Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool - WR450 specific



150 replies to this topic
  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 01, 2016 - 07:32 PM


re Earth-X:

after reading https://en.wikipedia...osphate_battery

they seem to be a near perfect lead-acid replacement when using four cells:

Max Voltage would be 3.65 * 4 = 14.6V, but even more importantly

"LiFePO4 batteries have a very constant discharge voltage. 
Voltage stays close to 3.2V during discharge until the cell is exhausted."

Sounds like starter rpms won't decline as much as they do with draining lead-acid batterys.

I wonder if they really feature true 12Ah, that would be twice the energy of a WRF's stock YTZ7S (claims a measly 6Ah).

 

edit:

the label http://earthxmotorsp...com/shop/ETX12Asays 12EqAh but the fine print the the bottom speaks of 4Ah :lame: 

but it stills weighs less then half a YTZ7S.

if you knew anything about batteries you would know that a lead acid STARTER battery can only be discharged about 30% of it's total capacity. a deep cycle battery can be bought to about 50% of its total capacity. any more than this will cause the battery life to suffer greatly by about 80% fewer charge cycles.

 

the Li-Fe battery can be discharged to 100% of its capacity without any damage. they have lower internal resistance so they take a charge about 3 times faster to recover than a lead acid battery.

as you stated earlier if your woods riding which i do 90% of the time you have way more cranking amps, and a higher resting voltage not to mention it has an internal BMS that will disconnect the battery from the load if it gets discharged to far which is very damaging to a Li-Fe battery. in fact they can actually explode if discharged to far. the shori battery has none of these things and can self destruct if not managed properly.

 

so why would you want a lead acid battery that will only last about a year or 2 with normal use, weighs more than 2x as much, has less cranking amps, lower operating voltage, higher internal resistance, can leak acid, and is a over 100 year old technology when you can have all the benefits of a lithium battery which has more storage for the same size and half weight.

 

you really should research a little more before you spread your lack of knowledge across the web like you know what your talking about..

 

So far your 0-2 for knowledge on the subject matter of this thread. maybe you should quit while your ahead. people on these forums are seeking help and you talk like you know what your talking about and you may even believe yourself that your pretty smart.. but it is clear as you tinker with things that you do not know what the long term effects are of what your adjusting. there is a reason yamaha makes this adjustment tool expensive and hard to find for the general public, because in the hands of an inexperienced backyard mechanic you can do a lot more harm than good..

 

it seems your experience with fuel injection is pretty weak as is most i suppose it is fairly new to the motorcycle scene and i suspect few on the forums really understand how it works. you should study automotive applications, way more complex when you add MAF sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors direct injection, forced induction I've been studying these and working on for the past 10 years or so. been studying electronics for the past 40 years give or take. so i think i have a pretty good handle on the subject matter here.

 

all of this nonsense could have been avoided if you just tried starting your bike by cracking the throttle a little. even without the decompressor pin modification (i personally think is un-necessary) the bike has always started fine in or out of gear and the Lithium battery definitely spins it over faster which also helps a lot.

 

cheers!



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 01, 2016 - 07:34 PM


 "it just increases the cylinder pressure another 30-40 psi to help it light off easier"

 

What's the cranking compression before and after grinding on the pin?? A gain of 30-40 psi is a lot........

oops i meant to say the compression is up to about 30-40 psi with the mod at my elevation i don't know what it is at sea level.



  • 270winchester

Posted January 01, 2016 - 08:02 PM


Bass, if adjusting the idle mixture is detrimental to the engine, why would Yamaha make it adjustable? It seems that parameter would be locked.tighter if it didn't need to ever be tweaked. I followed Rowdy's instructions an now mine is set with a negative number and it does start on the first jab. I'm not sure if it's leaner or richer with the negative setting. I do know that when it was at 0!pr at + 10, it takes up to 3 jabs at the button unless I have it cracked. I'm just trying to understand all of this better, not argue. I'm not sold yet on raising the compression to get it started.

  • 270winchester

Posted January 01, 2016 - 08:08 PM


I am at 7500 ft. A negative CO number did not solve my problem. It makes starting worse. My bike starts better at +12, and I have to use Bass's suggestion of very very slight crack to throttle to have it start on first try. But, this is not in gear.


Try following the instructions again (setting idle to about 1300 then adjusting CO while it's running so that it dies going positive and negative, then using the average). Mine ended up being -10. I do not have a red header glow either from what I could tell. I am at sea level...

  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted January 01, 2016 - 08:50 PM


Short of buying another new bike, I and probably most of us will try what we can to make are riding experience better. There's nothing worse then stalling and the downside of a hill and not being able to be rolling and hit the button before the next uphill and restart.

This constant bickering isn't getting us closer to are quest. For me not fully understanding how this f.I. system works with the co setting makes it that much harder. I'm not finding a lot of manufacture info on line about it.

My 2cents worth.

  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 01, 2016 - 09:08 PM


Bass, if adjusting the idle mixture is detrimental to the engine, why would Yamaha make it adjustable? It seems that parameter would be locked.tighter if it didn't need to ever be tweaked. I followed Rowdy's instructions an now mine is set with a negative number and it does start on the first jab. I'm not sure if it's leaner or richer with the negative setting. I do know that when it was at 0!pr at + 10, it takes up to 3 jabs at the button unless I have it cracked. I'm just trying to understand all of this better, not argue. I'm not sold yet on raising the compression to get it started.

 

i am certain that the tool exists for a qualified tech with a factory service manual handy to adjust the settings if they do not meet spec. i am also 100% certain that YAMAHA the people who actually designed and have been building the bike for 60 years now do not have anything in the factory service manual that states changing the fuel mixture at idle should be done to cure a starting problem. i further feel that yamaha is fully aware the bike needs to have the throttle cracked slightly on startup as it is CLEARLY stated in the owners manual. they even went to the effort to put alignment marks on the throttle housing for this reason. while no bike is exactly the same the marks in my opinion are for reference, and not exact measurements. from experience i have found that the "feel" is more accurate for me though harder to explain or describe in print as i have attempted here. so yamaha simply gave us some reference marks to aid with starting.

everything else, modifying the decompressor pin and screwing up the A/F ratio are simply bandaids to the actual problem which is really not a "problem" i think more accurately it is a very small "sweet spot" in the throttle opening / starting procedure. based on my previous post holding the rpm at the 2300-2500 range is a very accurate description of the "amount" you really need to open it to get results every time with consistency.

 

why would you need to adjust it? well several things can go out of whack. there are certainly manufacturing tolerances of every component in every bike. If the Map sensor, air intake temp sensor, fuel injector, throttle position sensor or any other component of the system is not exactly the same from 1 bike to another but otherwise still functions within design parameters the Co setting can be adjusted per some spec. as was measured, probably 14.1:1 AFR or more likely 14.7:1 (stoic) +/- .8 perhaps since i don't have a manual i could not say but for sure but the same reason a carburetor bike has an idle A/F adjustment screw and replaceable jets. 

 

fuel injection takes care of a lot of the inconsistencies but if a sensor is feeding the wrong value the whole system is out of whack.

a car on the other hand uses an O2 sensor in the exhaust and a closed loop system that consistently reads and learns to trim the fuel both long term and short term as well as enrichment mode to make certain the mixture is optimal.

a red hot glowing header pipe is a sure sign of it running too lean. but an engine running near Stoic will certainly heat up a header pipe if left to idle with no air flowing over it on a hot day maybe just not as fast.

 

but your statement proves my point that i have been beating my head against the wall trying to get into this other guys thick skull, changing the Co value may have an effect on the way it starts but it is NOT the root cause or the solution to the problem. will it get the desired result? maybe.. but what else does running an engine too rich or lean affect? don't you think that if changing the setting with a tool your not supposed to have access to that is the "Fix" that yamaha would have heard people are having starting problems and either submitted a bulletin to the field to make this adjustment in the service department per their spec, and would be shipping new bikes with the correct fuel setting if that was actually the root cause? easy enough to fix don't you think?

 

i am pretty sure a multi million dollar if not billion dollar corporation full of engineers that designed the bike are capable of making this adjustment knowing it's consumers are frustrated their new bike is so difficult to start.

the fact is they already know that where they set the decompression mechanism to a happy medium between being too much compression that may make the bike hard to start while in gear or with a weak battery, verses too little compression that it will not start.

yea i think they took that into consideration when they designed it, and put in print in the manual that you need to open the throttle slightly so it will start per design specification. they put it in print in the manual for a reason, because they designed it that way.

 

bandaids to problems without identifying the root cause just cause more problems. it's like my honda CRF with titanium intake valves, when they wear out they fall out of spec, you can re adjust them and make it start better but the solution is to replace them and have the seats re-surfaced in this case a design flaw really should be using these valves on a MX bike that gets rebuilt regularly. on a woods bike i found the stainless steel valves to be a better long term reliability solution.

 

but in any case i do not believe the compression needs to be changed at all as you eluded in your reply. (i agree with you) I've been simply saying that i have a mechanic who has been a certified Yamaha tech and who does everything from porting and polishing to dyno tuning, cam tweaking who knows these motors inside and out who has found a simple method to aid the bike starting especially for those of us who live at higher elevations. doing this to every new bike they sell because it has greatly lowered the number of comebacks to their dealership and the number of frustrated customers. how much do they grind off? i have no idea. all i know is mine starts easier than my friends exact same bike that was purchased elsewhere. his still starts with the cracked throttle but is a tighter "sweet spot" than mine. i can start mine without using the throttle if i want but it will usually spin a few more times and may not always light the first try.

 

i have not used the tool but i believe it has more functions than to just adjust the Co setting. that is only 1 of many things it does. from what i understand it is a diagnostic tool. its primary function is to diagnose or troubleshoot problems related to the fuel injection system whatever they might be. probably allows you to monitor sensor data values and operate relays and such maybe turn on the fuel pump to verify things are working. usually along with the tool a factory service manual would be included with a flow chart to diagnose problems with a yes/no go/no go troubleshoot step by step approach. and in there is probably a specification and procedure to follow that includes adjusting the duty cycle of the injector at idle (aka Co setting)

 

edit, if you want my advice, put your Co setting back to the factory spec. try using my method to find your "sweet spot" and with a marker of some kind make a new witness mark on the throttle tube and grip so you can easily find the spot before you hit the button. I've started mine so many times i don't even think about it anymore, every time i start it, i'm at exactly 2300-2500 rpm if i hold the throttle exactly where i did before i hit the button. it lights up with gusto and exuberance even while in gear every single time! and i think the Lithium battery definitely helps and it certainly doesn't hurt in the weight department. i also know my bike is running exactly with the correct A/F ratio yamaha designed it to unless i change it with the tool they made available to me to make adjustments with. (GYTR tuner)

 

after-all every person I've read in this thread that has adjusted the CO still admits it starts much more easily when using the throttle as has been discussed over and over and over at length regardless what setting was used with the tool. it seems the common denominator seems to be the ones frustrated with it enough to buy the tool and try making adjustments are the same that refuse to follow the starting procedure in the manual (opening the throttle.) further the people not responding in this thread (other than myself) know how to start it and is a non issue for them because they simply followed the starting procedure in the manual and see no need to buy the tool or make any adjustments.

 

the only bike I've ever had that started without using the throttle was my honda VTX 1800 with a much bigger battery and starter and enough power to turn over the engine without a decompressor mechanism everything on a dirt bike is made to be light weight be it the battery, starter, and gears to connect the rotation of the starter to the crank. all of which are made for light duty and this is why a decompressor is needed in the first place.

once the engine runs, the decompressor is no longer active which is why it will idle without holding the throttle and why it is needed before start up.


Edited by Bass Mechanic, January 01, 2016 - 09:31 PM.


  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 01, 2016 - 09:41 PM


Short of buying another new bike, I and probably most of us will try what we can to make are riding experience better. There's nothing worse then stalling and the downside of a hill and not being able to be rolling and hit the button before the next uphill and restart.

This constant bickering isn't getting us closer to are quest. For me not fully understanding how this f.I. system works with the co setting makes it that much harder. I'm not finding a lot of manufacture info on line about it.

My 2cents worth.

you will find that a rekluse auto clutch will make your life so much easier you'll wonder how you ever got along without one.

we ride some NASTY trails. some steep up hill covered in rocks the size of bowling balls and ledges that are easily 18-24 inches high. trust me i know all about stalling and having an auto clutch gets your butt up the hills without stalls and without the need to restart. nothing else gives you the controllability and precise power delivery on the tight technical trails. you can focus your attention on riding and maintaining control without the fear of stalling out.

further if you follow the info i have provided in this thread, even if you do stall out your back in business with a single press if you follow my instructions. but the best part about the auto clutch (core exp) it feels just like stock, works like stock and unless your about to stall you would never know that its even installed until you come to a stop in gear and the engine still runs..

ir when your going downhill near idle it will free wheel but a blip of the gas locks it right back up and you can downshift a gear to hold it with engine braking.

it will take you about 2 hours of riding to get used to it and you'll wonder how you ever rode without one.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 12:27 AM


If that altitude vs. decomp compression effect were true, then the mountain guys would have been plagued by it since the inception of the WR450F in 2003!

 

Everything that has an autodecomp would be firing up nicely down low at sea level, and not so nice at altitude, as

no manufacturer has an altitude adjusting auto decomp, but all trying to keep e-start as light weight as possible.

 

Personally I've never heard of '03 WRFs or 450EXCs to have to mess with their auto decomp mechanisms when living and riding at higher altidudes.

 

I am at 7500 ft. A negative CO number did not solve my problem.  It makes starting worse.  My bike starts better at +12,

and I have to use Bass's suggestion of very very slight crack to throttle to have it start on first try.   But, this is not in gear.

Did you try the "search for engine stall CO limits" with idle speed as low as possible and checking for CO settings which maks the engine stall?

Like 270winchseter did so bravely: http://www.thumperta...6#entry12833311

 

I never was claiming that my CO setting has to work for erveryone, but that everyone should search for the sweet spot of highest idle speed.

Maybe your bike would like to be started at CO= +25

If you don't like that tedious searching for stall limits, simply try -30, to +30 in steps of ten. 

 

It simply doesn't make much sense "curing" starting problems if you didn't bother to get the idle mixtrue right first.

(and make sure your battery is charged when testing)

At least for the guys living at 2000ft and below I can testify that stock battery/starter 
will give you instant in-gear e-starts from coolant temp "hot" down to +15°C 
only if you have dialled in the CO setting for your personal bike, ignoring "values from the internet"

Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 03:53 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 01:27 AM


Short of buying another new bike, I and probably most of us will try what we can to make are riding experience better. There's nothing worse then stalling and the downside of a hill and not being able to be rolling and hit the button before the next uphill and restart.

This constant bickering isn't getting us closer to are quest. For me not fully understanding how this f.I. system works with the co setting makes it that much harder. I'm not finding a lot of manufacture info on line about it.

My 2cents worth.

My current model for YAMAHA WRF ECU:  It has two basic operation modes

1 ) with throttle closed it uses a CO-setting derived "map" (not really a map when throttle is at one pos only)

2 ) with throttle open it uses the PowerTuner maps loaded into the ECU

 

3 ) Interpolation inside powertuner map

Between the nine points of a PowerTuner map it (linearly?) interpolates output values,

e.g. there are no "jumps" in output "signal" (ign advance timing or fuel inj. duration)

when a Powertuner map point of value -2 sits adjacent to a power tuner map point of +4

 

4 ) Internpolation between CO and powertuner

Between CO-map and powertuner map the system again interpolates:

a crazily  lean CO setting of -30 that is followed by a 1/8 throttle powerTuner map point of +4 (rich) will,

when the throttle is openen from closed to 1/8th, result in a interpolated injection duration,

changing the mixture from lean at closed throttle to rather rich at 1/8th throttle.

Hence, I predict, that at 
0        throttle the mixture is only defined by CO setting
1/32th   throttle you'll ride with a mix of 75% CO setting and 25% powertuner setting
1/16th   throttle you'll ride with a 50% mix of CO setting and powertuner setting
3/32th   throttle you'll ride with a mix of 25% CO setting and 75% powertuner setting
from 1/8 throttle the mixture is defined by the powertuner map only

(Had I onboard video I could prove that:  Did some coasting around town

first with super lean CO + rich powertuner map and then reversed, with rich CO + super lean powertuner map, found:

CO setting kicks in only extremely close to "throttle shut",but no jumping/stuttering when slowly alternating between 0 and 1/8 throttle)

 

I've ordered a wideband O² sensor with AFR display and will document

- absolute AFR values for the whole CO range at idle and

- the CO vs. powertuner map interpolation as describen in 4 )


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 04:34 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 01:30 AM


Short of buying another new bike, I and probably most of us will try what we can to make are riding experience better. There's nothing worse then stalling and the downside of a hill and not being able to be rolling and hit the button before the next uphill and restart.

Re-reading that I realized I would simply roll on downward in gear with the clutch out!

Them auto decomp bikes are the simplest to get going again when stalled DOWNHILL.

 

BTDT a lot, on my '03 WRFs as well as on the '12, works like a charm, conserves battery charge.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 05:25 AM.


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  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 01:36 AM


Bass, if adjusting the idle mixture is detrimental to the engine, why would Yamaha make it adjustable? It seems that parameter would be locked.tighter if it didn't need to ever be tweaked. I followed Rowdy's instructions an now mine is set with a negative number and it does start on the first jab. I'm not sure if it's leaner or richer with the negative setting. I do know that when it was at 0!pr at + 10, it takes up to 3 jabs at the button unless I have it cracked. I'm just trying to understand all of this better, not argue. I'm not sold yet on raising the compression to get it started.

That's great news, at least for 270winchester, he discovered the same things as me: :ride:

 

With messed up "stock" CO setting: bad starting, 3 jabs at the button, throttle cracking as tedious fix :thumbsdn:

 

After finetuning CO setting as I suggested: first jab e-starts. :thumbsup:

 

Just imagine my bike's preowner was racing it for 3 years and recommended "pulling the hot start slightly, and she'll fire up nicely when hot" to me.

I can't say if he ever lost seconds in a race because he had to get into neutral first, move the left hand from the bars to the hot start knob

instead of simply doing one jab at the e-start button in-gear.

 

What a sad tragedy.  :facepalm:    I bet he's still telling everyone that the WRF was great, except for hot starting :banghead:

 

@270winchester: How about first jab in-gear e-starts ?


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 05:26 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 02:40 AM


 

people on these forums are seeking help and you talk like you know what your talking about and you may even believe yourself that your pretty smart.

 

Last time I checked I did help 270winchester with his starting woes. :p

 

 

 

it seems your experience with fuel injection is pretty weak as is most i suppose it is fairly new to the motorcycle scene and i suspect few on the forums really understand how it works.

 

Well, I did design a DIY fuel injection for my WR400F, using an injector and throttle body from the salvage yard,

a stock WR TPS sensor, a selft designed and manufactured PCB with a selft programmed ST7 microcontroller

and new Bosch fuel pump (hard to come by as used external unit, a rather expensive and energy thristy item, :( ).

Some skillfull aluminum welder welded the injector housing onto the throttle body and

some self created O² sensor threading into the old WR400F header (stainless steel), as I can't weld.

 

After manual idle setup the software was self learning (searching for O² sensor voltage jumps when the

operator would hold throttle still and rpm constant, saved the found injection duration timing into EEPROM).

I then smoothed out the mapping and was hitting the freeway. 

Later I got busted by the cops for riding with some scary bush of threads and wires hanging off the left side of the bike,

they were pretty damn sure that this was nowhere (emissions) legal.

Btw. the not working taillight is what got their attention. It's the small things that get you :banghead:

 

The system was only a proof of concept as I couldn't solve the sustainability issue:

At idle the heavy fuel pump and injector were draining more current than the measly WR400F generator would replenish,

hence the bike would have died after idling for some time from electricity starvation.

I even tried a DIY DC-DC step up converter to bump up the low idle generator output to +12V but the system's electircal energy balance was insufficient.

 

An EFI solution that only works sustainably when average rpms are above 3000 is useless for woods riding.

 

But it sure was a hell lot of fun starting something like that from scratch.

Check out the "poor man's MAP sensor" I used to get some starting point for idle stop position of the butterfly valve.

Back then people weren't documenting everything they were doing, but here's a pic of old showing the setup http://www.thumperta...ha-wr400f-1998/

(behind get ign. coil ist the butterfly valve, you'll identify the throttle body and the injector welded on top of it, to right of the injector you see the pressure regulator,

the PCB sitting where the tank would rest is the initial stage manual injection duration control, the back knob is what I turned until injection duration allowed engien start)

Clikc on the modifications to see some other pics, albeit only from very early development.

 

So, Bass mechanic,  what is your EFI experience?

 

edit: to set perspective right this was in no way a production ready system. 

 I do know a riding buddy that was and is working for Bosch FI dept.  Back then mostly Diesel (Yes, exactly the now famous kind) nowadays he's doing the gasoline ECUs.

 He strongly objected to me using just the TPS as load input, he advocated a solid state map sensor.

 He correctly predicted that self learning software can go awry and suggested a limp home feature.

 I actually managed to become stranded some 20 km out as the initial software release was self learning increasingly worse injection values

 and I had to resort to "right above idle" throttle setting (an area were I did not allow mapping values to be self learned => limp home mode)

 So I crawled home in 2nd going ~10mph, took ages to get home, made me very conservative with regard of how far off values one is willing to learn in real time.

Furthermore  he correctly critizised that w/o MAP sensor I'd be as altitude sensitive as any carb.

He explained that the real shit has a plethora of cascaded maps where each sensor is able to shift the intermediate result around:

The coolant temp sensor uses load+rpm+temp to compensate for coldstart,

The static air perssure sensor would compensate for absolute riding altitude, the knock sensor... well I think you get the picture.

 Way too much storage requirement for my ST7 chip, I was happy to be able to interpolate the four ajdacent map points,

 and don't see any sensible way how I'd calibrate a cold start mapping anyhow, w/o a controlled freezer chamber)


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 04:31 AM.


  • 270winchester

Posted January 02, 2016 - 06:25 AM


Mine started with the first push in gear for 2 or 3 tries. But, like I said earlier, I was in a shop environment only, not out riding. It will be a while before I will get to field test it as it has been cold and raining for a while.

Bass- I don't disagree with your concept, but it bugs me to have a FI bike and have to crack the throttle. I do not have to do that on my 2010 Honda rancher, which is FI. Also, if I remember correctly, the book says the mark on the throttle is for higher elevations... I have a friend who is a Yamaha mechanic and I will ask him what he thinks about leaning out the CO. To me, it seems just like setting the idle mixture on a carbed bike. Maybe I'm oversimplifying

I would also like to get vxljim's opinion on all of this. I remember reading that he too had done a lot of testing with the idle mixture on these bikes.

  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 02, 2016 - 06:42 AM


Mine started with the first push in gear for 2 or 3 tries. But, like I said earlier, I was in a shop environment only, not out riding. It will be a while before I will get to field test it as it has been cold and raining for a while.

Bass- I don't disagree with your concept, but it bugs me to have a FI bike and have to crack the throttle. I do not have to do that on my 2010 Honda rancher, which is FI. Also, if I remember correctly, the book says the mark on the throttle is for higher elevations... I have a friend who is a Yamaha mechanic and I will ask him what he thinks about leaning out the CO. To me, it seems just like setting the idle mixture on a carbed bike. Maybe I'm oversimplifying

I would also like to get vxljim's opinion on all of this. I remember reading that he too had done a lot of testing with the idle mixture on these bikes.

 

the reason your rancher does not need to crack the throttle is because it has a bigger battery and a much lower compression engine. in other words, honda didn't see the need to put a 13:1 compression piston and full on race engine in a farm duty 4 wheeler.

the only reason you need to open the throttle is because if they made the decompressor less aggressive to raise the compression they would also need to beef up the battery and starter which would make the bike weigh more the only thing KTM did right on the 2016 is add a lithium battery you can get 2x the cranking amps from a battery that weighs 1/3 the weight. i believe most starters on bikes are using neodymium rare earth magnets. they are 11 times stronger for the weight than ceramic.

who cares that you have to crack the throttle? isn't the point of electric start that you don't have to kick it? if the procedure requires that you crack the throttle, your hand is already on the throttle right next to the button! how hard is that?  :rolleyes:

 

and it is exactly like adjusting the idle mixture on a carb'ed bike but the factory set it to stoic which is "perfect" this is the "target" that you look for but never get right on a carb bike. and it is always affected by elevation and barometric pressure, humidity and temperature. all of which no longer affect an FI bike! and since the co setting is NOT the reason it is harder (strike that.. DIFFERENT) to start there is no need to change it or mess with it.

what you need to do is simply follow the starting instructions, thats it! you don't need to buy anything, or adjust anything all of these "experts" in here are telling you to adjust something without any point of reference or test equipment to tell you how much you have affected the A/F ratio.

what if you added too much fuel? what if you are too lean? how do you know? doing such is simply back yard mechanic mentality. you have a machine with best state of the art electronic precision to get the mixture right where it should be so why mess with it since that is NOT the problem.

 

that's like a bike that won't run right so you change the oil instead of fixing the problem. your making an adjustment that does not need to be made, you should simply follow the owners manual on the start procedure.

so your going to put your trust in some guy online who found a way to make an adjustment that your not supposed to have to make when you could simply follow the instructions that came with your bike?

really?  :banghead:

mine starts fine even at high altitude and so does my friends bike that has not been modified in any way. even the guys i ride with one has a 310 husquavarna another with a 450 KTM and another with a 350 KTM one with a suzuki 450

they all had issues starting their bikes until i shared that cracking the throttle might help. and even though none reported the same start procedure in their owners manual, all start much like my yamaha with the same results because they all share the similar high compression piston and i assume all the manufacturers found a compromise to the issue of added weight when fitting a bike with e start capability.

 

if you don't want to crack the throttle, either turn up your idle speed or pull the enrichment knob, you'll get the exact same result as cracking the throttle!

i never use my enrichment plunger even when cold. i crack the throttle and it fires up every time and i just hold it for a second until it runs smooth then let it warm up at idle.    

I've started my bike first try in -4 degrees F no problem.


Edited by Bass Mechanic, January 02, 2016 - 07:05 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 06:56 AM


Mine started with the first push in gear for 2 or 3 tries. But, like I said earlier, I was in a shop environment only, not out riding. It will be a while before I will get to field test it as it has been cold and raining for a while.

No worries, it'll stay like that. :thumbsup:

 

 

To me, it seems just like setting the idle mixture on a carbed bike. Maybe I'm oversimplifying

No you're not, you've got it right.    Neither my '03 WRF nor my buddy's 450EXC (both FCR carbed) 

would e-start reliably in-gear in woods sessions unless one had tweaked the idle mixture for best e-start.

He claimed being off as little 1/8 turn will render his EXC very hard to e-start. :jawdrop:

That $90 FI diag tool is just your expensive idle mixture screwdriver, which CARB and EPA wouldn't let you have.
Maybe that is exactly the reason why YAMAHA omitted that single setting from the PowerTuner.
For them it would have been a piece of cake adding that setting to the map programmer.

With the FI diag tool's CO stetting you can do exactly what you can do by adjusting an FCR's idle mixture screw setting, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Now you've got to ask yourself how many buddies of the FCR era (successfully) reasoned like

"damn, it doesn't e-start well, let's change decomp compression, carb setup is next to irrelevant for e-start"


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 07:11 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 07:09 AM


who cares that you have to crack the throttle? isn't the point of electric start that you don't have to kick it?

if the procedure requires that you crack the throttle, your hand is already on the throttle right next to the button! how hard is that?  :rolleyes:

 

I do agree 100% with above statement.  This is what I did when kicking my XT600 and TT600, for over a decade, it becomes an automatic reflex when starting

 

But what reason is there to favour having to crack the throttle of an EFI bike at every hot start,

instead of fixing the mixture once and for all like I did,  besides no being able to spend $90 on that  FI diag tool?

 

My preowner rode and raced the "hard-to start WRF" for three years. 

He rode well, was single digit finisher on various races.

It never would fire up in-gear first push when hot. 

He simply thought it has to be that way.   He was plain wrong.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 07:13 AM.


  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 02, 2016 - 07:15 AM


I do agree 100% with above statement.  This is what I did when kicking my XT600 and TT600, for over a decade.

 

But what reason is there to favour having to crack the throttle of an EFI bike at every hot start,

instead of fixing the mixture once and for all like I did,  besides no being able to spend $90 on that  FI diag tool?

 

My preowner rode and raced the "hard-to start WRF" for three years. 

He rode well, was single digit finisher on various races.

It never would fire up in-gear first push when hot. 

He simply thought it has to be that way.   He was plain wrong.

 

because your not FIXING the mixture it was already Stoic and set correctly at the factory! HOW CAN YOU FIX SOMETHING THATS NOT BROKEN!!!

 

quote But what reason is there to favour having to crack the throttle of an EFI bike at every hot start

BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THIS PARTICULAR BIKES STARTING PROCEDURE! AS STATED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL YOUR JUST TOO LAZY TO READ IT OR OPEN THE THROTTLE BEFORE YOU PRESS THE BUTTON! THAT IS ALL THAT WAS EVER WRONG WITH YOUR BIKE!! OPERATOR ERROR!!!!

damn your dense!!  :banghead:   :cry:   :lame:  :thumbsdn:  :naughty: 



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 07:16 AM


I will ask him what he thinks about leaning out the CO..

Don't forget, my WRF idles at stoichiometric mixture only with CO setting at -26

Hence, the values we're playing with all are on the rich side.



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted January 02, 2016 - 07:21 AM


Don't forget, my WRF idles at stoichiometric mixture only with CO setting at -26

Hence, the values we're playing with all are on the rich side.

 

this is the only post you've made that is starting to make any sense yes lets set the mixture to 14.7:1 whatever that setting needs to be i will agree with. but according to the guy who actually tested his it was already stoic to begin with before he made any adjustments.

so if your going to give that advice i will support it.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted January 02, 2016 - 07:44 AM


because your not FIXING the mixture it was already Stoic and set correctly at the factory!

Oh, you want stoic?   What for?   Are you a treehugger? 

 

I don't want stoic, I want idle mixture to sit as close to max. power AFR as possible: http://www.mummbroth...ages/Stoich.gif

 

 

quote But what reason is there to favour having to crack the throttle of an EFI bike at every hot start

BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THIS PARTICULAR BIKES STARTING PROCEDURE!

meep!   That's a lie for everyone riding at moderate elevation, check this out and learn :ride:

https://www.youtube....h?v=PLn1dj__sCQ

btw.

dumping a buttload of icons in a post is a rather lame way of arguing against video taped facts :lol:


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, January 02, 2016 - 08:01 AM.





 
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