Choosing the PROPER motor oil.

[Hadiquddoos]

I try to buy Mobil 1 racing 4T 10w40 when I can, it says full synthetic and has JASO certification on the back and I figure I can't go wrong with Mobil 1. But when I'm running low on money I end up getting Valvoline ATV 10w40 it also has JASO certification but is not synthetic. Though I don't prefer it at a third of the price I use it sometimes.

[BOAB]

Over the years, it has been my experience, not opinion, that a good quality synthetic that is wet clutch compatible is what I should run.  There are 2 oils that are at the top of my list for a motorcycle with a wet clutch.  Amsoil synthetic dirt bike oil and Lucas synthetic motorcycle oil  Both are JASO. Both aren't cheap, but the performance is where I want it.  Both run very well with wet clutches, no slippage at all.  Both seem to lubricate very well, a good thing for an oil to do. ?   But, riding a big bore XR250R my bike runs hotter than a stocker due to the higher compression and thinner cylinder sleeve.  I seemed to be having problems with the bike running hot, so I got an oil temp gauge to monitor it.  I was getting too high temps and some foaming with the Amsoil, so I did a little research and decided to try Lucas.  I have always had good success with Lucas products so it was a no brainer to try it.  So far, so good with 20W-50 Lucas synthetic motorcycle oil.  It has been my observation, not opinion, that the bike is running quieter and cooler with the Lucas.  Oil temp has not exceeded 250* and performance is very good, the bike is not coming close to overheating, there is no drop in performance or pinging.  I change my oil and filter every 300 miles or so and have never had a problem.  My bottom line here, do your research and choose a good quality oil (I prefer synthetics) that meets the bike manufacturer's parameters.  Then keep an eye on how that oil is working in your bike.

Edited May 26, 2016 by cjjeepercreeper

[MotoTribology]

Now Im not trying to get too hairy here but I want to take this further. Here's a 2 nerdy topics that I'm having a hard time understanding, maybe someone can simplify.

I have heard there has been a big push away from phosphorous and zinc as a wear inhibitor replaced by moly. Why is this? Isnt the reduction of phosphorous bad for flat tappet motor cams and rockers? Are there particular brands that contain more phosphorous than most? Would too high of phosphorous in the blend be too corrosive? Are there trade offs involved with higher concentrations of Zinc and phosphorous? Why the big push away? Are oils with the highest concentration of these additives considered the best? Too much moly causes clutch slippage correct? Like that stuff is too slick to even lube properly.

Now regarding pre mix. I'm also particularly interested in motorex vs bel Ray 2 stroke oil. Ktm and Husqvarna both have essentially the same motor with a different airbox. The 2 oils are very similar but comparing the flash point bel Ray is much higher than motorex. Why is this? What exactly are the trade offs associated with low/ high flash point temps? I would assume motors that run harder/hotter need a higher flash point temp for proper lubrication at the cost of carbonization. I am under the impression that high flash temps run "dirty".

I have a basic understanding of what I'm looking at but I would like to know more about data sheets than making simple number comparisons.

Excessive ZDDP, which is the additive most people are referring to when discussing zinc and phosphorus, can lead to corrosion of steel. The number varies depending on who you speak with, but generally around 1600 ppm to 1800 ppm is just about the upper limit before it becomes a corrosion inducing additive. Phosphorus compounds are excellent for anti-wear, but they are only one option as there are many chemistries that are good for wear protection. ZDDP is just cheap, easy and very effective so it is very widely used. Part of the reason formulators are using it less are because of API restrictions due to catalyst poisoning and just overall exhaust pollution reduction. Molybdenum compounds can cause clutch slippage if not handled correctly in an oil formula, so being wary of them is not a bad idea (although some manufacturers use them well and formulate accordingly to avoid clutch problems). But Moly also has its own downsides. 

 

The big difference between the flash points of the Bel-Ray H1-R vs the Motorex Cross Power 2T is because of solvent content. The Motorex product has up to 30% solvent in the formula and the Bel-Ray product is all synthetic with no solvents. Hydrocarbon solvents severely reduce the flash point. That being said, flash point only tells you one aspect of the product. There is a lot more to consider though. unfortunately you are at the mercy of the lube manufacturers a lot of the time to discover what kind of specific performance properties are built into their products so it can be like pulling teeth to get this kind of info and even then, you have to trust them on their word.

[MotoTribology]

 I change my oil and filter every 300 miles or so and have never had a problem. 

 

Did you mean 3000 miles?

[BOAB]

Did you mean 3000 miles?

 

300 miles or so on my bike.  Sometimes goes a bit more.

[ToadalyCrazyCanadian]

If I care about something, it gets Royal Purple.

[Creeature]

interesting stuff

 

Unfortunately, as you can see, most people just don't care

LOL! Unfortunately I think you are correct. Smart execs know this and the entire industry suffers as a result..

[Creeature]

Excessive ZDDP, which is the additive most people are referring to when discussing zinc and phosphorus, can lead to corrosion of steel. The number varies depending on who you speak with, but generally around 1600 ppm to 1800 ppm is just about the upper limit before it becomes a corrosion inducing additive. Phosphorus compounds are excellent for anti-wear, but they are only one option as there are many chemistries that are good for wear protection. ZDDP is just cheap, easy and very effective so it is very widely used. Part of the reason formulators are using it less are because of API restrictions due to catalyst poisoning and just overall exhaust pollution reduction. Molybdenum compounds can cause clutch slippage if not handled correctly in an oil formula, so being wary of them is not a bad idea (although some manufacturers use them well and formulate accordingly to avoid clutch problems). But Moly also has its own downsides.

The big difference between the flash points of the Bel-Ray H1-R vs the Motorex Cross Power 2T is because of solvent content. The Motorex product has up to 30% solvent in the formula and the Bel-Ray product is all synthetic with no solvents. Hydrocarbon solvents severely reduce the flash point. That being said, flash point only tells you one aspect of the product. There is a lot more to consider though. unfortunately you are at the mercy of the lube manufacturers a lot of the time to discover what kind of specific performance properties are built into their products so it can be like pulling teeth to get this kind of info and even then, you have to trust them on their word.

This is the type of response I'm looking for guys FYI.

I know the zddp or lack there of has become an issue for flat tappet motors as far as pitting on cams wearing on rockers etc... So I take it moly supposed to be the replacement for this?

Question. So, the bel Ray is a fully POA stock? I assume the flash point increases the higher the synthetic content? What type of solvents are you speaking of with motorex? What's the reasoning? Manipulating flashpoint to become more trail friendly?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Casing-daily

[Piney Woods]

Gee whimmineesnickers an oil thread, don't think I have ever seen one before here on TT. ?

[Creeature]

Bro, ill sum it up, what does your shop manual recommend? Your query about oil is a broad statement, which invites all kinds opinions, ill leave it at that, and remember "oils well that ends well"📎oklahoma oil well_web-blog.jpg

I run EXACTLY what the manual calls for on my bike and have since I bought it. I'm not into pinching pennies on chems any more. I once was, but I've grown.

Im pretty particular about what I run after destroying a previous European engine (tapered/oval cylinders, burnt guides,pitted cams, worn rockers) before 75k miles. I changed my oils religiously every 5k and I thought I would run a "fully synthetic" rather than drop 15 bucks a quart on the oem stuff.

The engine at 75k was sucking oil like I've never seen. All its problems were related to using non ACEA spec API only rated "fully synthetic" oil. LOL

Come to find out the "fully synthetic" I had been using was a group 3 oil and cost me a complete rebuild. 5k plus repair.

Some guys like me have to go through an experience like that before they make a change.

So I guess the old "throw anything in there that looks like oil" is rhetoric. Completely wrong.

Maybe it won't spontaneously combust but come on guys, we're talking about pennies here in the big spectrum, stop being so cheap this is motorsports after all.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Casing-daily

[Still Bill]

I don't really know if being Jasco certified is important, but I do know (for a fact) that just because it says JASCO on the label doesn't necessarily mean that the oil is actually JASCO approved (or certified).  I used some AMSOIL product that mentioned JASCO on their label a couple years ago.  I had an oil-related failure.  The engine manufacturer said I voided the warranty by using non-JASCO oil.  AMSOIL was deceptive in their labeling - it said something like "meets JASCO specifications".  It did not say JASACO-certified.  They have to pay big buck to get that certification.  At the time, there were exactly ZERO AMSOIL products on the JASCO-certified list. 

[MotoTribology]

I don't really know if being Jasco certified is important, but I do know (for a fact) that just because it says JASCO on the label doesn't necessarily mean that the oil is actually JASCO approved (or certified).  I used some AMSOIL product that mentioned JASCO on their label a couple years ago.  I had an oil-related failure.  The engine manufacturer said I voided the warranty by using non-JASCO oil.  AMSOIL was deceptive in their labeling - it said something like "meets JASCO specifications".  It did not say JASACO-certified.  They have to pay big buck to get that certification.  At the time, there were exactly ZERO AMSOIL products on the JASCO-certified list. 

It's only about $3,500 per product to register with JASO and this price includes paying full price for testing at a laboratory such as SWRI. So it isn't all that pricey to do. Where it become difficult is that once you register your product, you need to go through all the hoops again if you want to make any kind of formula change. So many companies are not willing to handicap their formulating options like that. Either way, if the JASO logo is on the back, it should be registered. Regardless of that, if you want to check on an oil, JALOS publishes all complying products.

 

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV_LIST.pdf

[MotoTribology]

This is the type of response I'm looking for guys FYI.

I know the zddp or lack there of has become an issue for flat tappet motors as far as pitting on cams wearing on rockers etc... So I take it moly supposed to be the replacement for this?

Question. So, the bel Ray is a fully POA stock? I assume the flash point increases the higher the synthetic content? What type of solvents are you speaking of with motorex? What's the reasoning? Manipulating flashpoint to become more trail friendly?

It is not that moly is a replacement for ZDDP. They both serve their own functions and there are some cross-over properties between them. Againa, ZDDP is just one type of additive and the same goes for moly. There are hundreds of additive chemistries to mix and match to get working combinations for specific applications. It is hard to peg any one set-up for one application.

 

The Bel-Ray has no PAO in it, it is all ester base stock. The full name of the product is H1-R Racing 100% Synthetic Ester 2T Engine Oil. The SDS for the H1-R is pretty vague because the esters aren't considered hazardous so they aren't required to report it. According to the literature, the H1-R is extremely clean burning and leave no deposits. A lot of people use it and say the same thing.

 

The flash point can just go up or down from different base stocks regardless of synthetic/petroleum origins. Some are just more volatile than others and some are more flammable than others. The more volatile and flammable they are, the lower the flash point will be. From the Motorex SDS it lists hydrocarbon distillates, so I would assume it is very light oil or a mineral spirits type of solvent.

 

The reasoning for using a solvent like mineral spirits relates both to economy and performance. First, solvents like mineral spirits are very cheap and make good fillers because they can actually serve a function. Solvents make mixing a premix much easier (although it really isn't difficult to mix a solvent free 2T oil either). The solvent should increase the combustibility of the oil portion so it could possible assist in increasing power gained from combustion, but there are a lot of other factors that go into this so that aspect is a small player in the grand scheme of things. The solvent can also help to keep deposits down in a well formulated product. Conversely, in a not so well formulated product it can contribute to deposits. Because it is so volatile it more easily will pull heat from parts as it volatilizes. This is all relative since the oil volumes are so small, but all of these things do have some effect.

[michaelangus]

I've been using Rotella T6 5w-40 and here's why,

Reasonably priced and meets the requirements for my bike as per Honda. API-SM and JASO-MA

 

Below is a copy and paste from my online owner's manual:

Oil Recommendation: API classification SG or higher except oils labeled as energy conserving on the circular API service label

Suggested oil* Pro Honda GN4 4-stroke oil or an equivalent motorcycle oil*

Viscosity (weight) SAE 10W-30

JASO T 903 standard MA

[Creeature]

I've been using Rotella T6 5w-40 and here's why,

Reasonably priced and meets the requirements for my bike as per Honda. API-SM and JASO-MA

Below is a copy and paste from my online owner's manual:

Oil Recommendation: API classification SG or higher except oils labeled as energy conserving on the circular API service label

Suggested oil* Pro Honda GN4 4-stroke oil or an equivalent motorcycle oil*

Viscosity (weight) SAE 10W-30

JASO T 903 standard MA

Check out this UOA on Rotella t. They're saying it shears like a mug. Like quickly. Is Rotella ISO rated?

This on on a spyder with 3k miles on the oil though. I'm sure it's fine if you change oil a lot

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3476275/UAO__Can_Am_3000_mi_RotellaT#Post3476275

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/

Edited May 26, 2016 by Casing-daily

[William1]

I run EXACTLY what the manual calls for on my bike and have since I bought it. I'm not into pinching pennies on chems any more. I once was, but I've grown.

Im pretty particular about what I run after destroying a previous European engine (tapered/oval cylinders, burnt guides,pitted cams, worn rockers) before 75k miles. I changed my oils religiously every 5k and I thought I would run a "fully synthetic" rather than drop 15 bucks a quart on the oem stuff.

The engine at 75k was sucking oil like I've never seen. All its problems were related to using non ACEA spec API only rated "fully synthetic" oil. LOL

Come to find out the "fully synthetic" I had been using was a group 3 oil and cost me a complete rebuild. 5k plus repair.

Some guys like me have to go through an experience like that before they make a change.

So I guess the old "throw anything in there that looks like oil" is rhetoric. Completely wrong.

Maybe it won't spontaneously combust but come on guys, we're talking about pennies here in the big spectrum, stop being so cheap this is motorsports after all.

I'd of never gone that long on a sport bike engine. 2,000 miles maybe.

You have to realize, the oil in most engines, not only has to survive and lubricate the pistons and cams but in most bikes the trans as well. Two terrible environments. Acids and high temps from combustion and tremendous shearing forces from the gears. On a small bore 4S, I get feel the oil degrading after about 800 miles or ten run times hours. The shifting starts to get notchy. Those bikes where the oil in the trans is separate from those in the pistons, can use more specific types of oils designed to better survive and can go longer between changes.

If you have an engine with a wet clutch, no moly or 'high slip' additives!!!!

 

Decent quality, inexpensive oil, changed often, is much better than expensive oil and changed rarely. Oil wears out. A $1,500 pair of sneakers last about as long as a $100 pair.

[Creeature]

I'd of never gone that long on a sport bike engine. 2,000 miles maybe.

You have to realize, the oil in most engines, not only has to survive and lubricate the pistons and cams but in most bikes the trans as well. Two terrible environments. Acids and high temps from combustion and tremendous shearing forces from the gears. On a small bore 4S, I get feel the oil degrading after about 800 miles or ten run times hours. The shifting starts to get notchy. Those bikes where the oil in the trans is separate from those in the pistons, can use more specific types of oils designed to better survive and can go longer between changes.

If you have an engine with a wet clutch, no moly or 'high slip' additives!!!!

Decent quality, inexpensive oil, changed often, is much better than expensive oil and changed rarely. Oil wears out. A $1,500 pair of sneakers last about as long as a $100 pair.

Yeah you right about all this stuff. The oci called for 9k intervals so I thought I was doing good. The engine "was" a big twin but I'm sure it mulches oil the same if not worse than a 4 cyl. I think your last sentence makes a lot of sense that even the pricey oils degrade in about the same amount of time. The pricey stuff may perform better during that short amount of time though

Edited May 26, 2016 by Casing-daily

[problem_child]

LOL! Unfortunately I think you are correct. Smart execs know this and the entire industry suffers as a result..

Question as you seem to know a lot about oil...what would you run in a crf250r that has separate engine and tranny oil?

I've been running hp4m in the engine and usually 5w40 rotella in the tran recently. I recently ran valvolene dex merc in the trans when I was in a pinch and it shifted very well but I'm not really sure if it is safe.

[ToadalyCrazyCanadian]

I'd of never gone that long on a sport bike engine. 2,000 miles maybe.

You have to realize, the oil in most engines, not only has to survive and lubricate the pistons and cams but in most bikes the trans as well. Two terrible environments. Acids and high temps from combustion and tremendous shearing forces from the gears. On a small bore 4S, I get feel the oil degrading after about 800 miles or ten run times hours. The shifting starts to get notchy. Those bikes where the oil in the trans is separate from those in the pistons, can use more specific types of oils designed to better survive and can go longer between changes.

If you have an engine with a wet clutch, no moly or 'high slip' additives!!!!

Decent quality, inexpensive oil, changed often, is much better than expensive oil and changed rarely. Oil wears out. A $1,500 pair of sneakers last about as long as a $100 pair.

Chokey has a pretty awesome write up about oil degradation and contact with moving parts somewhere in the Kawasaki threads. I probably change oil more than needed, but I also don't have a single thread about a failure due to not changing oil.... except the one about accidentally using the wrong weight and having a head deprived of oil

[William1]

Yeah you right about all this stuff. The oci called for 9k intervals so I thought I was doing good. The engine "was" a big twin but I'm sure it mulches oil the same if not worse than a 4 cyl. I think your last sentence makes a lot of sense that even the pricey oils degrade in about the same amount of time. The pricey stuff may perform better during that short amount of time though

Unfortunately, 'owners manuals' are often not written specifically for the machine. They are typically very generic and the oil change frequencies often are far  from properly applicable to the machine. As you discovered, long change intervals while saving a little in oil change expense cost more in the long run due to catastrophic failure. I have never had a oil related engine failure in my life. I change the oil every year, even if the engine is never run. A mx bike, every full day of riding/ten hours/1,000 miles, which ever comes first. Sport bike, every 2,000 miles. Car, between 5,000 and 7,500 miles (no gears that eat oil) and can survive that no problem. Oil filters either every change (in a car going 7,500 miles) or every filth change (on a engine run just a few hours a year. MX bikes, I'll go five changes between filters. There is never any debris in them even then. Though the guys that ride the clutch and have to replace a clutch every oil change, probably ought to do a filter too. I have yet to ever wear out a bike clutch. I use wheelspin instead.....

 

Chokey has a pretty awesome write up about oil degradation and contact with moving parts somewhere in the Kawasaki threads. I probably change oil more than needed, but I also don't have a single thread about a failure due to not changing oil.... except the one about accidentally using the wrong weight and having a head deprived of oil

Yup, Chokey has done some well written oil and gasoline threads.