Does your 2012-1215 start well, and what did you do to achieve this?

Yamaha WR450F

53 replies to this topic
  • JDLowrance

Posted March 31, 2016 - 04:41 AM

#41

If I'm not mistaken, the valve cover on the WR is magnesium. Been a while since I've been under the tank so possibly wrong but doubt it.

Edited by JDLowrance, March 31, 2016 - 04:42 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted April 04, 2016 - 07:50 AM

#42

As far as electric start on most bikes, I don't get it.   Half the KTMs I ride with don't estart well.   The Sherco 300 estarts terrible.  My WR was terrible.  It is honestly faster to flip out the kickstart lever and give it a kick or two than use estart on a lot of these bikes.

 

 

Well, get this:  My '12 WR450F which I bought last year was as horrible an e-start bike as any WRF not setup correctly.

Preowner suggestes "holding out hot start slightly" (= be in neutral) then she'll fire up. :banghead:

 

In summer '15, first vacation, it typically took three button pushes in neutral and a prayer to e-start her.

Flipping out the kick start was very tempting, and probably time saving.

 

 

 

estart is a waste if you have to find neutral to use it, imho.

absolutely correct.

 

As soon as I did what I always did to both my WR450F'03 or my buddy did to the KTM(!) 450EXC of his, namely adjust idle mixture correctly,

all these bikes including my '12 WR450F EFI fire up in gear on first push.

And swapping in a YZ'06 ex. cam didn't affect that capability at all,after I trimmed its decomp hump to exactly WR450F specs.

 

What problem do you guys have "getting this" ? 

Do you assume your e-start bike cames with self-tuning idle mixtrue ?

 

It's as plain and as simple as making any other bike ever produced e-start well:  JET IT RIGHT!


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, April 04, 2016 - 07:52 AM.


  • thejimmian

Posted April 28, 2016 - 01:31 PM

#43

Well, get this:  My '12 WR450F which I bought last year was as horrible an e-start bike as any WRF not setup correctly.

Preowner suggestes "holding out hot start slightly" (= be in neutral) then she'll fire up. :banghead:

 

In summer '15, first vacation, it typically took three button pushes in neutral and a prayer to e-start her.

Flipping out the kick start was very tempting, and probably time saving.

 

 

absolutely correct.

 

As soon as I did what I always did to both my WR450F'03 or my buddy did to the KTM(!) 450EXC of his, namely adjust idle mixture correctly,

all these bikes including my '12 WR450F EFI fire up in gear on first push.

And swapping in a YZ'06 ex. cam didn't affect that capability at all,after I trimmed its decomp hump to exactly WR450F specs.

 

What problem do you guys have "getting this" ? 

Do you assume your e-start bike cames with self-tuning idle mixtrue ?

 

It's as plain and as simple as making any other bike ever produced e-start well:  JET IT RIGHT!

wrf-rowdy:

 

do you have any recommendations for people without access to AF monitoring systems to correctly set the CO value? I agree with you that cracking the throttle is not all it takes because my bike has been hard starting through the button since day 1. i have the diag tool and have tried +/- values with some success but still don't have a good value for starting all the time with 1 button push.

 

could a smog station be useful for actually measuring the CO output and if so do you have a recommended %CO based on a tailpipe sniffer?


Edited by thejimmian, April 28, 2016 - 01:32 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted April 28, 2016 - 02:37 PM

#44

Well, get this:  My '12 WR450F which I bought last year was as horrible an e-start bike as any WRF not setup correctly.

Preowner suggestes "holding out hot start slightly" (= be in neutral) then she'll fire up. :banghead:

 

In summer '15, first vacation, it typically took three button pushes in neutral and a prayer to e-start her.

Flipping out the kick start was very tempting, and probably time saving.

 

 

absolutely correct.

 

As soon as I did what I always did to both my WR450F'03 or my buddy did to the KTM(!) 450EXC of his, namely adjust idle mixture correctly,

all these bikes including my '12 WR450F EFI fire up in gear on first push.

And swapping in a YZ'06 ex. cam didn't affect that capability at all,after I trimmed its decomp hump to exactly WR450F specs.

 

What problem do you guys have "getting this" ? 

Do you assume your e-start bike cames with self-tuning idle mixtrue ?

 

It's as plain and as simple as making any other bike ever produced e-start well:  JET IT RIGHT!

 

So which jet do you suggest I change on the FI bike to make it start well



  • tomerb

Posted April 28, 2016 - 02:49 PM

#45

wrf-rowdy:

 

do you have any recommendations for people without access to AF monitoring systems to correctly set the CO value? I agree with you that cracking the throttle is not all it takes because my bike has been hard starting through the button since day 1. i have the diag tool and have tried +/- values with some success but still don't have a good value for starting all the time with 1 button push.

 

could a smog station be useful for actually measuring the CO output and if so do you have a recommended %CO based on a tailpipe sniffer?

 

 

I took mine to my dyno friend and he said sticking o2 sensor in the muffle would not get a accurate reading because of too much revision. He said I would need to weld a o2 bung into head pipe to a get correct and accurate o2 reading. I have a new head pipe with o2 bung welded in now but have not gone back to him to have it checked.



  • Pinepig

Posted April 28, 2016 - 09:17 PM

#46

So which jet do you suggest I change on the FI bike to make it start well

 

Sometimes I think you are a thick headed prick when I read your posts..........this is one of those times.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted April 29, 2016 - 12:49 AM

#47

wrf-rowdy:

 

do you have any recommendations for people without access to AF monitoring systems to correctly set the CO value? I agree with you that cracking the throttle is not all it takes because my bike has been hard starting through the button since day 1. i have the diag tool and have tried +/- values with some success but still don't have a good value for starting all the time with 1 button push.

 

could a smog station be useful for actually measuring the CO output and if so do you have a recommended %CO based on a tailpipe sniffer?

 

I'm partial to using a smog station as lambda measureing "device", I think you would get a reliable reading.

 

I'm currently running my '12 WRF at -30 (maxxed out lean) which results in more or less lambda = 1. 

This means cold starting at any OAT below ~15° C has me pull the knob slightly on e-start (=> neutral) and blip the throttle as if it were a 2-smoke to keep it running the first 10 seconds.

But as soon as it's warmed up (I've still blocked one radiatior side with cardboard) it fires up nicely in gear at button press.

 

So how to get there:

Previously, when using the on/off type, genuine Yamaha lambda sensor back in early fall 2015 (very hot here) I found it to indicate lambda = 1 at app. -25 CO.

(see: http://www.thumperta...ic-vs-af-ratio/ )

The way more expensive wide-range lambda sensor by Bosch claims -30 to still be a tad rich, this cold February.

(see https://www.youtube....h?v=VnHe9REXfmU )

 

=> lesson one:  the CO tools provides rather fine adjustments steps.

They are not to be tweaked to the single digt, +- 5 CO will be a "good CO setting".

 

If you check out my CO setting vids on youtube for example https://www.youtube....h?v=A_6EMua89Ow

you will see that large changes of CO will eventually stall the engine, IF the idle speed was set unrealistically low so the mixture matters for idle.

 

So what I did before deploying  A/F sensor was this:

1 warm it up well, right side aluminum frame HOT to the touch. This will take time, ride it for 15 minutes.

2 hook up FI tool

3 get into CO setting mode (rpms should be displayed live)

4 set CO = 0. as a start this is now "current CO"

5 NOW turn down idle speed with the knob till it merely barely idles (sound will be ugly, I know). This will take time, do not play with the throttle to test.

6 slowly add 10 steps to "current CO", see if it still idles

7 get back to "current CO"

8 slowly subtract 10 steps from "current CO"

9 Now: if she'd idling at both +/-10 step-values, back to "current CO" and lower the idle speed even more (slowly, one idle know "klick" at a time)

10 if she idles only at one of the CO values  (at current CO -10 or at current CO +10) this becomes the new "current CO" value => continue at step 5

11 the whole process is complete once you've found a CO value where at lowest possible idle speed it will stall before reaching current CO +10 or current CO -10

 

mind you:

- do not start the bike via e-start during the process, you'll drain your battery. always kickstart it.

- The above process does not need any operation of the throttle (maybe except for starting it back up when it stalled)

- It could be, as seen in the linked vid, that it is very hard to get an idle speed so ludicrously low,

  that the engine idles reliably at CO reading X, and will quickly stall at X +10 or X -10. 

  To keep the vid short I raced through the OC values, you'd want to wait maybe a second or two at every step!

 

 

Concept:

find the CO value where your bike will idle at the smallest idle speed KNOB setting.

(e.g. the CO setting that needs the least amount of air (knob setting) to create enough power to idle)

Ignore if the CO setting's value "seems to indicate" rich (+12) or lean (-20) it does NOT, it has arrived at the perfect CO value for idling.

Bump idle speed back up to ~1800 and you are set.

If you had a charged battery to begin with and didn't lazily drain it by repeatedly e-start it during the hunt for best mixture,

you should now have an in-gear e-starting WRF450.

 

btw.

that is exactly the procedure of how one sets up in-gear e-start on a WRF'2003, or 450EXC or... any carburated bike. 

Actually that way I got a firends XT500A to idle at 800rpms, and fire up first kick w/o stupid search for the white dot behind the cam glass window.

The CO tool becomes the carburetor's idle mixture screw, CO steps becomes 1/8 turn of the screw, rest is unchanged, including the requirement not to touch the throttle (FCR accelerator pump will mess up everthing)

 

And pls do report back here I'm genuinely interested to hear if that worked for you or, if not, which part of the plan failed.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, April 29, 2016 - 01:12 AM.


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  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted April 29, 2016 - 01:19 AM

#48

Sometimes I think you are a thick headed prick when I read your posts..........this is one of those times.

Don't be too harsh on him, maybe he didn't get the throttle cracked open correctly this morning. ;)

 

Actually he's right, "jetting a bike" means to change physical jets to achieve a desired mixture change.

What I was describing is the good old "playing with the mixture screw", albeit its electronic successor, 

not really "jetting" the EFI bike.



  • RockerYZWR

Posted April 29, 2016 - 03:24 AM

#49

All of this makes me glad to still have a carburetor.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted April 29, 2016 - 05:33 AM

#50

Sometimes I think you are a thick headed prick when I read your posts..........this is one of those times.

 

Gosh, thanks so much.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted April 29, 2016 - 07:56 AM

#51

All of this makes me glad to still have a carburetor.

Ha! But only until you want your accelerator pump to really do its job! 

On my FCRs it either did not squirt enough (almost stalling when whacking the throttle) or

it was doing too much or too lengthy delivering a back spark plug. 

 

And especially paintfull were  the FCRs, which had a limited lifespan, caused by the sled digging it rollers into the housing

till the sealing plate started to feel intake pressure force, makeing it break into pieces, that hopefully won't smash your cylinder head

when ingested miliseconds later.  Buddies and me BTDT, Brrr, no more FCR for me.

 

Trust me, once you got an EFI bike tuned in, it requires even less attention than a carb, no moving parts besides the butterfly and your throttle hand ;)



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted April 29, 2016 - 10:53 AM

#52

Ha! But only until you want your accelerator pump to really do its job! 

On my FCRs it either did not squirt enough (almost stalling when whacking the throttle) or

it was doing too much or too lengthy delivering a back spark plug. 

 

And especially paintfull were  the FCRs, which had a limited lifespan, caused by the sled digging it rollers into the housing

till the sealing plate started to feel intake pressure force, makeing it break into pieces, that hopefully won't smash your cylinder head

when ingested miliseconds later.  Buddies and me BTDT, Brrr, no more FCR for me.

 

Trust me, once you got an EFI bike tuned in, it requires even less attention than a carb, no moving parts besides the butterfly and your throttle hand ;)

 

That's the hardest part



  • offrd beatr

Posted May 01, 2016 - 07:48 PM

#53

My '14 has the usual mods. Ecm, screw, FMF slip on. Once you get familiar with how it likes to be started then its happy to start hot or cold, neutral or in gear. Take up the slack in the throttle cable, give it just a fuzz more and hit the button. Almost always lights the first time. Maybe I got lucky but I don't think it that big of an issue.

  • rcfallen

Posted May 02, 2016 - 12:50 PM

#54

Same as this guy ^^^^ ('14 WR450f) I have in completely uncorked, as most do (air box, comp ecu (hasn't been remapped), throttle screw, FMF GYTR slip on). Besides that, I run octane boost (110) in my fuel, bike E or kick start first try everytime (hot, cold, neutral, in gear). Cant get enough of the bike!







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