Oil Change What looks normal? first after buying used bike


29 replies to this topic
  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 05, 2015 - 01:50 AM

#1

so i bought it been riding it fairly hard little on the dirt mostly on road it about 15 hours or 1200kms something like that thought its time i change the oil

 

now the old guy i bought it from said it had just had a yhamah service checked the valves and genral service so i figured its all good just ride it for a while and i did till now im not sure it i should be worried or not whats normal to see?

 

its a WR400F 99 year

 

now the tank/frame screen was clean as i used a clean pan as all ways oil looked fine when to the filter and 

 

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ive cleaned it all up and put fresh oil in started the bike cracked the oil feed line to check pressure all good closed that off shut the bike off checked the oil level yep good so at this stage its ready to keep rideing unless this amount of metal and debris is not normal? im thinking the filter has not been looked at for some time and this is just a build up of normal junk from the gearbox, clutch and stuff ?

 

i plan to drop the oil and check the filter after a few hours rideing just to see

 

what do you guys think? hope its not bad news for the engine its a good bike but i dont want to put money into it



  • bikedude987

Posted November 05, 2015 - 05:51 AM

#2

If they're magnetic, it might be something going out.  If you have time/money/ability, I would go through the engine COMPLETELY.  I would bet you'll find either a failing gear face or a slightly notchy bearing.  Or maybe a bolt is working it's way out and shaving off metal as it hits something.  

 

But I'm overly anal about how my machines run (perfect!) so if I saw more than a few flakes like that I would look into it.  

 

Flush the engine, there's debris floating around and you need a very clean baseline.  Then, change the oil, run it for an hour (half hour?) and drain.  If there's much more, I would certainly tear down.


Edited by bikedude987, November 05, 2015 - 05:52 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 05, 2015 - 06:03 AM

#3

Debris like that is not abnormal for the motor that old.

 

Most of the debris is from the clutch system, no doubt, which is normal.

 

The guy probably lied to you about the service....and the miles !    ...but the filter seems to have no oil on it ???

 

 As mentioned, Put in light oil, run the bike through the gears, and drain it all, put in a new filter, and start monitoring the filter debris.

 

You are problaby fine.



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 05, 2015 - 06:05 PM

#4

ok so i pulled the clutch pack to see what the basket looked like and looks mint almost new?

the frictions measure like 0.05mm from the fat end of service life so maby its had a clutch done?

it feels nice and grabby so seems healthy to me

 

it looks really dry for a "wet" clutch but maby thats how they are? most of the thing was only 1/4 wet 3/4 dry? when i re assembled it  i oiled the heck out of it all

 

basket has little polish marks but nothing that you can feel with a finger nail or small pick i couldn't find anywhere that meal might have come from ether

besides it would most likely be alu as the steel is harder and would wear the alu first?

 

i went for an hour and half - two hour ride this morning bike felt the same im just waiting for it to cool off then ill check that filter and report back

 

one thing tho was it jumped out or didnt engage 3rd or 4th gear when i left from the lights giveing it heaps ether i didnt pull the lever up fully or it poped out? when im giveing it heaps i just quickly close and re open the throttle and click it up a gear could that be damageing the box?

 

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Edited by Brrrap Brrraaaap, November 05, 2015 - 06:15 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 05, 2015 - 07:14 PM

#5

Plates are toast

Center hub is worn but not worn out

Clutch hub is fine

I can see aluminum debris inside the motor

 

Where is all the oil? Did you drain it with a cold motor ??



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 05, 2015 - 07:15 PM

#6

You need to test your debris with a magnet.

 

If there is large pieces, you have a gear flaking apart or the crank bearings are going.



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 05, 2015 - 09:48 PM

#7

took a look at the filter now that it cooled off

 

it had a lot less but still might be to much for my likes so it will likely get pulled down i think its junk from the box

 

so i washed the filter in a clean containor with paint thinners and also washed the filter houseing into it as well i just lent the bike over so it would run into the contanor i then put that into a coffie filter and it looks much better than the first time there was maby 5-10 bits that where magnetic the rest was alu and mostly black stuff im guessing clutch friction metrial?

 

i was thinking maby the guy who owned it befror me only looked at the filter now n then as you have to losten the exhaust and lift it up to get the top right bolt out of the filter houseing maby the huge amount of debris was a build up of manny hours

 

the bike had nearly 8000kms back in 2003 so my guess is its a 10-20k bike reading back in the book says its had the stering bearings done swing arm bunch of stuff but nothing about the motor? only when oil changes where done but this could be stuff just written down so its not really anything to go by

 

im going to brake the whole engine down and at least inspect all the parts most likely ill do a full re store on it i like the bike and id like to keep it for Manny years

 

IMG_1265_zps9fiwscdo.jpg

 

IMG_1264_zpsfztigqob.jpg

 

arnt the steels heat treated or something? it looks like they have been heat treated and then finish ground to size? see the shinny lines on them? also there really isnt any marks on the basket or hub the marks you see are pollished spots i cant feel any change in height from the shinny bit to the rest so i dont think there would be much metrial thats worn off ? im no bike mecanic



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 05, 2015 - 09:54 PM

#8

i dont know why there seems to be a lack of oil on things?? when i droped the oil the bike was dead cold and also when i looked at the clutch the bike had sat over night

 

my under standing is the oil has ran into the sump? is there a way to mesure oil pressure like on cars? or just losten an oil feed line and see that oil comes out? i did loseten the feed line and oil did come out so there is at least some oil getting around the bike

 

im off to check the workshop book and see where and how to inspect the oil pump/s

 

also should i get a paopr filter rather than this screen type that its got? i feel the screen is a hack job and it should have something better to get the small its aswell

 

im not sure where you see this alu in my motor but i didnt see any when i looked into the case with the clutch apart looked clean and oily down there



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 06, 2015 - 01:30 AM

#9

droped the oil again looks nasty so im callin it no more rideing time to pull her down and see whats going on disapointing really it rides well but better to pull it now vs contunue to ride it and put the rod out the case or something silly



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 06, 2015 - 05:51 AM

#10

I don't think the debris in that last pic is that bad.

I get  that every oil change on a very fresh motor (accept for the crank).

 

You MUST change the oil when HOT so you get the oil in a low viscosity state, and, so all the sludge is not resting in the sump.

If you don't, debris will come out on every oil change, forever....

 

I would keep riding it, and do that and keep inspecting.

 

You need a new clutch plate set, and use PAPER filters as they filter more debris.


Edited by KRANNIE, November 06, 2015 - 05:51 AM.


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  • bikedude987

Posted November 06, 2015 - 06:37 AM

#11

if the plates arent warped you could just sand the glaze off of them.  BTW, they are heat treated, but not blued from the factory.  they got HOT in service which is why they are blued.

 

it's not much money to tear down and inspect and you might find this is just a bunch of stuff that had settled in the sump and is now dislodging.  Or you might find that bearing that's going out.  despite what Krannie says, this is NOT a normal amount of debris, even for a motor this old.  It means something, somewhere is starting to fail.  Find it.



  • Doug06fx4screw

Posted November 06, 2015 - 02:36 PM

#12

I agree with Krannie on using paper filters. Those reusable ones DO NOT save money in the long run. I also agree that having that much debris is not normal on a well broken in engine. Something is certainly failing and a full tear down for inspection is needed. It's not worth trashing the entire engine over a failing bearing or gear etc.

  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 07, 2015 - 03:09 AM

#13

i agree its worth pulling the lot down for inspection at the vary least but one thing that worrys me is getting parts for this old girl..

 

im suspecting it to be gearbox or some bearing as there isnt much else

 

if i rember ill pull the rocker covor off and check the cam out it could be possible its wipeing a lobe off or something like that who knows but im keen to check and look at the easy stuff first

 

i looked in the manual and it seems the oil pumps are in under the clutch covor but not so deep you need to split the case dosent make much diffrence probly whone look at it un less i go fully into it

 

as for the clutch i think ill just leave it alone it works well no slip that i can feel its grabby pops good wheelies also if it did start playing up its an easy thing to replace the friction and seteels

 

as for hot vs cold oil changes i agree hot is best as the trash has more change to be suspended rather than the heavvy stuff fall to the bottom and stay there also the oil ive used since i got it is diesel 15-40 being diesel it has a larger anti sludge and cleening additives vs petrol oils being for sootty dirty diesel engines my guess is its brakeing up any built up junk adding to the score bord so to speek

 

like i said im going to have some time where im not allowed to ride or drive so thats when ill brake the case and check it out for no ill just change the oil about 2 hours and montor the filter i want to ride while i can haha hope it dosent bight me in the ass

 

all the oil drops ive done have been dead cold also a stupid desing by yam to have the exhaust it the way of the filter covor bolt how stupid



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 07, 2015 - 06:13 AM

#14

All motor parts are redily available, no problem

 

Most likely your 4th gear is flaking apart, which is a known problem on some VIN runs.

 

Your debris looks like a mix of clutch hub (aluminium) gear flake (black ferrous flakes) and clutch/combustion debris (non-ferrous sludge)

 

Fine ferrous debris (like that you would find on the end of a magnetic drain plug) is completely normal.

 

I would ride it and drain/ fine filter the oil after each ride. If the debris amount drops signifigantly, that is evidence that the debris you found is 'old'.

 

If it continues, stop riding it.



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 08, 2015 - 12:09 AM

#15

where can i get parts? i ashed yam to get prices on some stuff and they said its basicly to old and that they want to sell me a new bike



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 08, 2015 - 07:04 AM

#16

where can i get parts? i ashed yam to get prices on some stuff and they said its basicly to old and that they want to sell me a new bike

 

 

There are only three reasons to go to your typical dealer for anything:

 

- to buy a bike

- because it's close, and you need some 'universal' parts like a plug, air cleaner, oil, etc....

- to sit on a new bike and pump the suspenion and talk to the salesman about buying it.

 

Your dealer is a AHOLE if he is telling you that parts are not available.

...or his he telling you that he has to order the parts, which is normal...

 

Everything is different in AUS, but I know you can get all the oem parts but possibly the stator, on line.



  • Brrrap Brrraaaap

Posted November 09, 2015 - 02:59 AM

#17

yeah i thought so the reason i haven't chased it up

 

at the lest ill need a full gasket kit and piston rings but what else would you say is a "your in there might as well change it?" part ie i want to make the whole motor top to bottom like new or at least good enugh not to have problems for a good few years i know its hard to say with out seeing the condision of it but maby there might be some known parts that go bad or what ever im thinking have the crank split and new big ends bearing con rod piston and rings hone the bore as long as its in speck full set of bearings where ever there is one and maby a gear or two some one said 4th gear is know for being crap?

 

im  no bike mecanic but ive built a few engines and have some tools to get things set up for cars but im sure bikes have a bunch of diffrent specilty tools and whats fo ding things



  • RiderDeAzul

Posted November 09, 2015 - 06:19 AM

#18

Just curious Krannie, is that an aftermarket clutch basket? The OEM one looks different on my 2007.



  • RiderDeAzul

Posted November 09, 2015 - 06:21 AM

#19

yeah i thought so the reason i haven't chased it up

 

at the lest ill need a full gasket kit and piston rings but what else would you say is a "your in there might as well change it?" part ie i want to make the whole motor top to bottom like new or at least good enugh not to have problems for a good few years i know its hard to say with out seeing the condision of it but maby there might be some known parts that go bad or what ever im thinking have the crank split and new big ends bearing con rod piston and rings hone the bore as long as its in speck full set of bearings where ever there is one and maby a gear or two some one said 4th gear is know for being crap?

 

im  no bike mecanic but ive built a few engines and have some tools to get things set up for cars but im sure bikes have a bunch of diffrent specilty tools and whats fo ding things

I would do Cam Chain possibly (if there is any play in it), maybe an oil pump, and may want to upgrade your water/coolant pump.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 09, 2015 - 06:22 AM

#20

Just curious Krannie, is that an aftermarket clutch basket? The OEM one looks different on my 2007.

 

It doesn't look like a stock WR basket, but it does look like OEM yamaha...






 
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