Yamaha FI Diagnostic tool - WR450 specific

[Bass Mechanic]

Well, my initiall starting issues were with stock WR cams.

Then I adjusted the CO for perfect e-start still with stock WR cams.

After that I swapped in '05 YZ cams (intake + exhaust), trimmed the decomp pin and the bike still starts as perfectly as seen in my vids.

The only aspect which heavily relies on compression or more precisely the reduction of compression (decom pin) is e-startability:

Stock WR cams work great, in-gear + e-start.

Stock YZ cams kill e-start due to too much decomp.

Grinding down YZ decomp pin to WR decomp pin behaviour

(as describe in another thread by me) did restore peerless e-startability .

Bingo!

At least I can say it wasn't me who let the cat out of the bag!

I also noticed my 450FX starter spins with a bit more authority than my 13 WR 450 I can't wait to put my lithium battery in there to see how it starts.

I bet that even if your decompression mech is a little on the heavy side the bike still starts easier when it spins a little faster.

My dealer said they do their "modification" to every new bike they sell that has issues with e start (mostly WR) free of charge during setup and every bike they sell no longer has issues with starting. Maybe that's why mine starts so easy. But I do not think they discovered what the cause was yet when I bought my 2013 wr from them.

[avlisj]

What modification?

Thought you where saying simply crack the throttle to start.

[avlisj]

Bingo!

At least I can say it wasn't me who let the cat out of the bag!

I also noticed my 450FX starter spins with a bit more authority than my 13 WR 450 I can't wait to put my lithium battery in there to see how it starts.

I bet that even if your decompression mech is a little on the heavy side the bike still starts easier when it spins a little faster.

My dealer said they do their "modification" to every new bike they sell that has issues with e start (mostly WR) free of charge during setup and every bike they sell no longer has issues with starting. Maybe that's why mine starts so easy. But I do not think they discovered what the cause was yet when I bought my 2013 wr from them.

What modification?

Thought you where saying simply crack the throttle to start.

[Ride-n-Hard]

Yup, sounding like different cams, different timing ect....

[Bass Mechanic]

What modification?

Thought you where saying simply crack the throttle to start.

The modification makes the bike start without doing anything special

[avlisj]

TELL US WHAT IT IS please.

Adjust throttle cable slack so throttle is always cracked??

[Ride-n-Hard]

Sounds like both of you guysdont have stock engines then. Could be the difference.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Ride-n-Hard

[avlisj]

The modification makes the bike start without doing anything special

Comp ecu. Throttle stop out. Slip on fmf gytr muffler.

Nothing crazy

Would think that if a shop has a simple free mod to make the bike start better and someone knew about it. We could all know about it.

Do we need to buy the diagnostic tool or is it a simple throttle adjustment?

Seems bass mechanic seems to know

[WRF-Rowdy]

Sounds like both of you guysdont have stock engines then. Could be the difference.

Seems you didn't quite read my post fully. The CO adjustment was done with the stock WR cams.

 

The move to YZ cams came AFTER fixing the e-start issue,

and required adjusting YZ cam compression to WR cam level by grinding down the pin.

As soon as the starter was working against the same compression as with the stock WR cams

it was firing up with YZ cams as nicely as it did with the stock WR cams, in-gear w/o throttle,

thanks to perfect idle mixture.  The mixture is not dependend on cam type, it gets mixed by

the thrtolle housing and fuel injector, cams can't change AFR, only injection duration can.

 

Cam type is totally irrelevant, IF it is suitable for WR e-start (e.g. same compression as stock WR cams)

 

I now can swap YZ with WR cams as I please.  As the YZ cam pin is groudn down to provide e-startability

the bike start perfectly in-gear, w/o throttle in YZ-YZ, WR-YZ, or WR-WR cam configuration.

That swapping was what i did for various dyno runs, no need to touch CO setting.

 

The only thing that matters for ease of in-gear e-start w/o throttle cracking is CO adjustment, for any cam type.

Edited December 20, 2015 by WRF-Rowdy

[dustin99123]

screw this in and itll make the valves last longer, kinda limits whiskey throttle. WR engine with yz cams will eventually eat up the valve clearances

 

dirtbikethrottle.com

Edited December 20, 2015 by dustin99123

[Bass Mechanic]

Comp ecu. Throttle stop out. Slip on fmf gytr muffler.

Nothing crazy

Would think that if a shop has a simple free mod to make the bike start better and someone knew about it. We could all know about it.

Do we need to buy the diagnostic tool or is it a simple throttle adjustment?

Seems bass mechanic seems to know

read wrf-rowdy's posts he knows what he is talking about

[Ride-n-Hard]

This what I've found. FYI I don't have a o2 sensor.

I set to co to +8 and started the bike ( warmed up)This what I've found. FYI I don't have a o2 sensor.

I set to co to +8 and started the bike ( warmed up, grey knob in)

Turned the grey knob to the lowest idle that it finally stopped running at ~1200 Rpms.

The bike would not fire up. Set the co to -8. Bike still won't fire up.

Rotated grey knob till the bike fired up at ~1800 rps. ~10 clicks

I then set co back to 0 and set rpms to 1700

At co at +10 the rpmss fell to ~1600

At co at -13 the rpms fell to ~1650

At -5 ROMs went up to 1750

Then I set the rpms to ~1900 ( book calls out 1900-2100)

Max rpms were reached at +4co with the 1900 rpms.

With that being said on my model engine when we set the fuel mixture we would always adjust mixture to the highest rpms then richen it from there a few clicks. While this isn't the same, it would seem to me we are trying to get the same results, not having a lean mixture.

So for me I couldn't get the same results as

Turned the grey knob to the lowest idle that it finally stopped running at ~1200 Rpms.

The bike would not fire up. Set the co to -8. Bike still won't fire up.

Rotated grey knob till the bike fired up at ~1800 rps. ~10 clicks

I then set co back to 0 and set rpms to 1700

At co at +10 the ROMs fell to ~1600

At co at -13 the rps fell to ~1650

At -5 ROMs went up to 1750

Then I set the rpms to ~1900 ( book calls out 1900-2100)

Max rpms were reached at +4co with the 1900 rpms.

With that being said on my model engine when we set the fuel mixture we would always adjust mixture to the highest ROMs then richen it from there a few clicks. While this isn't the same, it would seem to me we are trying to get the same results, not having a lean mixture.

So for me I couldn't get the same results. Without a co analyzer who knows.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Ride-n-Hard

[chu]

Maybe that dealer shims the one exhaust valve a little tighter and you get a little more decomp.  Yamaha probably sets them on the loose end of spec so they have room for things to break in.

[avlisj]

I got my YZ450fx today and speaking with the top tech there he told me what they do to fix the starting issue and I was sworn to secrecy. But if you read my recent posts the answer is there. Turns out it has everything to do with compression or a lack of. And I know what they do to fix the issue and it has absolutely nothing to do with the co level

Your contradicting yourself

What's the secret all about

Initially you were saying a crack of the throttle will always start the bike

I want to believe. Don't own a diag tool.

What did the dealer say the fix is?

[avlisj]

How do you keep a moron in suspense !?!?

Is that what this is all about?

[WRF-Rowdy]

This what I've found. FYI I don't have a o2 sensor.

I set to co to +8 and started the bike ( warmed up)This what I've found. FYI I don't have a o2 sensor.

I set to co to +8 and started the bike ( warmed up, grey knob in)

Turned the grey knob to the lowest idle that it finally stopped running at ~1200 Rpms.

The bike would not fire up. Set the co to -8. Bike still won't fire up.

Rotated grey knob till the bike fired up at ~1800 rps. ~10 clicks

I then set co back to 0 and set rpms to 1700

At co at +10 the ROMs fell to ~1600

At co at -13 the ROMs fell to ~1650

At -5 ROMs went up to 1750

Then I set the rpms to ~1900 ( book calls out 1900-2100)

Max rpms were reached at +4co with the 1900 rpms.

With that being said on my model engine when we set the fuel mixture we would always adjust mixture to the highest ROMs then richen it from there a few clicks. While this isn't the same, it would seem to me we are trying to get the same results, not having a lean mixture.

So for me I couldn't get the same results as

Turned the grey knob to the lowest idle that it finally stopped running at ~1200 Rpms.

The bike would not fire up. Set the co to -8. Bike still won't fire up.

Rotated grey knob till the bike fired up at ~1800 rps. ~10 clicks

I then set co back to 0 and set rpms to 1700

At co at +10 the ROMs fell to ~1600

At co at -13 the ROMs fell to ~1650

At -5 ROMs went up to 1750

Then I set the rpms to ~1900 ( book calls out 1900-2100)

Max rpms were reached at +4co with the 1900 rpms.

With that being said on my model engine when we set the fuel mixture we would always adjust mixture to the highest ROMs then richen it from there a few clicks. While this isn't the same, it would seem to me we are trying to get the same results, not having a lean mixture.

So for me I couldn't get the same results. Without a co analyzer who knows.

 

Well, a rather complicated post, but the general idea is right:

with engine fully warmed up,

1) set idle rpms rather low, say around 1500 note you "current CO"

2) step CO up till engine stalls, take note of CO ("high")

3) set CO back to "current CO", fire up engine

4) setup CO down until engine stalls, take note of CO ("low")

5) calculate arithmetic mean of CO high and CO low => "new current CO" 

      example: high +5, low -22 => -8 is new current CO

6) set CO to "new current CO"

7) set rpms to 1500

continue at 2)

 

After one or two iterations your "new current CO" ist the perfect setting for your engine.

Set idle back to ~1900 and e-start in-gear for rest you your engine's life.

[avlisj]

Ok bass

So I just reread your post about the secret dealer fix and that they may have done this to your bike prior to you getting the bike. Thus the easy starts with throttle cracked.

Then you say to follow rowdys advice!

Am I now picking up what your laying down?

[Ride-n-Hard]

In my previous post was trying your suggestion to set at +8 , then lower ROMs till it died, then try a -8. Basically it didn't work.

Now I just tried setting to 1500 rpms at 0 co. I could go to +30 and -30 ( max on the diag tool) and the motor would not die at each setting. Again max increase in ROMs was just in the positive co range.

Not sure if it matters but FYI, I'm running a drd exhaust.

I have a Bosch wideband sensor in my husky and maybe I find a way to use that to check co.

[Bass Mechanic]

Ok bass

So I just reread your post about the secret dealer fix and that they may have done this to your bike prior to you getting the bike. Thus the easy starts with throttle cracked.

Then you say to follow rowdys advice!

Am I now picking up what your laying down?

Ok my bike was not fixed with my dealers magic sauce but it's been starting great with the cracked open throttle.

Because of the problems everyone was having with starting the dealer began in the last year or so making a fix to every bike they have set up since.

My FX I was told actually arrived 2 days prior but was also hard to start. So they fixed it making a modification similar to the one the guy in this thread was talking about.

They now do this mod to every bike they get in and set up.

The fact is the Co adjustment does nothing to solve the issue it has everything to do with too low of compression which is exactly what I had suspected and discussed at length on another post of mine which was purely speculation when I wrote it.

My tech said the issue is worse at the higher altitudes and as soon as he said It I knew it had to do with the decompressor mech.

The reason cracking the throttle works and is so sensitive is because when it's closed at idle there is simply not enough air getting into the cylinder and with so much leaking past the exhaust valve there is not enough compression to light it off.

Their adjustment I will not discuss and you will not find it in any owners manual. But if you read these posts you can find your answer.

My new 450FX I just got yesterday will start about 50% of the time with no throttle. 100% on the first press if you crack it a little just like my old WR.

I suspect at a lower elevation it will start 100% without throttle applied.

I also just put my lithium battery in and it starts even better and saved some weight

I highly recommend earth x batteries look them up online. They are the only ones with a built in battery management system which is crucial for lithium battery life

[WRF-Rowdy]

Ok my bike was not fixed with my dealers magic sauce but it's been starting great with the cracked open throttle.

Because of the problems everyone was having with starting the dealer began in the last year or so making a fix to every bike they have set up since.

My FX I was told actually arrived 2 days prior but was also hard to start.

So they fixed it making a modification similar to the one the guy in this thread was talking about.

Hmm... snakeoil salesman?

 

 

They now do this mod to every bike they get in and set up.

or dearlership viral marketing support act?

 

 

Their adjustment I will not discuss and you will not find it in any owners manual.

Definitely not a good thumpertalker. Thou shallst help yer buddies, not hide info from them!

 

 

I also just put my lithium battery in and it starts even better and saved some weight

I highly recommend earth x batteries look them up online.

ahh, battery salesman!

Edited December 21, 2015 by WRF-Rowdy