How does KTM get more power than Asian bikes?

[thsp485]

I have seen over these last few years that KTM seems to be setting the mark in all the 4 stroke displacements in horsepower levels.  I would like some engine builders or engineers  to explain why that is.  I have read some great opinions here about the 250F having oversized intake and exhaust port sizes and stuff like that and it seems like a good explanation.  What else can you see that explains the power being so good on those 250 and 450 motors?.  Also, do you have any thoughts on how they can add a e-starter and still have the lowest weights?  Some might think that there has to be some sacrifice somewhere to get that lightness, but I have not seen evidence of flimsiness from the bike.  What do you think?

[skorpan777]

The question is not how, its why. Its why are there differences in HP, its why are they lightest.

The answer is easy, they are different Company's, different thinking, different filosofi about whats the best bike.
 
Honda could easily make their 450 with 1-2 more HorsePower then the KTM(KTM could make 1-2HP more to) if they wanted to

but their filosofi is different,
They are maybe thinking: more manageable for the beginner?
And if you read 2015-16 450 shootout Honda is heavy but feels light and nimble so the weight numbers isn't everything but of course very important

About the weight: the Japanese bikes is on a every 4 year major update
and KTM is every 2 year and somebody have to be first in weight.

Its not long ago KTM wasn't the best,lightest most HP bike, i THINK in 2014 it was Yamaha
that produced most power in the 450 class.

Did you ask the same question about the Yamaha back then?

 

And in the 250 class in shootouts the KTM Engine isn't the easiest to ride because all power is in the upper rpm
so again the number isn't Everything.( BUT I LIKE BIG NUMBERS TO;LOL!)

And all bikes cant be lightest at the same time.
And all bikes cant be the same horse Power att the same time

Somebody have to be no 1, no2, no3 etc
 

Perhaps in 1 or  2 years it will be Honda with the most Horsepower, i dont think so but nobody knows

(all this apply for the 250 class to)

Edited March 20, 2016 by skorpan777

[William1]

Different ways of measuring has the most to do with it.

Numbers on paper mean little. Hold thirty pounds over your head. Now hold fifty pounds hanging down by your sides. Thirty pounds is lighter, right?

[335 SMITTY]

Now why would I want to do that?

[skorpan777]

Different ways of measuring has the most to do with it.

Numbers on paper mean little. Hold thirty pounds over your head. Now hold fifty pounds hanging down by your sides. Thirty pounds is lighter, right?

 

 

Now why would I want to do that?

 

HaHaHa i hear you but it sounded funny

[turbo dan]

Power is just torque at high RPM.  Without looking at a dyno chart or riding the bike I can't say for sure but its likely they are making a trade off somewhere else.  Their two strokes used to be curiously strong as well but this came at the cost of brutal power delivery that was nearly unmanageable.  There is more to going fast than peak power.

 

Then again it could be they just make a better engine.  Compare BMW's S1000RR to the Japanese liter bikes of the time.  No trade off in low end or midrange and yet it pees all over its competition on the top end.

[lowmass]

Not sure how much this has to do with it overall BUT the steel frame is an advantage in weight if designed properly. Most dont realize that aluminum was not the ideal choice for a frame material. Aluminum is not resiliant and cannot put up with flex the way steel can. To compensate for aluminums weakness to resist fracture the engineer is forced to make the structure stiff thus often adding weight to a design dispite the alum being "lighter" so much more of it has to be used that in the end the frames are heavyer than a well designed steel frame. Not to mention that designing in the desiered flex becomes much harder with aluminum. It was a choice by the Jap bike manufactures driven by consumer ignorance NOT good engineering. 

 

As well KTM is putting a bigger effort into the design of their motors. The Jap bikes are a bit behind in that department and will need to catch up.

 

Every little thing adds up to the complete whole. A little here a little there. Do this enough and eventually you have a product that outperforms the others.

 

I have been intimatly involved in product development a number of times. Basically even if there are good designers an engineers in place they have to be given the time and resorses to bring greatness. So many companys arent willing or able to do this to the degree that KTM is doing it now.

 

As well I suspect you have a situation at KTM where the egos of the "intelagencia" are not put above the talent and the experience. They listen to those who actually ride and race . That alone is HUGE. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by lowmass

[grayracer513]

... designing in the desiered flex becomes much harder with aluminum. It was a choice by the Jap bike manufactures driven by consumer ignorance NOT good engineering.

As well KTM is putting a bigger effort into the design of their motors. The Jap bikes are a bit behind in that department and will need to catch up.

I disagree on these two points.

 

Starting with the latter, the latest iteration of the YZ450F in stock form pumps out numbers in the 56-59 range repeatedly, depending only on the ECU mapping.  That's the most in class, currently, and by a fair margin. So KTM doesn't make more power than that bike.  The engine was designed around the intake port, which, running nearly dead straight from air boot to intake valves as it does, and at a low angle to the bore axis, is the reason for the odd cylinder orientation.  The area near the steering head was the only available space, and the cylinder had to be either angled forward of vertical which clashes with the front wheel, or slightly backward with the head turned around. 

 

Then there is the 15mm bore offset and some other things going on on the inside as well.  This with reliability and longevity that is unarguably superior to KTM and almost everyone else.  I don't think it can be said that anyone puts more effort into their design.  You may be right about most Japanese bikes, but lumping the lot together as "The Jap bikes" is a gross over-generalization.

 

As to aluminum frames, the use of engineered cast and/or pressure cast components, a methodology Yamaha also introduced 20 some years ago, gives the engineer the ability to create and adjust exactly the flex characteristics he wants from the component.  Yes, they save money, mostly because all the little hard points and mounting tabs for small components and large can be built into the frame component in a single operation.  And yes, they are just about the same weight, but suggesting that they end up being a big dead blob of metal with no "feel" is just categorically wrong. 

[Piney Woods]

Why are gas caps so difficult for KTM?

[lowmass]

Yea "effort into design" not the point. Design wisdom and choice is more to the point. I agree Yamaha is a leader BTW. They need some more time on the quality of power profile not so much peak. 

 

Alum vs steel, yes of course u can design any flex character u want with ether one. Point is in the end you can get where u want quicker easyer and with less development time and money with steel when it comes to frames. IMO a wise choice by KTM to stand fast there despite consumer demand.

 

Gas caps, obviously KTM is far from infallible ha...    

Edited March 26, 2016 by lowmass

[skorpan777]

if KTM is so smart why are they still using nylon plastic for the shock spring tensioner?

 

My point is:

you can never make everybody happy 

Edited March 27, 2016 by skorpan777

[lowmass]

The KTMs are coming dangerously close to making many "happy" with a bike straight off the floor. The others all have good areas BUT have a ways to go before they come close to this ability. 

 

Key areas "they" need to address- Breaks, clutches, shifting,balanced handling trates, power profiles, weight, reliability. Obviously some have more work to do in specific areas than the others.

 

Im in no way expecting perfection but when yr after yr you have weak breaks, clutches that quickly turn to dust, and strange overall handling manors you are going to loose customers to anyone moving ahead it these areas. 

 

The plastic shock ring. I agree they should change and they likely will.  In the mean time treat it for what it is, plastic. I lube with silicone dielectric paste and use a wooden tool to tap it around. Have had no issue but it is cheezy. WP has been a thorn in the side of KTM IMO...

[lowmass]

I disagree on these two points.

 

Starting with the latter, the latest iteration of the YZ450F in stock form pumps out numbers in the 56-59 range repeatedly, depending only on the ECU mapping.  That's the most in class, currently, and by a fair margin. So KTM doesn't make more power than that bike.  The engine was designed around the intake port, which, running nearly dead straight from air boot to intake valves as it does, and at a low angle to the bore axis, is the reason for the odd cylinder orientation.  The area near the steering head was the only available space, and the cylinder had to be either angled forward of vertical which clashes with the front wheel, or slightly backward with the head turned around. 

 

Then there is the 15mm bore offset and some other things going on on the inside as well.  This with reliability and longevity that is unarguably superior to KTM and almost everyone else.  I don't think it can be said that anyone puts more effort into their design.  You may be right about most Japanese bikes, but lumping the lot together as "The Jap bikes" is a gross over-generalization.

 

As to aluminum frames, the use of engineered cast and/or pressure cast components, a methodology Yamaha also introduced 20 some years ago, gives the engineer the ability to create and adjust exactly the flex characteristics he wants from the component.  Yes, they save money, mostly because all the little hard points and mounting tabs for small components and large can be built into the frame component in a single operation.  And yes, they are just about the same weight, but suggesting that they end up being a big dead blob of metal with no "feel" is just categorically wrong. 

  

BTW  as for the canted back cylinder in the Yamaha. Theres a bunch of room now between the cylinder and the frame down tube.Seems to me that area might be a great place to put a single wide radiator.  Duct the air into it from above still to avoid mud clug. That would lower and centralize quite a bit of mass. The bike could become slimmer than any other as well. I like the future for Yamahas basic layout and if done well I see them taking lead in next 4 yrs  

Edited March 29, 2016 by grayracer513

[skorpan777]

The KTMs are coming dangerously close to making many "happy" with a bike straight off the floor. The others all have good areas BUT have a ways to go before they come close to this ability. 

 

Key areas "they" need to address- Breaks, clutches, shifting,balanced handling trates, power profiles, weight, reliability. Obviously some have more work to do in specific areas than the others.

 

Im in no way expecting perfection but when yr after yr you have weak breaks, clutches that quickly turn to dust, and strange overall handling manors you are going to loose customers to anyone moving ahead it these areas. 

 

The plastic shock ring. I agree they should change and they likely will.  In the mean time treat it for what it is, plastic. I lube with silicone dielectric paste and use a wooden tool to tap it around. Have had no issue but it is cheezy. WP has been a thorn in the side of KTM IMO...

I agree with much what you say

but not about reliability there is yamaha No:1

 

And i am no yamaha guy check my garage

Edited March 28, 2016 by skorpan777

[lowmass]

I agree skorpan,

 

The Yamahas are the most reliable. They have been for yrs. Heck way back in 1979 I raced them simply because they didnt break ! I got sooo tired of the Suzukis eating cranks and the Honda frames cracking that despite the fact that I  didnt like the way the Yamahas handled I decided to buy them to avoid spending so much time and money wrenching.

 

I actually believe Yamaha is headed in a very good direction. They just need to refine the platform they now have and it will be great.Refine the power profile, get Nissin to design a better front break caliper, get the chassis sorted out so that it has a better balance of turning and stability, lower the weight. They have great suspension.

 

The reasion KTM is ahead in the overall is refinement of good design choices. Sort of like a euro car. They arent so much into changing the design radically every few yrs as they keep refining an already good design. Over time refinment adds up to a better overall package than exotic design that hasent reached its potential yet.

 

It will be interesting over the next few years as the Yamaha platform is refined to see how much better it really is than the more traditional design of say KTM. I want to experience both once there refined. I suspect we may be at the point of dimineshed returns. Meaning that even if Yamaha brings out the full potential of their design it may not have a BIG advantage over a well designed refined traditional design. 

 

Centralizing mass for sure is a theoretically good move BUT Sheer technical and theoretical assumptions have a way of humbling engineers ?

Edited March 30, 2016 by lowmass

[grayracer513]

...Sheer technical and theoretical assumptions have a way of humbling engineers ?

The assumptions do tend to run afoul of real world physics and stuff, don't they? 

[lowmass]

The assumptions do tend to run afoul of real world physics and stuff, don't they? 

boy do they ever

[ThrustWasher]

The new mag from MXA has the ktm dominating every bike in low,mid,high rpm hp and well as torque. With dyno numbers to boot.

Edited April 5, 2016 by PelvicThruster

[ThrustWasher]

Not too shabby

[skorpan777]

I agree skorpan,

 

The Yamahas are the most reliable. They have been for yrs. Heck way back in 1979 I raced them simply because they didnt break ! I got sooo tired of the Suzukis eating cranks and the Honda frames cracking that despite the fact that I  didnt like the way the Yamahas handled I decided to buy them to avoid spending so much time and money wrenching.

 

I actually believe Yamaha is headed in a very good direction. They just need to refine the platform they now have and it will be great.Refine the power profile, get Nissin to design a better front break caliper, get the chassis sorted out so that it has a better balance of turning and stability, lower the weight. They have great suspension.

 

The reasion KTM is ahead in the overall is refinement of good design choices. Sort of like a euro car. They arent so much into changing the design radically every few yrs as they keep refining an already good design. Over time refinment adds up to a better overall package than exotic design that hasent reached its potential yet.

 

It will be interesting over the next few years as the Yamaha platform is refined to see how much better it really is than the more traditional design of say KTM. I want to experience both once there refined. I suspect we may be at the point of dimineshed returns. Meaning that even if Yamaha brings out the full potential of their design it may not have a BIG advantage over a well designed refined traditional design. 

 

Centralizing mass for sure is a theoretically good move BUT Sheer technical and theoretical assumptions have a way of humbling engineers ?

Yup u r an old guy ?

 

Well put about the design

 

Yes i think Yamaha has start to gain some lost ground with the YZf model and now

with their fX series which i think is going to be a huge success

Now i just hope my close to heart brand (Kawa) will pick upp

Edited April 6, 2016 by skorpan777