Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool - WR450 specific



150 replies to this topic
  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 14, 2015 - 11:11 PM

#41

WRF-Rowdy "The CO values I arrived at looked impressively unplausible, perfect mixture (fuel:air, 1:14)"

 

So does your reading mean that the AFR is 13.5:1 and what AFR does 0.4 volts equal?

 

The YAMAHA O² Sensor is or the "old" type, e.g. it only shows lean or rich, with a very steep curve around 14.7:1

It it not possible to "set the mixture to 14.7:1" due to the super steep characterisitics around perfect AFR

you'll end up lean (0 V) or rich (> ~0.7 V)  Typical electronics therefore use a Voltage up 0.4 V as htreshold.

 

Here are the WRF ECU CO values vs. O² sensor voltages:

http://www.thumperta.../#entry12497148

Note the drastic jump in O² voltage between -25 CO and -26 CO

 

Here's an O²sensor's  voltage characterisitcs:

http://www.marshalli...fuelgauges2.gif

You can see how step the curve is around 14.7:1


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 15, 2015 - 01:43 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 15, 2015 - 12:28 AM

#42

In case you guys don't believe that an EFI  WR450F will e-start on push of the button hot or cold

here's some "video proof" that should be able to debunk the myth of an EFI bike "needing" throttle to e-start:

 

cold start in the garage today (ambient temp 12°C -ish) :

https://www.youtube....h?v=AA5Um0zQtlk

give the smoothness of idle after pushing in the "choke" button, she probably would have fired up even w/o it pulled,

after all the garage isn't really cold.

 

 

hot start 10mins later (ambient temp 4°C)

https://www.youtube....h?v=PLn1dj__sCQ

you can tell that a new battery is in order for christmas.

The current one is the one I bought the bike with, from the pre owner,

no idea how old she is, but  the second crank was rather mediocre.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 15, 2015 - 01:17 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 15, 2015 - 02:37 AM

#43

Could you post a picture of the location of the o2 bung in your exhaust? I looked at the euro parts fiche for the WR450 exhaust and can not find any pictures that show the bung in the head pipe. If you could post the part number for the head pipe that would be great also. 

That is the PITA with those fiches.  Whenever I want to order some "euro" part I don't find it in those fiches. 

Back with the '03 WRF the euro head lamp and euro mask was very hard to identify part# wise 

(european models had to feature an E2 ceritifed head light with shitty but certified twin filament 35W bulb, US had the glass head lamp wiht H4 halogen lamp)

 

Normally we'd be stuck with the euro muffler + header, complete with O² sensor and closed loop castrated ECU.

For an extra grand we get a "racing kit" containing among other things

a second (US) Muffler+exhaust, some plugs (for O² harness disconnection)

and a tiny little device that turns the ECU into the programmable "racing" ECU.

 

Here's the pic of the genuine YAMAHA euro-header I use if I want to check O² for lean or rich:

20151215_1045111.jpg

Four wires: two for sensor heating during cold exhaust, the other two are the one's to stick your Voltmeter into.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 15, 2015 - 04:03 AM.


  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 15, 2015 - 01:55 PM

#44

If your into that kind of stuff, Dyno-jet has some stuff.

 

http://www.dynojetwb...plete_kits.aspx



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 15, 2015 - 04:53 PM

#45

If your into that kind of stuff, Dyno-jet has some stuff.

 

http://www.dynojetwb...plete_kits.aspx

That of  course would be the ultimate tuning tool, no more guessing or hearsay. 

The 250 is a little bit steep though, but then it's a wide band sensor complete w/ electronics... :thumbsup:

 

Tempting indeed, at only $130

: http://www.ebay.com/...0FUohXJ&vxp=mtr


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 15, 2015 - 05:11 PM.


  • Kx250FRiDeR651

Posted December 16, 2015 - 07:04 PM

#46

Where can you buy the diag tool?

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 17, 2015 - 03:59 AM

#47

Where can you buy the diag tool?

I ordered mine here http://www.cmsnl.com...ool_9089003182/



  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 17, 2015 - 09:19 PM

#48


I've got the euro muffler and header, too, (complete with O² sensor) so I swapped it in for some reaearch:

I've deliberately set the CO to -28 (which has even MY bike idle lean, check with O² sensor) and a "normal" fuel mapping:
the O² Voltage drops to zero (=lean) only and only when the throttle is almost at idle,
any controllable amount of thottle above idle will have the O² reading jump to rich.

Furthermore, setting the FI fuel for min- throttle to super lean mapping values like -6 or -7 (I forgot) while having CO at 0(!)
will give you lean coasting at tiny throttle, that will instantly jump to rich when the ECU senses the throttle as being at idle.


Hence the WRF ECU definitely has two totally independend fuel mixture regimes:
- "throttle at idle" only CO setting is relevant, mapping as NO effect
- "thorttle NOT at idle" interpolate accoring to fuel mapping loaded CO value irrelevant

[/b]. :p :p

A few thing here.

1st, when your adjusting the throttle rpm with the grey knob, is this also re adjusting the tps sensor?

2nd when your pulling the grey knob out (cold start) are you now coming off the idle / co setting and are now in the low portion of the fi map?

My understanding is the tps needs needs to be set so the ecm knows where idle is. I'm not wondering if by you playing around with rpms your ecm is no longer mapped.

Next is that in your videos you are puling the grey knob to start. I know for myself that my bike as well as others starts right up doing that. However where my issue comes in is I will be riding, the bikes all warmed up. I can either stall the bike or just stop for a minute and sometimes the bike starts right back up (with out using the grey knob) and sometimes it will take 3 attempts.

So hopefully when your looking at all these numbers your actually looking at idle settings without the grey knob pulled.

Does anyone know if indeed that they grey knob is not putting the ecm in some different mode?

Thanks

Edited by Ride-n-Hard, December 17, 2015 - 09:20 PM.


  • tomerb

Posted December 18, 2015 - 05:51 PM

#49

A few thing here.

1st, when your adjusting the throttle rpm with the grey knob, is this also re adjusting the tps sensor?

2nd when your pulling the grey knob out (cold start) are you now coming off the idle / co setting and are now in the low portion of the fi map?

My understanding is the tps needs needs to be set so the ecm knows where idle is. I'm not wondering if by you playing around with rpms your ecm is no longer mapped.

Next is that in your videos you are puling the grey knob to start. I know for myself that my bike as well as others starts right up doing that. However where my issue comes in is I will be riding, the bikes all warmed up. I can either stall the bike or just stop for a minute and sometimes the bike starts right back up (with out using the grey knob) and sometimes it will take 3 attempts.

So hopefully when your looking at all these numbers your actually looking at idle settings without the grey knob pulled.

Does anyone know if indeed that they grey knob is not putting the ecm in some different mode?

Thanks

 

1st, when your adjusting the throttle rpm with the grey knob, is this also re adjusting the tps sensor?...........NO
 

2nd when your pulling the grey knob out (cold start) are you now coming off the idle / co setting and are now in the low portion of the fi map?.......NO
 

I have tried several TPS settings and nothing helped the bike to start better.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 19, 2015 - 01:10 AM

#50

A few thing here.

1st, when your adjusting the throttle rpm with the grey knob, is this also re adjusting the tps sensor?

2nd when your pulling the grey knob out (cold start) are you now coming off the idle / co setting and are now in the low portion of the fi map?

My understanding is the tps needs needs to be set so the ecm knows where idle is. I'm not wondering if by you playing around with rpms your ecm is no longer mapped.

Next is that in your videos you are puling the grey knob to start. I know for myself that my bike as well as others starts right up doing that. However where my issue comes in is I will be riding, the bikes all warmed up. I can either stall the bike or just stop for a minute and sometimes the bike starts right back up (with out using the grey knob) and sometimes it will take 3 attempts.

So hopefully when your looking at all these numbers your actually looking at idle settings without the grey knob pulled.

Does anyone know if indeed that they grey knob is not putting the ecm in some different mode?

Thanks

 

1st, 2nd : NO  It's just an air passage whose configuration the ECU knows about via the MAP sensor.

 

TPS is irrelevant for idle, the factory TPS adjustment instructions are far to coarse for precise idle adjustment

 

1st video (cold engine) I pulled the cold-start knob (=opened the additional AIR passage)

2nd video (hot engine) I made sure, the cold-start knob is NOT pulled.

All other measurements from other postings, the CO vs. O² readings, all hot-starts in gear

and all first day cold starts (in gear!) during summer(!) are done with cold-start NOT pulled.

 

Basically a correctly jetted idle doen't need "hot-start" knobs or "throttles cracked a tiny bit":

 

"The bike was idling nicely at closed throttle before you stalled it,

why should you need to create a different mixture to start it up again?"

 

What the second video should demonstrate is, that as I adjusted my CO correctly

I never ever need to mess neither throttle NOR knob to fire up the hot engine!

 

 

re: hot-start/cold-start button

 

That device can be pulled (= opening the additional air passage wholly) or tweaked, turned in not-pulled position (= adjusting the additional air passage).

Dialling in "max idle rpm" you will find that you practically cannot pull the button out anymore as it's in its max airpassage position already.

 

The throttle position at closed throttle doesn't allow for engine idling, it'll die when the knob is set to "min. air passage".

E.g. the TPS value has nothing to do with idle speed regulation, it is always the same value, "closed butterfly".

Idle speed is adjusted only by tweaking the additional air passage throughput by turning the knob.

In-gear e-starting is adjusted only by weaking the CO setting.

 

In all engine startup cases (hot/cold, e-start/kick) the ECU senses

1) the MAP during cranking!  (mainfold pressure, directly and precisely proportional to real time air throughput)

2) adds in coolant-temp (cold/hot engine => enrichment mapping for cold starts),

3) intake air temp (density factor 1),

4) "static MAP before cranking" (density factor 2, altitude dependend)

5) fuel pressure

6) the famous CO setting (this unit-less number shifts the whole calculation towards rich or lean)

and calculates the injection duration (= amount of fuel)

 

So basically the knob is totally unnecessary, after dialling in decend idle speed when hot,

IF AND ONLY IF the CO value was trimmed so that above resulting mixture is perfect.

 

However, with engine and oil really cold, the internal friction can become too big,

so that the power generated by the combustible charge at closed throttle is NOT sufficient to overcome said friction.

THAT is the only reason why we need to be able to "pull the knob":

more air (sensed by ECU via MAP resulting in more fuel) helps to generate enough power to overcome the cold engine's internal friction. 

 

The amount of fuel lost due to condensing on the cold intake surfaces (= leaning of idle mixture)

can easily be compensated by the ECU itself, being aware of the engine temp. 

That is the reason why my bike in summer (20°C) starts cold (engine at 20°C), IN GEAR, via e-start, WITHOUT throttle  instantly

That is the reason why it won't do so at 3°C (oil too thick for the idle power for low rpm summer idle).

 

As you can see the throttle cracking is totally unnecessary. It is a very rude, coarse method of

transitioning from above CO driven idle mixture processing towards Power Tuner Mapping processing.


1st, when your adjusting the throttle rpm with the grey knob, is this also re adjusting the tps sensor?...........NO
 

2nd when your pulling the grey knob out (cold start) are you now coming off the idle / co setting and are now in the low portion of the fi map?.......NO
 

I have tried several TPS settings and nothing helped the bike to start better.

100% true.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 19, 2015 - 01:22 AM.


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  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 19, 2015 - 01:42 AM

#51

regarding the "cracked throttle with cranking":

 

I'm wondering how that helps hot starting. I've had a very hard time the first week with my bike in the woods. (CO and all unchanged).

 

Comming from XT600/TT600 I'm able to kick while holding the throttle minimally cracked. :ride:

 

The WR400F, once the idle mixture was ajdusted, would even start when holding in decomp 30% (no need to search for TDC)

 

From my '2003 WRF I got accustomed to e-starting (the slightly rich idling) bike w/o throttle,

and pulling the grand handlbar mounted(!) hot-start lever, while holding in the clutch.

somewhere between un-pulled and fully-pulled hot-start she'd fire up, everytime. :thumbsup:

 

 

But that week in the woods this year, my new '2012 WRF gave me a really hard time e-starting her,

even when not in gear (embarassing PITA to have to get out of gear; like them LC4 KTMs of old). 

As nothing helped (0 throttle, tiny throttle, transitioning from "0 thr". to "tiny thr." while cranking)

I had to resort to neutral and slightly pulling the knob to e-start. 

After the battery was drained too much, I've even had to kick.

 

Maybe I was too excited, huffing and puffing in the woods, but even starting with the throttle slightly cracked didn't help.

Or the CO was way too much off perfect mixture.

 

 

That all ended instantly (after said week was over :cry: ) when back home the FI Diag. tool arrived

and I've set the CO to "best idle", which appeared to be around -20 -ish for my bike.  :facepalm:

 

She now starts better (in gear!) and easier (no throttle cracking, no knobbing around, no need to kick) than anything I've ever owned.

 

and still has the same, old battery I bought it with from the preowner.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 19, 2015 - 07:43 AM.


  • 270winchester

Posted December 19, 2015 - 12:02 PM

#52

-20??? I thought we were inserting positive numbers. When I adjusted mine, the default was 0. I bumped it up to +8... I couldn't really tell the difference in starting. I still have to jab the button 2 or 3 times and or crack the throttle.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 19, 2015 - 01:23 PM

#53

-20??? I thought we were inserting positive numbers. When I adjusted mine, the default was 0. I bumped it up to +8... I couldn't really tell the difference in starting. I still have to jab the button 2 or 3 times and or crack the throttle.

Exactly what I did, with exactly the same result. :banghead:

 

Come to the dark side, try -18 and be enlightened. :jawdrop:

 

 

See http://www.thumperta.../#entry12497148

for the air fuel ratio vs. CO adjustment numbers:

Stochiometrically perfect (14.7:1) air fuel mixture is at CO = -25, for my bike,in its current configuration.

Best power would then be a little on the rich side, hence my recommendation to try -18 (yes, minus sixteen!)

or -20 as I did, these numbers are not extremely sensitive the only thing I found is anything above -10

does hamper idle rpm, 0 is rich, and +8 is almost unstartable with e-start when hot.

 

Try this:

with CO at your +8 and engine fully warmed up, turn down idle speed till engine dies, and is requiring a little throttle to idle.

Don't touch idle speed, but set CO to -18 or and be amazed, that the bike now idles. :devil:

 

And should you want to perfectly tweak CO for your bike (filter, exhaust, fuel type...) 

search for the CO setting that allows the lowest idling rpms (that is the reason why the CO setting screen shows rpm, too)

- store the value (perfect for your bike, can be quite different from mine),

- get idle rpms back to ~1800 and

- enjoy a perfectly starting bike. :thumbsup:


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 19, 2015 - 01:39 PM.


  • 270winchester

Posted December 19, 2015 - 04:55 PM

#54

Exactly what I did, with exactly the same result. :banghead:

Come to the dark side, try -18 and be enlightened. :jawdrop:


See http://www.thumperta.../#entry12497148
for the air fuel ratio vs. CO adjustment numbers:
Stochiometrically perfect (14.7:1) air fuel mixture is at CO = -25, for my bike,in its current configuration.
Best power would then be a little on the rich side, hence my recommendation to try -18 (yes, minus sixteen!)
or -20 as I did, these numbers are not extremely sensitive the only thing I found is anything above -10
does hamper idle rpm, 0 is rich, and +8 is almost unstartable with e-start when hot.

Try this:
with CO at your +8 and engine fully warmed up, turn down idle speed till engine dies, and is requiring a little throttle to idle.
Don't touch idle speed, but set CO to -18 or and be amazed, that the bike now idles. :devil:

And should you want to perfectly tweak CO for your bike (filter, exhaust, fuel type...)
search for the CO setting that allows the lowest idling rpms (that is the reason why the CO setting screen shows rpm, too)
- store the value (perfect for your bike, can be quite different from mine),
- get idle rpms back to ~1800 and
- enjoy a perfectly starting bike. :thumbsup:


Interesting stuff. I may try it the next time I get the wr out. I wonder if all of the FI tools are the same. Meaning, are they all set up so that a -18 is a -18 and a+18 is a +18 on all the various tools. Also, are you saying that your preferred setting is richer or leaner at idle compared to the stock setting of 0?

  • Ride-n-Hard

Posted December 19, 2015 - 06:54 PM

#55

If rotating the grey knob is adjusting the air to richen or lean the fuel mixture, and a by product of that is varying the rpm, then it would seem that there should be a point where the mixture is correct.

For an example, say 1800rpm is the optimal point where the air / fuel ratio is correct. Then if you lean the mixture the rpm should increase. If you richen the mixture the rpm drops. (All to a point though).

There must be something else going on still.

  • Bass Mechanic

Posted December 19, 2015 - 07:43 PM

#56

I got my YZ450fx today and speaking with the top tech there he told me what they do to fix the starting issue and I was sworn to secrecy. But if you read my recent posts the answer is there. Turns out it has everything to do with compression or a lack of. And I know what they do to fix the issue and it has absolutely nothing to do with the co level

  • cadesdad

Posted December 19, 2015 - 08:23 PM

#57

Awesome ! ! Does the dealer "fix" work on the 12-15 WR450 as well. Also, please give a ride review as soon as you get the chance. The 12-15 WR450, YZ450FX, or the 250FX are going to be my next bike. I am especially interested in riders opinions who have experience with the 12-15 WR450. I currently have a 12 yz250f that I use for off road in and love it more than all of my previous yz big bores, mainly for the handling. I'm eager to discover if the reverse cylinder bikes are any better or equal to the cornering/handling manners of my 12. Thanks for your input, and enjoy that new bike.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 20, 2015 - 12:29 AM

#58

If rotating the grey knob is adjusting the air to richen or lean the fuel mixture, and a by product of that is varying the rpm, then it would seem that there should be a point where the mixture is correct.

For an example, say 1800rpm is the optimal point where the air / fuel ratio is correct. Then if you lean the mixture the rpm should increase. If you richen the mixture the rpm drops. (All to a point though).

There must be something else going on still.

 

Not quite so.  The knob controls amount of air when butterfly (throttle valve) ist closed.

The ECU "knows" about air available viathe MAP (manifold air pressure) sensor and

adds the exact amount of fuel to produce desired CO.   (that's why it is called "CO adjustment" it's an EPA / CARB thing)

 

If you provide an amount of air which the ECU completes by adding fuel to achieve a certain destination CO you might see 1400 rpms idle.

If you provide more air (which the ECU completes by adding more fuel) you will see 1800 rpms idle.

 

In both cases the air-to-fuel ratio (rich vs. lean) will be the same, indirectly specified by CO setting.

 

Otherwise changing idle air (= idle rpm) would have you run different AFRs, CARB and the other emission bodys wouldn't want that. :naughty:

 

The AFR is kept constant  by the ECU by adding fuel according to MAP sensor and CO-setting as long as the throttle stays closed.

 

 

But you really don't have to take my word for it,

there are "no secret Top Mechanics tricks",

grab to CO tool and search for the CO with highest idle

just like you'd do with any gasoline powered bike.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 20, 2015 - 01:50 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 20, 2015 - 01:23 AM

#59

Turns out it has everything to do with compression or a lack of. And I know what they do to fix the issue and it has absolutely nothing to do with the co level

Well, my initiall starting issues were with stock WR cams.

Then I adjusted the CO for perfect e-start still with stock WR cams.

After that I swapped in '05 YZ cams (intake + exhaust), trimmed the decomp pin and the bike still starts as perfectly as seen in my vids.

 

The only aspect which heavily relies on compression or more precisely the reduction of compression (decom pin) is e-startability:

Stock WR cams work great, in-gear + e-start.

Stock YZ cams kill e-start due to too much decomp.

Grinding down YZ decomp pin to WR decomp pin behaviour

(as describe in another thread by me)  did restore peerless e-startability .


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 20, 2015 - 01:52 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 20, 2015 - 01:39 AM

#60

Meaning, are they all set up so that a -18 is a -18 and a+18 is a +18 on all the various tools. Also, are you saying that your preferred setting is richer or leaner at idle compared to the stock setting of 0?

Them tools are simple electronic verisons of FCR idle mixture screw drivers.

They "send" -18 into the ECU (adjust "idle mixture screw" of old) hence it is the ECU

that turns a certain CO setting into a mixture, the FI tool is just an interface to the ECU's memory.

 

I'm very sure that all ECUs with same part number translate -18 into an identical

(albeit MAP, ambient-air temp, ambient-air pressure, fuel-pressure and coolant-temp adjusted) injection duration.

But it could be that there are manufacturing variations inside the ECUs with same part number,

like accuracy of time base, that might lead to slightly different behaviour.

 

The important point is: you should NOT COPY my CO setting blindly!

 

Use the  adjustment method laid out here and find your own "best starting CO value",

just let go of attributing any notion of rich or lean to specific numbers:

 

My bike runs rather rich at a CO setting of 0

If turning down idle till it stalls at CO=0, it will still idle at CO= -20 ! :jawdrop:

At -26(!) the O² sensor indicates lean (air fuel ratio > 14.7 :1 ),

anything from -25 upwards is on the rich side of AFR 14.7:1

 

So my bike idles best (lowest knob setting) with CO settings in the region of -20 to -16

 

..that is the CO setting where it starts really easily, in gear, by e-start button.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 20, 2015 - 04:51 AM.





 
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