Tube vs. tubeless

[temporarily_locked]

i love to keep hearing how "California has nothing technical"

like water does not cut valleys, and there aren't any rocks....

have you ever been to Johnson valley?

The tropics are a completely different ball game, as is the PNW

[baconispower]

on a 450 and above i would just run UHD(4mm) tubes if you don't want to worry about flats, i ran them in my 500 exc, and several past bikes prior to that and never had any issues. i even went from seattle to cabo with UHD tubes in my ktm 950 and did not get a single flat.   they are slightly heavier than a regular or hd tube, but the peace of mind is a beautiful thing when you are out in the middle of nowhere and don't want to worry about it.

 

i see no benefit to tubliss outside of being able to run super low pressures without the worry of spinning a tube, some guys run 2 rim locks but seems overkill, the weight saving for tubliss is negligible over hd tubes and you can still rupture an inner tube and be stuck, if you do that far from home you are screwed unless you carry additional bladders or tubes anyway...  there is no patching an inner bladder for the 100psi requirement.

 

good luck.

[EnglertRacing]

Yeah I here a lot of that too about Ca.

 

But going back to your 13psi thing...I mean what's the point of running Tubliss? 

 

since i'm not a low pressure fan

here are the NON low pressure benefits of tubliss in the order of importance

 

1 - No worries about pinch flats  -  I like hitting rock gardens with agression ( For sheets and giggles i like to turn everything i can find into a jump including nasty rocks because i think its fun and good practice for times where you have NO CHOICE but to hit something)

 

2 - punctures can be repaired with a tire plug - works great, have one in there right now

you can ride on a flat - I did 50+ miles with a flat tire at the beginning of the year  and i ruined the tire while i was at it, but not the rim, and even better my ride was not ruined    ( did not carry a tire plug kit or inflation system since i have had so little trouble with these since 2010)

 

3 - Less unsprung mass, and rotating weight - maybe - maybe---- I also run pirelli tires since they ARE lighter, but they have a soft carcass

its 3rd on the list since the weight difference from this to a uhd tube is honestly about the same, but it is closer to the axle, so there is a smaller MOI

 

4 - I like fancy SHT...    ?

 

last,

the story about a guys tire coming off,

like that cant happen with a tube???? Come on....

but for that to happen you have to puncture the bladder. which should be pretty difficult. 

I did 50 miles of fast single track in barstow with lots of rocks chasing some old desert racers...

tire didn't come off, 

They couldn't believe i hadn't destroyed the rim....

so back at the truck they were asking about it, and a couple chickens had gone back to the truck after mile 25  (slightly after i got the flat), when they heard us talking about it they asked if i had limped it home, and the guy that had been riding behind me was like "no he was hauling ass the hole time"  So everyone wanted to go inspect my wheel lol

i think i sold 3 or 4 tubliss setups that day lol

 

 

maybe the trials tire, was "softer" enough that it allowed something to pinch the bladder, i would expect dented rim sidewalls as well

[turbo dan]

I don't think most tube type tires are designed to run at such low pressures, trials tires being the exception.  2-5 would hardly be different than running it dead flat.

[EnglertRacing]

I don't think most tube type tires are designed to run at such low pressures, trials tires being the exception.  2-5 would hardly be different than running it dead flat.

 

below 10 i can feel the tire fold over

 

when its at 1 or 2lbs or flat

it turns like  

[GHILL28]

Theoretically, the tire is softer with tubeless versus tubes at the same PSI. Less wall or carcass for support without the tube.

You would be amazed how much these tires move around on the rim at low pressures. The tubeless core is a game changer at low psi. The bead does NOT move.

[EnglertRacing]

Theoretically, the tire is softer with tubeless versus tubes at the same PSI. Less wall or carcass for support without the tube.

You would be amazed how much these tires move around on the rim at low pressures. The tubeless core is a game changer at low psi. The bead does NOT move.

 

full circle bead lock

[GHILL28]

The idea behind it is that you're never EVER going to be able to pull the bead away from the edge of the rim into the low center under hard cornering.  If you're riding fast and hitting corners at all, this happens REALLY easily with tubes, except at the rimlock.

 

Ever wonder why you're picking branches, dirt, leaves, and random other shit out of your rim and tire once you remove it?  That's why.

 

A tubed system also reduces the volume available in the tire under cornering, and pulling away from the edge of the rim leaves it exposed.  PING.

 

That's also why lower pressures don't completely handle like shit with the tubeless core in place.  It changes the entire dynamics of the tire system.  It's not just a "get rid of tubes" thing.  Once you install one and see how it works and then ride it it's easy to understand.

[LSHD]

below 10 i can feel the tire fold over

when its at 1 or 2lbs or flat

it turns like

Really depends on the tire. M404 was great at 5 psi. X30 is way squirrely at 6.

Nuetech will give you good recommendations for tires.

[hawaiidirtrider]

since i'm not a low pressure fan

here are the NON low pressure benefits of tubliss in the order of importance

 

1 - No worries about pinch flats  -  I like hitting rock gardens with agression ( For sheets and giggles i like to turn everything i can find into a jump including nasty rocks because i think its fun and good practice for times where you have NO CHOICE but to hit something)

 

2 - punctures can be repaired with a tire plug - works great, have one in there right now

you can ride on a flat - I did 50+ miles with a flat tire at the beginning of the year  and i ruined the tire while i was at it, but not the rim, and even better my ride was not ruined    ( did not carry a tire plug kit or inflation system since i have had so little trouble with these since 2010)

 

3 - Less unsprung mass, and rotating weight - maybe - maybe---- I also run pirelli tires since they ARE lighter, but they have a soft carcass

its 3rd on the list since the weight difference from this to a uhd tube is honestly about the same, but it is closer to the axle, so there is a smaller MOI

 

4 - I like fancy SHT...    ?

 

last,

the story about a guys tire coming off,

like that cant happen with a tube???? Come on....

but for that to happen you have to puncture the bladder. which should be pretty difficult. 

I did 50 miles of fast single track in barstow with lots of rocks chasing some old desert racers...

tire didn't come off, 

They couldn't believe i hadn't destroyed the rim....

so back at the truck they were asking about it, and a couple chickens had gone back to the truck after mile 25  (slightly after i got the flat), when they heard us talking about it they asked if i had limped it home, and the guy that had been riding behind me was like "no he was hauling ass the hole time"  So everyone wanted to go inspect my wheel lol

i think i sold 3 or 4 tubliss setups that day lol

 

 

maybe the trials tire, was "softer" enough that it allowed something to pinch the bladder, i would expect dented rim sidewalls as well

Riding on a flat knobby isn't a problem.. This is a trials tire that the guy with the flat had.. sidewall rolls over completely collapsing and can come off easy.. It's why some rather not use a trials tire here.. except maybe with a tubliss if it doesn't go flat... and the guy riding was riding super smooth with throttle and clutch and picking smooth lines trying to ride out without the tire coming off..He was with the other friend of ours that had a trials tire that they filled with big vines to keep the trials tire on the rim on another ride so he knows what happens. It was on the verge of coming off the whole time as he was riding out . I was riding behind him and we only rode maybe a mile or 2 to get out.. but on technical sections . There was no dented rim and the tubliss had a couple of rides on it. Like I said before.. When I have told this story to others locally guys have said it's super rare for the tublis to go flat... I'm just giving my experience from what I've seen so far. I've just run heavy duty tubes for years with knobbies and almost never have had problems..and if it goes flat I just ride out. Very low tire pressure in tight technical in our super slippery mud is just what we have to do to just get out of areas where we ride. There is simply no getting out of some sections on 10 lbs or even 7 lbs of pressure.. There is just not enough traction..it's standing still with the rear wheel turning.. It still takes technique to move through obstacles but at least there's enough traction to get through. so it's 5lbs and less down to 2 or 3 etc sometimes for certain trails.. In dry 7 is normal here.. when it's wet.. at least 5lbs otherwise you are staying way back in some muddy valley. It's just different terrain and riding. It of course wouldn't work where you ride or lots of others in other places. There's a bunch of people that swear by tubliss here.. the bead is locked all the way around with tubliss.. if it does't go flat.. so guys run low pressure with tubliss. I'm just sharing my experience so far.. I'm running a heavy duty tube.. the closest thing to a trials tire I run is an equilibrium tire I'm running on my 350rr and that has a stronger bead and sidewall than a straight trials.. it's a hybrid tire so I don't think I'll have a problem with tires coming off.

Edited October 15, 2016 by hawaiidirtrider

[moto9]

I've ridden Johnson valley, McCain, valley, Joshua tree, big bear, superstition mt, just about every hot spot in the dez including glamas....south of the border, sky ranch.

Raced the parker 400, Barstow to vegas, king of the deasert, trans cal, cmc, crc, rem, world vet championship, 24 hours of glen helen,

I'm pretty familiar with California's terrain, but the lack of traction still doesn't compare to a wet season in the jungle trails of Hawaii.

[hawaiidirtrider]

I've ridden Johnson valley, McCain, valley, Joshua tree, big bear, superstition mt, just about every hot spot in the dez including glamas....south of the border, sky ranch.

Raced the parker 400, Barstow to vegas, king of the deasert, trans cal, cmc, crc, rem, world vet championship, 24 hours of glen helen,

I'm pretty familiar with California's terrain, but the lack of traction still doesn't compare to a wet season in the jungle trails of Hawaii.

Wow.. I wish I got to ride some of those races.. nice! .. yea I only get second hand information of how riding is compared to Hawaii from those travelling here to ride and some locals going away and doing some races in a variety of places in the mainland. .. The biggest thing I've heard in comparison has to do with so much more traction in riding areas away from Hawaii.. I can't say. I haven't ridden.. just going from second hand word of mouth experience.. I am jealous that so many can just jump in their truck or van and drive to a variety of races and terrain in a variety of states and get to experience that.. That's one part of living on an island that is limiting.. but then I'm just happy to just get to go riding any way I can.

Edited October 15, 2016 by hawaiidirtrider

[moto9]

Ya, it was an awesome time, lots of riding ares close to home one area a lot of pros frequented was palm avenue, south San Diego.

Some of crusty demons of dirt was filmed there.

In the hay day I was racing mx 4 days a week.

Wednesday night at perris

Friday's at ascot

Saturday....take your pick, I usually raced rem.

Sunday...again take your pick, star west, glen helen, 50+ tracks to choose from.

Had gigged up box van and hit the road.

Winter dez trips with friends were epic trips.

I will say that my yearly trip to crested bute is fantastic, the trails are some of the best I've ridden.

We rent a house on a large stream and fly fish for trout.

We ride right out of the garage and hit one of several trail heads.

You have to get off island and experience an epic ride at least once in you life.

I've been researching a ride in Canada, where your dropped off by bush plane and ride for several days back to base camp.

[hawaiidirtrider]

Ya, it was an awesome time, lots of riding ares close to home one area a lot of pros frequented was palm avenue, south San Diego.

Some of crusty demons of dirt was filmed there.

In the hay day I was racing mx 4 days a week.

Wednesday night at perris

Friday's at ascot

Saturday....take your pick, I usually raced rem.

Sunday...again take your pick, star west, glen helen, 50+ tracks to choose from.

Had gigged up box van and hit the road.

Winter dez trips with friends were epic trips.

I will say that my yearly trip to crested bute is fantastic, the trails are some of the best I've ridden.

We rent a house on a large stream and fly fish for trout.

We ride right out of the garage and hit one of several trail heads.

You have to get off island and experience an epic ride at least once in you life.

I've been researching a ride in Canada, where your dropped off by bush plane and ride for several days back to base camp.

Sounds awesome.. I don't think I can pull that off under current conditions.. but never say never I guess..I should keep an open mind to make things happen.. I'm still working on just getting fit enough and strong enough to do Kauai Hare and Hound next year.. This year would have been good but not ready. I probably should have gone with the other guys from here to do TKO in 2012. That looks like my kind of race.. or one I'd enjoy... gotta work on fitness.. step by step.. but it sure sounds awesome riding in so many great different places. II heard there's a hare and hound in early December this year over here at Kahuku.. I'll verify the date as the initial date was something like the 8th which makes no sense since it's like a thursday or something.. I'll post it up in case you want to come down to race. I have something to shoot for to train.. and you know it will be ugly and muddy in early Dec. Early talk is that it will be 3 different loops sequential and just have to race to get through by a certain cutoff time.. not wanting it to be like Ride or Die with the first place guy coming in in 9 hrs.. at least that's the early talk at least. I came in in 7 hrs at the Ride or Die Redemption race.. and barely made the cutoff.. only 4 of us came in with all their checks and we rode B.. only a few finished the A;; added course with all their checks.. maybe 2 or 4 guys?.. and the Grayson Gonsalves from Kauai came in 9 hrs for first.. What an animal.

Edited October 15, 2016 by hawaiidirtrider

[mtdirtbag]

on a 450 and above i would just run UHD(4mm) tubes if you don't want to worry about flats, i ran them in my 500 exc, and several past bikes prior to that and never had any issues. i even went from seattle to cabo with UHD tubes in my ktm 950 and did not get a single flat.   they are slightly heavier than a regular or hd tube, but the peace of mind is a beautiful thing when you are out in the middle of nowhere and don't want to worry about it.

 

i see no benefit to tubliss outside of being able to run super low pressures without the worry of spinning a tube, some guys run 2 rim locks but seems overkill, the weight saving for tubliss is negligible over hd tubes and you can still rupture an inner tube and be stuck, if you do that far from home you are screwed unless you carry additional bladders or tubes anyway...  there is no patching an inner bladder for the 100psi requirement.

 

good luck.

I have to dispute the last comment, I picked up a nail crossing over an old lookout site - eventually it found it's way thru the liner and into the inner tube. We were 20 miles from the truck, broke the tire down, patched the tube and continued the ride. I still have it for an emergency, but did replace it later. No loss of pressure during the time from fixing it to replacement other than the normal minimal loss one gets between rides in a week or so.

[outdoorfan]

Ya, I understand the purpose and function better now. Thanks guys

[lowmass]

I get pinch flats both front and rear even running 15 psi. The Tubliss system allowed me too run 12 -13. Much better behaved tire than at 15.

 

Also had occasional tire slip pulling valve stem apart. The Tiubliss  sytem eliminated this issue completly.

Edited October 18, 2016 by lowmass

[beezer]

I've been using Tubliss for years and the only issue I've ever had is that some tires seal up well and some don't.

 

I always check my air pressure before I go out and it's almost always low.

 

I don't want to use Slime.

[dyrtmon]

I've been using Tubliss for years and the only issue I've ever had is that some tires seal up well and some don't.

 

I always check my air pressure before I go out and it's almost always low.

 

I don't want to use Slime.

 

I've had front tires that don't want to seal for some reason, and my experience is that slime helps with that. Have seen slime weep from the bead, but pressure is fine even while sitting for a cuppa weeks.

[Chas_M]

I have also been using Tubliss for years and find that the Tubliss system holds air pressure as well as or better than tubed tires.  I use Slime primarily as the installation lubricant.  

 

How much air pressure are you losing between checks?  What is the time interval between checks?