Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool - WR450 specific



150 replies to this topic
  • jams33

Posted December 05, 2015 - 12:17 AM

#21

Every time I read one of these threads I just have to LOL if only the guys who have starting issues would just learn to crack the throttle when pressing the start button as is indicated in the owners manual your bike will start every time!
I have a 2013 and my buddy has a 2015 and they both had starting issues like everyone here describes.
After I showed my buddy how to start it, he has never had to press the button more than 1 time on any of the rides we have been on hot or cold, in gear or not it always starts!
So let me clarify what will not work
It won't start if you use NO throttle, it won't start if you attempt to add throttle while cranking. It will not start if the throttle is open too much. It won't start if you have to much and adjust while cranking.
Ok with that said, you can use the alignment marks on the throttle if you like, I prefer to just feel it. The only way I can describe it is to twist the throttle so you can tell that you've taken the slack out of the cable and just barely cracked the throttle blade open.
In the nearly 3 years and 110 hours on my wr i have never even touched the enrichment plunger even when it was 32 degrees out, in fact I've started it close to 0 F without ever doing anything but crack the gas and hit the button. I have a voyager computer and for reference if I start and hold the throttle in the same place the bike idles at about 2400 rpm ( factory spec is 2100 and I set mine to 1700)
Now just to further prove my point, my bike has the exhaust cam re-degreed to the YZ spec and I have the comp ecu
My friends bike is totally stock and they both start exactly the same way.
Rather than waste your time and money trying to adjust the c0 level which was already stated here had little affect, I recommend you buy an earth x battery which will save you 5 lbs but more importantly will give you a much more aggressive starter which also helps especially when in gear.
I am gong to prove my point 1 step further!
The group I ride with also has a husquvarna, KTM and suzuki and a newer YZ 450 which are all fuel injected!
THEY ALL HAVE PROBLEMS STARTING UNLESS YOU CRACK THE THROTTLE!!
I've watched those guys kick and kick and press the button with the same result until I suggested they try cracking the throttle!
Now each bike fires up on the first press or kick every time!
So for those of you who are having this issue for the love of God!!! Please try following this advice! It is simple, free and stated in your owners manual!
I recently almost bought a 2016 KTM 450 xc and experienced the EXACT SAME ISSUE cracked the throttle with no choke/enrichment while cold and again while hot at the dealer and had same results as I expressed above.
The only way this bike will start every time without touching the gas is if you turn up the idle to 2400 rpm which I do not recommend. But if your too lazy or simply cannot follow instructions that may be your best bet.
 
Another point to further support my observation.. another poster above reported the dealer had left the enrichment on and that is why the bike was starting so well..
the plunger does nothing more then allow more air into the intake. it is the exact same thing as cracking the throttle open with the exception that the TPS is being rotated slightly.
the TPS tells the ecu where the throttle position is. this information tells the ecu that a little more fuel is also needed.
the plunger is just an easier way to hold the idle at a higher setting as the bike warms up.
 
if you try to use enrichment when the bike is hot it will make it lean because the ecu only adds fuel when the water temp is cold.
Now go out to the garage and follow this exactly, no enrichment, in neutral, crack, hold, press bingo!
If you would like I can make you a you tube video trying to start it in ANY other configuration and it will crank, crank away with no luck, crack the gas and bingo! Every time!
i also find that the bike needs slightly less throttle when hot and sometimes it will start with no throttle when hot, but to make sure it fires i find just a slight amount just like when cold gets it to fire every single time.
If any of you don't believe me, you can pay 200.00 of my plane ticket fully refundable if I am wrong and I'll show you how to start your bike!
Happy trails!


Thanks for the starting info, I want it for a different reason though. Don't have an issue starting mine, luckily.

  • tomerb

Posted December 05, 2015 - 03:48 PM

#22

Bass Mechanic, on 02 Dec 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Every time I read one of these threads I just have to LOL if only the guys who have starting issues would just learn to crack the throttle when pressing the start button as is indicated in the owners manual your bike will start every time!
I have a 2013 and my buddy has a 2015 and they both had starting issues like everyone here describes.
After I showed my buddy how to start it, he has never had to press the button more than 1 time on any of the rides we have been on hot or cold, in gear or not it always starts!

So let me clarify what will not work
It won't start if you use NO throttle, it won't start if you attempt to add throttle while cranking. It will not start if the throttle is open too much. It won't start if you have to much and adjust while cranking.

Ok with that said, you can use the alignment marks on the throttle if you like, I prefer to just feel it. The only way I can describe it is to twist the throttle so you can tell that you've taken the slack out of the cable and just barely cracked the throttle blade open.
In the nearly 3 years and 110 hours on my wr i have never even touched the enrichment plunger even when it was 32 degrees out, in fact I've started it close to 0 F without ever doing anything but crack the gas and hit the button. I have a voyager computer and for reference if I start and hold the throttle in the same place the bike idles at about 2400 rpm ( factory spec is 2100 and I set mine to 1700)
Now just to further prove my point, my bike has the exhaust cam re-degreed to the YZ spec and I have the comp ecu
My friends bike is totally stock and they both start exactly the same way.
Rather than waste your time and money trying to adjust the c0 level which was already stated here had little affect, I recommend you buy an earth x battery which will save you 5 lbs but more importantly will give you a much more aggressive starter which also helps especially when in gear.

I am gong to prove my point 1 step further!
The group I ride with also has a husquvarna, KTM and suzuki and a newer YZ 450 which are all fuel injected!
THEY ALL HAVE PROBLEMS STARTING UNLESS YOU CRACK THE THROTTLE!!

I've watched those guys kick and kick and press the button with the same result until I suggested they try cracking the throttle!
Now each bike fires up on the first press or kick every time!

So for those of you who are having this issue for the love of God!!! Please try following this advice! It is simple, free and stated in your owners manual!

I recently almost bought a 2016 KTM 450 xc and experienced the EXACT SAME ISSUE cracked the throttle with no choke/enrichment while cold and again while hot at the dealer and had same results as I expressed above.

The only way this bike will start every time without touching the gas is if you turn up the idle to 2400 rpm which I do not recommend. But if your too lazy or simply cannot follow instructions that may be your best bet.

 

Another point to further support my observation.. another poster above reported the dealer had left the enrichment on and that is why the bike was starting so well..

the plunger does nothing more then allow more air into the intake. it is the exact same thing as cracking the throttle open with the exception that the TPS is being rotated slightly.

the TPS tells the ecu where the throttle position is. this information tells the ecu that a little more fuel is also needed.

the plunger is just an easier way to hold the idle at a higher setting as the bike warms up.

 

if you try to use enrichment when the bike is hot it will make it lean because the ecu only adds fuel when the water temp is cold.

Now go out to the garage and follow this exactly, no enrichment, in neutral, crack, hold, press bingo!

If you would like I can make you a you tube video trying to start it in ANY other configuration and it will crank, crank away with no luck, crack the gas and bingo! Every time!

i also find that the bike needs slightly less throttle when hot and sometimes it will start with no throttle when hot, but to make sure it fires i find just a slight amount just like when cold gets it to fire every single time.

If any of you don't believe me, you can pay 200.00 of my plane ticket fully refundable if I am wrong and I'll show you how to start your bike!

Happy trails!

"if you try to use enrichment when the bike is hot it will make it lean because the ecu only adds fuel when the water temp is cold"

 

 

Where did you come up this info??

 



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted December 05, 2015 - 06:41 PM

#23

It's basic fuel injection operation, how would the ecu know the enrichment is activated? There is no switch for it so the only way to enrich a cold engine with fuel injection is to inject more fuel. All fuel injection systems especially ones that run in open loop calculate air density based on air temp and barometric pressure. If you have those values you can calculate the air density. Without the use of an o2 sensor (closed loop) there is no other way to determine if your mixture will be correct.
The throttle position sensor is used to calculate how much air flow along with RPM is occurring.
Just like on a carburetor bike there is a accelerator pump because when the throttle is snapped open and because air is so much less dense than fuel, fuel has to be added to match the In-rush of air until the fuel can flow from the float bowl through the Venturi.
On a FI motor the ecu controls the injector timing and duration .
If you crack open the bypass or enrichment valve your adding air to the engine and bypassing the throttle plate. So unless the intake temp is cold the ecu does not know more air is flowing through the intake. If our bikes came with a mass air flow sensor, it would have that data. Instead it uses a map sensor (manifold absolute pressure) to determine the airflow
The only time an engine needs enrichment is when it's cold and the ecu has total control of that
I guess in reality it may not run lean when warm just not as rich as when cold.
Air is more dense when cold which is why you need to either choke a carburetor or enrichment on fuel injection. The only thing the enrichment plunger does on this engine is allow it to idle faster because there is more air flowing

  • tomerb

Posted December 05, 2015 - 08:13 PM

#24

Bass Mechanic, on 05 Dec 2015 - 7:41 PM, said:

It's basic fuel injection operation, how would the ecu know the enrichment is activated? There is no switch for it so the only way to enrich a cold engine with fuel injection is to inject more fuel. All fuel injection systems especially ones that run in open loop calculate air density based on air temp and barometric pressure. If you have those values you can calculate the air density. Without the use of an o2 sensor (closed loop) there is no other way to determine if your mixture will be correct.
The throttle position sensor is used to calculate how much air flow along with RPM is occurring.
Just like on a carburetor bike there is a accelerator pump because when the throttle is snapped open and because air is so much less dense than fuel, fuel has to be added to match the In-rush of air until the fuel can flow from the float bowl through the Venturi.
On a FI motor the ecu controls the injector timing and duration .
If you crack open the bypass or enrichment valve your adding air to the engine and bypassing the throttle plate. So unless the intake temp is cold the ecu does not know more air is flowing through the intake. If our bikes came with a mass air flow sensor, it would have that data. Instead it uses a map sensor (manifold absolute pressure) to determine the airflow
The only time an engine needs enrichment is when it's cold and the ecu has total control of that
I guess in reality it may not run lean when warm just not as rich as when cold.
Air is more dense when cold which is why you need to either choke a carburetor or enrichment on fuel injection. The only thing the enrichment plunger does on this engine is allow it to idle faster because there is more air flowing

So how can it be an air bypass valve and an fuel enrichment valve at the same time?........ If it lets more air in it will lean out the air fuel mixture and be richer with more fuel.



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted December 05, 2015 - 10:26 PM

#25

So how can it be an air bypass valve and an fuel enrichment valve at the same time?........ If it lets more air in it will lean out the air fuel mixture and be richer with more fuel.


Because a throttle body on a fuel injection system only controls air flow, the fuel is injected and the amount of fuel is controlled by the ecu
When you twist the throttle all your controlling is the amount of air going to the motor. The mixture can be adjusted rich or lean because it is completely independent of your control.
A carburetor is mechanical, everything you do to it draws fuel into the airstream by means of vacuum at the Venturi or is pumped by mechanical means of the accelerator pump when you twist. All aspects of its mixture are changed mechanically by jetting.

With fuel injection the fuel is turned on or off and injected into the airstream. Whenever you open the throttle, manifold pressure decreases, the ecu calculates the amount of fuel needed and injects that amount accordingly. The fuel mixture is never too lean or too rich because the fuel tables built into the ecu dictate how rich or lean it should be based on manifold pressure (compensated for temperature which air density is calculated)
If you open the bypass, the ecu does not know the difference between you twisting the throttle slightly, or opening the bypass. The ecu only knows the manifold pressure dropped and it reacts by adding fuel.
And to your question, the MIXTURE is then decided by the ecu based on the parameters. The ecu has a table that adjusts the mixture further based on engine temp richer when cold.
A fuel injected engine is never too rich or lean because the ecu decides what it should be. Something a carburetor simply cannot do!

  • AtomicGeo

Posted December 11, 2015 - 02:08 PM

#26

Bass Mechanic's method of start works like a charm. :thumbsup:   Had my WR sitting around for a month in cold temps...followed his instructions...started on first crank.

 

Key was to follow like he said, don't twist the throttle at all, but just barely get the throttle cable to engage, and voila!



  • tomerb

Posted December 11, 2015 - 08:40 PM

#27

Bass Mechanic's method of starting does not work for me on 2012 or my 2014..............



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted December 11, 2015 - 10:20 PM

#28

Bass Mechanic's method of starting does not work for me on 2012 or my 2014..............

i find it hard to believe there is much if any difference between bikes. they are made on an assembly line with the same tune and same parts. it may have something to do with the idle speed setting which affects the amount the throttle plate is open.

try to play with a couple different throttle positions yours may need slightly more or less to find the sweet spot.

i know it sound difficult to get it right but after a while i dont even think about it. it just starts every time. try it in neutral. 



  • tomerb

Posted December 12, 2015 - 09:09 AM

#29

I think the idle speed is adjusted with air bleed and not the amount the throttle plate is open.



  • 270winchester

Posted December 12, 2015 - 11:56 AM

#30

So, is the new consensus that you do not need to bump up the CO? I agree that barely putting pressure on throttle usually allows it to start with a single jab or two. I'd like it to start like some of my other FI bikes where all you have to do is push it once, even if the bike sits a few months

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  • nd4spdbh

Posted December 12, 2015 - 02:14 PM

#31

the CO setting definitely needs to be changed.... sitting idiling with less than a minute produces a red hot glowing header..... thats WAY to lean.

 

 

 

 

That stated like base mechanic stated, just a lil tightening of the throttle cable and she starts almost every time with the first click of the button. 



  • tomerb

Posted December 12, 2015 - 03:18 PM

#32

No one knows how to check the timing with a degree wheel and a timing light on a 2012 WR 450 with the motor running.

 

No one knows what the cranking timing is when trying to start the bike, probably retarded too much and lean making it hard to start.

 

No one knows what the timing is at idle, and it is probably way retarded and burning into the exhaust turning the head pipe red.

 

No one has put a oxygen sensor into the exhaust to see what the Air/Fuel Ratio mixture is at idle, most likely 15.0:1- 16.0:1 

 

Why will my Raptor700, Rhino700 and Grizzly700 start with no special twisting of the throttle or pulling some air bypass knob?

There all single cylinder Yamaha's



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 14, 2015 - 12:40 PM

#33

Bass Mechanic's method of start works like a charm. :thumbsup:   Had my WR sitting around for a month in cold temps...followed his instructions...started on first crank.

 

Key was to follow like he said, don't twist the throttle at all, but just barely get the throttle cable to engage, and voila!

 

That's because both of your bikes run rich at idle, you didn't adjust CO properly (maybe not at all?). :devil:

Ever so slightly tweaking the throttle away from idle has the ECU switch from "CO mixture" to "Fuel mapping min. throttle mixture". :facepalm:

 

 

I've got the euro muffler and header, too,  (complete with O² sensor) so I swapped it in for some reaearch:

 

I've deliberately set the CO to -28 (which has even MY bike idle lean, check with O² sensor) and a "normal" fuel mapping:

the O² Voltage drops to zero (=lean) only and only when  the throttle is almost at idle,

any controllable amount of thottle above idle will have the O² reading jump to rich.

 

Furthermore, setting the FI fuel for min- throttle to super lean mapping values like -6 or -7 (I forgot) while having CO at 0(!)

will give you lean coasting at tiny throttle, that will instantly jump to rich when the ECU senses the throttle as being at idle.

 

 

Hence the WRF ECU definitely has two totally independend fuel mixture regimes:

- "throttle at idle"   only CO setting is relevant, mapping as NO effect

- "thorttle NOT at idle" interpolate accoring to fuel mapping loaded CO value irrelevant

 

The transition between those two modes is w/o "notch", no hunting or surging,

but the amount of throttle during which this transition is completed is very very small,

starting at a minsicule bit above idle.

 

 

So you guys can have all your beloved fuel and ignition mapping you want, setting them to ridiculously low values (as I once did) or

at super rich power tractor whatever settings. They do NOT, I repeat NOT chance the idle mixture the least.

Whatever you favourite mapping might be you can set idle mixture independently of it,

and you actually HAVE TO, if you want a  bike that simply fires up when going for the button, hot or cold.

 

I know what I'm talking about:

My '12 450 this summer - fresh from the pre owner - was a PITA to e-start hot in the woods:

It took at least three button start attempts + lots of praying/cursing, and sometimes not even putting it in neutral would help.

Buddy of mine who was present at these embarassingly shitty EFI demonstration of mine

reported that his old 450EXC fires up perfectly only after he played with the FCR's idle screw for days.

According to him 1/8 of a turn decided between #1 e-start or crappy bike.

 

So I got me the FI tool (= idle mixture screwdriver) and searched for best idle mixture,

the one where it would idle at as low as 1300 rpms. (that engine idle speed NEEDED a high, NEGATIVE CO setting)

Btw.

of course you can adjust CO with the engine running, that's why the CO adjust screen shows rpm, too.

The CO values I arrived at looked impressively unplausible, perfect mixture (fuel:air, 1:14) somewhere at CO = -24,

so I went for something in the -16 to -20 region, slightly rich idle helps when the bike isn't fully warmed up yet is my reasoning.

 

 

From then on I always started my bike hot or cold, in gear or in netural, w/o even touching the throttle!

The e-start button blips the cold bike (in summer, +25°C) needed to start up in gear w/o throttle or hot/choke-button were startling!

 

 

Let me repeat that in capitals for all desperate EFI fighter out there:

WITH THE CORRECT CO SETTING AN EFI-WRF WILL FIRE UP AT FIRST E-START BUTTON PUSH, HOT OR COLD

(definitely down to ~15°C ambient temp)

 

 

Just a couple days ago I decided to take her for a "winter" spin:

at +5C° I pulled the hot-start/choke-button and she fired up like a charm, w/o touching the throttle.

About 3 minutes later stupid me managed to brake before a red traffic light till engine standstill, not going for the clutch in time. (don't ask)

Clutch in, one button press (NO THROTTLE!)   and she was running again. :thumbsup:

 

 

 

SO

you can do the slightly cracked throttle thing, as I did for 2 decades on my XT600 and TT600.

Worked great for them carbed kick start bikes, but can be a bit tricky to achieve in race conditions :rolleyes:

 

or

you can do what the "hobby racer" I bought the WRF from was recommending:

"slightly pull to hotstart button while e-starting her." :banghead:

(absolutely stupid as you've got to be in neutral for that to work :facepalm: )

 

 

or  you get the idle mixture "yetting" right, once and for all. :p :p


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 14, 2015 - 01:39 PM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 14, 2015 - 12:52 PM

#34

the CO setting definitely needs to be changed.... sitting idiling with less than a minute produces a red hot glowing header..... thats WAY to lean.

While I can't speak for corked up CA green sticker WRFs I strongly recommend

you get some O² sensor attached (workshop?) before inferring "lean" from a glowing red WR header.

You might get a total suprise.  (In my book the glowing header is WR exhaust timing and not lean idle)



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted December 14, 2015 - 01:01 PM

#35

No one has put a oxygen sensor into the exhaust to see what the Air/Fuel Ratio mixture is at idle, most likely 15.0:1- 16.0:1 

*MEEP* I did. :p :p

The genuine YAMAHA euro header comes with a four wire O² sensor.

Hooking up a high impedance (read didital) Voltmeter to the sensor's wires (not the heating) one can not read AFR,

but one sees when the exhaut gas contains oxygen (e.g. lean burning), then to Voltage drop to below 0.4 V

Anything richer than perfect AFR with read higher then 0.4 V (that is right, the O² sensor is a voltage source,

albeit only delivering a minimal current, hence the need for a high impedance digital voltmeter)

 

and unless I turned CO down to ~ -24 I only go "rich" as reading. :jawdrop:

 

Thus any value the people dare to play with (typically 0 to 10  , as they don't no anything about the AFR,

results in an engine running rich.  Above +5 CO too rich to fire up reliably when hot.

 

So I bet your mixture is richer than 12:1 at idle :devil:


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, December 14, 2015 - 01:02 PM.


  • Spiritwalker2222

Posted December 14, 2015 - 01:24 PM

#36

Every time I read one of these threads I just have to LOL if only the guys who have starting issues would just learn to crack the throttle when pressing the start button as is indicated in the owners manual your bike will start every time!
I have a 2013 and my buddy has a 2015 and they both had starting issues like everyone here describes.
After I showed my buddy how to start it, he has never had to press the button more than 1 time on any of the rides we have been on hot or cold, in gear or not it always starts!
 

 

Bass Mechanic, I was lucky to get out this past weekend since it was so warm (just above 0). I tried opening the throttle just a slight amount once the throttle slack is removed. It seemed to work. I don't have the stock hand grips, so can't gauge by the 2 lines. My starting success was much higher than normal. I'm hoping once I get used to the right amount the bike will start right up all the time.



  • tomerb

Posted December 14, 2015 - 01:56 PM

#37

WRF-Rowdy "The CO values I arrived at looked impressively unplausible, perfect mixture (fuel:air, 1:14)"

 

So does your reading mean that the AFR is 13.5:1 and what AFR does 0.4 volts equal?



  • tomerb

Posted December 14, 2015 - 02:23 PM

#38

WRF-Rowdy, on 14 Dec 2015 - 2:01 PM, said:

*MEEP* I did. :p :p

The genuine YAMAHA euro header comes with a four wire O² sensor.

Hooking up a high impedance (read didital) Voltmeter to the sensor's wires (not the heating) one can not read AFR,

but one sees when the exhaut gas contains oxygen (e.g. lean burning), then to Voltage drop to below 0.4 V

Anything richer than perfect AFR with read higher then 0.4 V (that is right, the O² sensor is a voltage source,

albeit only delivering a minimal current, hence the need for a high impedance digital voltmeter)

 

and unless I turned CO down to ~ -24 I only go "rich" as reading. :jawdrop:

 

Thus any value the people dare to play with (typically 0 to 10  , as they don't no anything about the AFR,

results in an engine running rich.  Above +5 CO too rich to fire up reliably when hot.

 

So I bet your mixture is richer than 12:1 at idle :devil:

Could you post a picture of the location of the o2 bung in your exhaust? I looked at the euro parts fiche for the WR450 exhaust and can not find any pictures that show the bung in the head pipe. If you could post the part number for the head pipe that would be great also. 



  • Bass Mechanic

Posted December 14, 2015 - 05:53 PM

#39

Bass Mechanic, I was lucky to get out this past weekend since it was so warm (just above 0). I tried opening the throttle just a slight amount once the throttle slack is removed. It seemed to work. I don't have the stock hand grips, so can't gauge by the 2 lines. My starting success was much higher than normal. I'm hoping once I get used to the right amount the bike will start right up all the time.

Glad to hear that! I am hopeful that the more people who have these results and post here will convince the naysayers that there really is nothing wrong with the bike, just operator error. I say this because it is in the owners manual and it definitely works.
I am not surprised at the comments above about the o2 reading because if it idles once started fine there is no reason the mixture could be off by enough to cause it not to start.
IMO I think it has more to do with the decompressor. If the throttle is closed all the way it could be that there is not enough compression to light it off. When you crack the throttle a little you get more air in the cylinder to bring the compression up since the decompressor is holding the exhaust valve open slightly while cranking.
However opening it too far it simply won't start as most fuel injection engines don't like to start that way to begin with.

So the compromise is to either turn the idle speed up, open the enrichment or crack the throttle. Either will allow the right compression to light it off.

Think about it. With the exhaust valve open slightly, what little air gets into the cylinder through the nearly fully closed throttle can't make much compression with any of it leaking out the exhaust. Once you open it a tad now you have a full cylinder of air.
I don't know the mechanism in the valve train but maybe it can be adjusted? My guess is it is a pin that engages the valvetrain and therefore not adjustable.

  • chu

Posted December 14, 2015 - 06:28 PM

#40

The exhaust cam got revised in 12.  Maybe that's what screwed it up. 






 
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