Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool - WR450 specific



150 replies to this topic
  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 20, 2015 - 10:59 PM

#81

In my previous post was trying your suggestion to set at +8 , then lower ROMs till it died, then try a -8. Basically it didn't work.

Now I just tried setting to 1500 rpms at 0 co. I could go to +30 and -30 ( max on the diag tool) and the motor would not die at each setting. Again max increase in ROMs was just in the positive co range.

Not sure if it matters but FYI, I'm running a drd exhaust.

I have a Bosch wideband sensor in my husky and maybe I find a way to use that to check co.

from -30 to +30 still idling?  :jawdrop: 

There's something seriously wrong with your bike or ECU! :naughty:

I'll try and make a vid showing off how to kill the engine by changing CO on my WR.

 

Exhaust should not matter much for idle adjustments, except for a very clogged up one, creating noticeabl backpressure even at idle. :devil:

 

Hook up the Bosch wideband and check yer AFR:

Grab some "leftover" WR header, some O² sensor threading off some other junkyard's part and

have someone with stainless steel welding capability put the threading into the header. 

That is exactly what I had a shop done when I was developing the FI for my WR400F

 

My bike turns stochimetrically lean (AFR > 14.7:1) below CO setting of -25.

-25 and higher reads rich (not wideband here, just the stock euro four wire WR O² sensor)



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 21, 2015 - 07:15 AM

#82

Now I just tried setting to 1500 rpms at 0 co. I could go to +30 and -30 ( max on the diag tool) and the motor would not die at each setting. Again max increase in ROMs was just in the positive co range.

*cough* As promised I tried to do that today and make a video of it:Turns out it is no so easy to do this at +3°C, two minutes from my home

(no alive neigbors, right at a cemetery's wall)Either the engine wasn't really warm or I was in a hurry, anyhow, here's what happened:

- I started at my standard CO setting of -19

- I could go lean to -30 (maxxed out) and she was stalling only then

- back to -19 and up toward the positive range it died at CO +2 (that section is the first video)

This would give ( -30 +  +2 )  / 2  = -28 / 2 = -14 ,  hence my -19 seems a tad lean.

 

The wobbly vid, of the search of upper limit, done singlehandedly

https://www.youtube....h?v=A_6EMua89Ow

 

 

In the second attempt (youtube is still "processing" it) the engine died at

exactly -30 and -4 respectively . That would suggest CO setting of  -17

Finally heres the second vid

https://youtu.be/Zy70oG8bk1Y

 

 

BUT I had to turn idle down to a torturing 1300 rpms to see that effect. :(

With your 1500 rpms I can imagine that -30 and +30 won't stall the engine.

 

 

Remember, I went for that -19 or -20 after measuring stoichiometric mixture at -26

("just a bit richer than perfect AFR") see this thread: http://www.thumperta.../#entry12497148

 

I must admit that finding the good CO value by searching for stalling limits was not easy. 

One should warm up the bike really well, in winter maybe even block the radiators to prevent excessive cooling at idle.

Doing that in 30°C summer it was much more straight forward: :ride:

I recall squatting besides the idling engine and stepping CO up or down in a much slower fashion,

where one would here changing idle rpms and sound, right before stalling.

Today I wanted to get over with it fast (the second vid still is 148MB, youtube is still chewing on it) :banghead: .

 

 

Anyhow today I got me this http://www.ebay.at/i...-/301799354964?

for X-mas, due on Dec. 30th. With that thing I'll augment my findings with real AFR numbers.

 

 

What is left is the vid showing that positive CO setting would be too rich for really low idle rpms.

You guys can try that engine stall limits dedection and set you CO right in the middle of said limits.

Or do some simple trial and error with CO setting of -20, -10, 0, 10, 20 and check when the bike will e-start w/o throttle in gear.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 21, 2015 - 08:51 AM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 21, 2015 - 07:55 AM

#83

Well till I can figure another way, I'm sticking with this method.

Set a higher co number at a certain rpm. Then lean the co and watch the rpms climb, then start to fall. Take note of the co where the rpms were the greatest, then go +co a couple.

I'll try to use the wide band o2 off my husky when I get a chance.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 21, 2015 - 08:14 AM

#84

Well till I can figure another way, I'm sticking with this method.

Set a higher co number at a certain rpm. Then lean the co and watch the rpms climb, then start to fall. Take note of the co where the rpms were the greatest, then go +co a couple.

 

Very good.  Idle rpm rise because for the set amount of air (fixed idle knob setting) the leaner mixture does produce more power.
As soon as you becom too lean, (loosing power) idle rpms will drop again.

 

On this chart you are starting at the very left (rich CO) step towards lean an memorize CO setting for top rpm.

And even before actually becomming stoichiometrically lean you'll notice the rpms dropping again.

Stoich.gif

 

Sound like a good method to me. Only thing I hate are the jumpy FI tool's rpm indications.

 I'll try to use the wide band o2 off my husky when I get a chance.

 

That of course is the way to go, simply set CO to a value that'll yield an AFR of 13 (I'd stay clear of too rich an idle):

afr_lambda.jpg



  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 21, 2015 - 09:03 AM

#85

I tried my method again last night and again came up with a +2 at max rpms so I set it at +4. The only question why are you getting such a large - value? If yours is right then its possible I might have a small air leak, although my bike hasn't been apart. Or.....there is just enough difference between all the bikes.

I'm at 1200' elevation, it was 55degs outside. The bike was warm.

I need to research what values are required to use that o2 sensor I have on my husky.

Personally I'm thinking there is something else going in with the "restart" issue I have going in while riding. Sometimes it lights right up, sometimes it won't.

  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 21, 2015 - 10:00 AM

#86

What are your thoughts on this.

Would welding the "o2 bung" to my stock slipon pipe (before the muffler) work instead of welding it to the engine header pipe, or is there to much of a chance the connection between the 2 pipes suck in air?

My thought is having a simple solution that I can share easily enough between other bikes.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 21, 2015 - 11:15 AM

#87

What are your thoughts on this.

Would welding the "o2 bung" to my stock slipon pipe (before the muffler) work instead of welding it to the engine header pipe, or is there to much of a chance the connection between the 2 pipes suck in air?

 

Air tightness is a must. Them O² sensors are really sensitive to minimal O² presence in exhaust gas.

Would have someone weld an O²sensor compatible (stainless steel) threading into the header a feasible option?

(That what I had done to my WR400F's header, by a we can weld anything shop.

 They even welded a crack in that WR400F's left engine case with the case installed,

we only took out the shift lever and drive sprocket seal before applying heat)

 

You then could screw in a standard O² plug when riding w/o sensor.

 

 

 

My thought is having a simple solution that I can share easily enough between other bikes.

 

Hmm. The "header with sensor" idea would limit you to bikes where the header does fit.

(basically various post 2011 WRFs, maybe YZs w/o reversed cylinders..)

I can see why sticking the sensor into the muffler sounds appaling to you. 

But I've no idea how well one can get the junction to seal airtight.



  • 270winchester

Posted December 21, 2015 - 02:32 PM

#88

Rowdy, why are you dividing the mean by 2? I missed that the first time I read thru your step-by-step process.

Edited by 270winchester, December 21, 2015 - 02:33 PM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 21, 2015 - 05:50 PM

#89

He's finding the farthest "lean" point and the farthest "rich" point that the engine will run at. So he's taking the average between the 2 to find "center" or the value he's using for his CO.



  • AtomicGeo

Posted December 21, 2015 - 06:14 PM

#90

He's finding the farthest "lean" point and the farthest "rich" point that the engine will run at. So he's taking the average between the 2 to find "center" or the value he's using for his CO.

 

Why?  Based on the curve drawn above and the data table it's not linear...



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  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 21, 2015 - 10:15 PM

#91

He's finding the farthest "lean" point and the farthest "rich" point that the engine will run at. So he's taking the average between the 2 to find "center" or the value he's using for his CO.

Precisely! :thumbsup:



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 21, 2015 - 10:25 PM

#92

Why?  Based on the curve drawn above and the data table it's not linear...

Well, I'm assuming the engine dies somewhere at the downward shoulder (rich) left of "top power" and somwhere to the right (lean) of top power. 

Wanting to get in between them I'm setting CO to the average of those two limits, by a rather coarse method,

especially as I have no idea what "one step" of CO setting actually is.

- a percentage of a base value?

- a fixed amount of injection timing? (would fit to higher number is richer as well)

 

The curve is that flat around "top power" that the inherent instability of idle rpms around 1300

make finding the "highest power" point relatively tricky.

But then again flat curve means one doesn't have to hit the target +/-2 points.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 22, 2015 - 08:08 AM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 22, 2015 - 08:13 AM

#93

This would give ( -30 +  +2 )  / 2  = -28 / 2 = -14 ,  hence my -19 seems a tad lean.
 


Not to be picky and I realize your doing the math but if your looking for the middle between these 2 values then you would have to add your (-30) which is 30 steps back to 0 + the 2 steps in the positive direction for a difference of 32 steps between the 2 values. Then /2 = 32/2 =16

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 22, 2015 - 08:29 AM

#94

Not to be picky and I realize your doing the math but if your looking for the middle between these 2 values then you would have to add your (-30) which is 30 steps back to 0 + the 2 steps in the positive direction for a difference of 32 steps between the 2 values. Then /2 = 32/2 =16

Not quite, as I need the absolute number to set the CO to, not just "half of the range", lets see:

 

-30 and +2 are 32 steps apart: correct,

half of that range is 16 steps, correct ,

but 16 steps "from low end upwards"  is  -30 +16  = -14

and 16 steps "from top downwards"  is +2  -16 =  -14

 

The formula for "average"  =  ( x1 + x2 + x3 + ... + xn ) / n 

works for all x, negative as well as positive numbers.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 22, 2015 - 08:31 AM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 22, 2015 - 09:50 AM

#95

The biggest thing that worries me is why you have to use such a large -neg value for your CO. What are you going to do when the weather warms up? you don't have that

much room to lean it out when it becomes hot outside.

 

Since we don't have anything clear to compare it to, its not such an easy thing.

 

When you have your diagnostic tool connected and powered up, engine not running, it shows rpms. (0rpms of course since the bike isn't running)

About what rpm's is your starter turning your bike over at? I'm wondering if this also might not have something to do

with the "starts on the first time" thing. I realize that the meter reading is all over the place but a ball park figure would be interesting to me.

 

I tried to look up the part number of the o2 sensor I have but couldn't find a wiring diagram for it. It has 2 white / 2 black wires off of it. It does appear that it

is a narrow band sensor so It might not be worth while to take the time to play with. I'm sure I could tap into the wires and find out whats what if I need it to.



  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 22, 2015 - 10:32 AM

#96

It also dawned on me that the header your using doesn't have the large "can" on it. (excuse me for not

knowing what it is). I wonder if that is changing anything.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 22, 2015 - 01:44 PM

#97

The biggest thing that worries me is why you have to use such a large -neg value for your CO. What are you going to do when the weather warms up? you don't have that

much room to lean it out when it becomes hot outside.

Rest assured, the initials measurement were done during the hottest summer austrian has seen since god knows when.
I could imagine - if I push me beyond experience - that I might have an extremely clogged airfilter,

one that only lets pass an (by YAMAHA) unanticipated amount of air through.  I'd doubt that.

 

If I find some time I could hook up the O² sensor header, and check for stoichiometrtic AFR with air filter installed and removed.

Then I'd have the CO number from hot summer (with airfilter) and two numbers from dense, cold winter air.

That way we could estimate how good the ambient (coolant temp / air temp / barometric pressure) and MAP sensors

are being merge into the ECU's injection formula.  If that ECU is really good I'd seen exactly the same CO trip the O²sensor towards lean. 

That would mean the ECU automatically compensates for all ambient parameter changes relevant for mixture setup.

 

 

 

When you have your diagnostic tool connected and powered up, engine not running, it shows rpms. (0rpms of course since the bike isn't running)

About what rpm's is your starter turning your bike over at? I'm wondering if this also might not have something to do

with the "starts on the first time" thing. I realize that the meter reading is all over the place but a ball park figure would be interesting to me.

Painfull suggestion, (poor starter) but I'll give it at try.

 

 

 

I tried to look up the part number of the o2 sensor I have but couldn't find a wiring diagram for it. It has 2 white / 2 black wires off of it. It does appear that it

is a narrow band sensor so It might not be worth while to take the time to play with. I'm sure I could tap into the wires and find out whats what if I need it to.

It certainly is narrow band. Bosch wideband sensors have 6 wires. 

But at least I can help with the O2 sensor:

black/black is sensor heating
blue /white is sensor output  (signal/ground)

see my augmentend schematic (O² sensor is #36):

Vehicle
Yamaha WR450F (2012)
Vehicle Yamaha WR450F (2012)
Last Updated December 22, 2015

 


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 22, 2015 - 01:59 PM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 22, 2015 - 01:50 PM

#98

It also dawned on me that the header your using doesn't have the large "can" on it. (excuse me for not

knowing what it is). I wonder if that is changing anything.

The power bomb?  Frankly, I'n not sure what that thing should be doing for me at all.

Looks cool, acts on exhaust side only, so I'd figure it won't mess up intake charge AFR,

at best with a lot of imagination it might help/hamper cylinder fillup, but I'm pretty positive that it won't change the mixture. (can't proove that, though)


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 22, 2015 - 02:06 PM.


  • bad455

Posted December 29, 2015 - 07:50 PM

#99

Had a bike that would not start hot,throttle open to grip line, no throttle etc,etc,etc.New 2015 comp ecu,fmf,uncorked air box,throttle screw.Had dealer set to +10 recommendation found around the Internet.Bike ran rich and blubbery everywhere.took right back set it to +4.hot start improved 50%.Now with throttle held barely open, just taking slack out, bike in neutral.Cold start pulling (choke) enrichment had always been almost perfect.My altitude is 4500-8500.Side note was hot start at altitude, bike would start every time with enrichment pulled.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 30, 2015 - 11:56 AM


Side note was hot start at altitude, bike would start every time with enrichment pulled.

Now if you'd like to be able to fire her up w/o having to pull that hot start, just give CO= 0 or (daredevil) CO= -5 a try. :thumbsup:

 

Hint:

That way you could leave both hands on the bars, clutch in, throttle shut, button press and off you go again. :jawdrop:

 

If you don't like it go back to your current settiing, trying is free.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 31, 2015 - 01:12 AM.





 
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