

It's going to be a strange build. I have a thing for using things for stuff it isn't meant for. Like using a DRZ as a tour bike for 8 months in the year, twice a month, instead of getting a BMW GS or something. Do the same with surfing, I enjoy taking boards for small waves out in big conditions, nice and sketchy!

[Beta300REcat]

I know, that's why I was surprised to hear the HotCams are the best according to MaxRPM. What is your argument for Webb?

 

 

 

I'd go E cams before Hotcams. Silly to go 485 and then use tiny cams. ?

Edited September 14, 2016 by Bermudacat

[InAquaVeritas]

I'd go E cams before Hotcams. Silly to go 485 and then use tiny cams. ?

Also an option I was looking at. From what I've read the Stage 2 HC are almost identical to the E cam (is this true?), but over here a new E cam is more expensive than a new HC cam...

I'm not biased towards HC, but I've read a lot more about them than the Webbs (because of pricing?) and got them recommended by MaxRPM that sells the Ice Cube kit.

 

Again, I'm open to all options regarding brands and application.

[Built462]

Web cams. Don't get HC. Just my opinion. $500 for grind #540 web cams. Worth it.

[Beta300REcat]

Also an option I was looking at. From what I've read the Stage 2 HC are almost identical to the E cam (is this true?),

 

Not really.

 

Intake is similar but the E exhaust has more lift and more duration.

[InAquaVeritas]

Web cams. Don't get HC. Just my opinion. $500 for grind #540 web cams. Worth it.

Also if I'm not looking to squeeze every last HP out of the engine? The build will be on a company bill, so the price difference is manageable. I'm just looking for the why behind the Web cams. Is it smoother power delivery or more low end grunt? The reason I brought up the HotCams was because I've read more about them than the Webs.

 

 

Not really.

 

Intake is similar but the E exhaust has more lift and more duration.

So strange that a stock E cam is more aggressive than an aftermarket cam made for more power....

Web over E cams?

[Built462]

I don't know the exact reason for web over hot cams bit it has to do with cylinder sweep and letting the motor breathe. Web cam let's it breathe and hot cams don't I'm pretty sure. I think people had head gasket issues with hot cams. Could be wrong.... where's noble? Lol

[albani]

I run hotcams on my 462/470. They're not *as good* as a webcams 540. I'll likely go to those next spring/summer. regardless, 14 thou miles on my setup and its still running. Its still more than plenty power for me too, haha.

 

 

FYI: 66.6mm stroke with a +4mm crank and 105mm rod length. (using abdc and stroke gives you the following:)

HCIIs will yield a 58.92mm effective stroke. leaving you with a swept volume loss of ~12%. 26.3* overlap. 

Edit288/540 will yield a 60.19mm effective stroke.   30* overlap. 

Edit2: 293/536 yields a 61.21mm effective stroke.   25* overlap. 

Edited September 19, 2016 by albani

[jjktmrider]

 

 

Does anyone have any info on this kit:

https://bpracingatv.com/product/complete-hotcams-suzuki-drz-400-470cc-big-bore-stroker-kit/

 

For $1300,- I'm pretty much set up with what I need, apart from the carb and maybe springs/shims. With the Ice Cube 485 option I would still need to get the piston, cams, all the bearings, seals and gaskets. Is the price difference related to a quality difference? From what I know CP is a good brand, it comes with a HR crank, HotCams and the cylinder is Nikasil plated as well. Just wondering if this is bored out instead of made for this size. My untrained eye spots a lot of wall between the water jackets and bore.

 

I got my kit from BPracing, though by talking to them they cut a deal on getting specific WebCams grind instead of Hot Cams and a few other things. They were happy to customize the "kit" to suit whichever way I wanted as far as where I wanted my power , which piston, cams , ect...Cost was lower as well .  I highly recommend working with them if not the Ice Cube which is the route I was planning till BP Racing came through with all the help.

 

You'll pay about $100- $150 less for the WebCams by going through them as well compared to going direct . I went with 288/288 grinds due to my wanting all my power down low rather than mostly topend , which is what the big cam give you . I am happy with the lowend I now have and it run great up high yet, though I know I gave up some with the cams , plus I have the ACT gears. I was planning some time to pick up a 536 and swap one of the 288's out to test the difference , but so far I'm just riding.

Edited September 19, 2016 by jjktmrider

[InAquaVeritas]

Thanks! That's really good news. Especially since BP supplies them with all the bearings included in the price. Regardless of whether or not it's paid for through the business, if the quality is good and it's way cheaper I'm always interested.

What did you get?