'14-'16 450 tripple clamp offset. 20 vs 22 vs 25

16 replies to this topic
  • Drenmaster

Posted June 04, 2015 - 01:30 PM


So with the 2016 offset being 25mm what will that do for the turning? I was ready to get 20mm offset clamps for my 14 becuase that could help with turning the bike. Curious why yami increased the offset. Anyone else running 25 mm? Or 20? What is your take?

  • jcm3

Posted June 04, 2015 - 09:04 PM


I was wondering the same thing.  Sorry, no answer here, but curious what the reason is.


The bike I bought was set up almost exactly like the 2014 DR. D MXA article bike, with Applied 20mm triple clamps in place of the stock units.  Seems like more people go that route than the other way, so curious what the reason is other than maybe due to the complaints of it being skittish on turn entry?  I love the way mine turns (with Enzo suspension for my weight and riding style/skill level), but I haven't ridden bikes with different setups back to back to compare them.


I felt like I had a basic understanding of rake and trail, but the more I read about it the more confused I am.  :lol:


Curious about this as well.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 05, 2015 - 09:04 AM


What you don't know is what was done to the axle lugs, and you haven't mentioned whether there were changes to the steering head angle.  The axle lug offset is a part of what creates the trail measurement in the steering geometry.  If you offset the clamp 3mm farther forward, but move the axle back 3mm on the fork leg, the net effect is zero.


Any change in steering angle would change trail a little too, so if that was done, it may have necessitated the change in offset.

  • GHILL28

Posted June 05, 2015 - 10:10 AM


Never felt a need to change it on my '14 like I did with a lot of previous YZ's.  Very nice balance between isolating side-jolts at high speeds and centering up the steering under hard leans (old YZ'/YZF's would flip-flop the steering bad when leaned over - unstable cornering condition).

  • Crusty Cy

Posted June 05, 2015 - 02:26 PM


I'm kind of curious myself as to the change. If they messed with the axle lugs or something else, fine. But with the 25mm offset clamps and the softer rear spring this thing may handle like a chopper. My '15 is just fine - turns great and plenty of stability. Hmm.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 05, 2015 - 02:48 PM


"Chopper"?  The change in clamp offset doesn't alter the steering angle. 

  • Mick17

Posted June 08, 2015 - 05:12 AM


By increasing offset you decrease trail........

  • grayracer513

Posted June 08, 2015 - 06:15 AM


By increasing offset you decrease trail........


Yes, but you do not alter the steering head angle by so doing.

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  • jcm3

Posted June 08, 2015 - 01:41 PM


Yes, but you do not alter the steering head angle by so doing.


So what does going from 23mm degree triple clamps to 20mm mean?  How does it work and what exactly does it do?


I've done some Googling, but the data that I find doesn't seem particularly clear, and sometimes contradicts between sites.


It's interesting to me, but I must either be slow or have not come upon the right information yet.

  • grayracer513

Posted June 08, 2015 - 03:00 PM


So what does going from 23mm degree triple clamps to 20mm mean? 




To start with, there is no such animal as 23mm degree triple clamps.  The word degree doesn't have a place in the name.  Clamp offset is the distance that the clamp puts the fork legs, and with it, the axle, forward of the axis of the steering head.  The accompanying drawing shows this.



The line directly below the word "offset" is the steering axis.  The line just in front of that is the center of the fork tubes, and the distance between is "offset".  It is important also to note that the fact that the axles are generally offset forward of the fork tubes plays a part in the total offset, and it's really the axle center that we are concerned with.  The vertical line in the drawing passes through the center of the axle to the point on the ground at which the tire contacts.  Because of the interplay between the angle of the steering axis, this vertical line crosses the axis of the steering and puts the tire contact behind the steering axis.  This distance is "trail".


Trail's effect on the cornering of a motorcycle or bicycle is a pretty complicated thing, and it is inseparably tied to the steering angle.  In it's most simple function, trail is what helps the bike run in a straight line without constant steering management.  The drag that naturally occurs at the tire simply pulls back on the front wheel which responds by swinging back into a straight line position behind the steering axis.  The greater the trail, the greater the "caster effect" is.  


Steering angle is more complicated.  A motorcycle normally carries its front wheel at the bottom of a telescoping suspension unit.  The bike will encounter obstacles as it rolls, and the suspension has to be able to absorb the impacts.  To help it do so, the fork is angled toward the front, so that some of the horizontal forces of impact are better absorbed.  The bigger the obstacles, the more angle is needed.  With MX bikes, the fact that the bike will encounter such obstacles with its front wheel while the rear of the bike is elevated has to be taken into account also, and what you end up with is a steering head angle that is more shallow than would be preferable for good steering.  If the head were vertical, the slightest input at the bars would change the path of the front wheel.  If carried to the opposite extreme, with the forks straight out horizontally, turning the bars would only bank the wheel left or right, and not steer it in either direction.  With that, you can understand that the shallower the head angle is (the greater it varies from vertical), the worse steering will become.   Flat track and especially speedway bikes are built with head angles between 18 and 23 degrees from vertical, while MX bikes are typically around 27.  This is the main reason why MX bikes naturally tend to push the front end.


As we start to look at trail, we have to add another factor; gravity.  If you stand your bike up straight, and let go of the bars, it will normally stay pointed straight.  There is a slight tendency to flop over one way or other, but it usually won't unless you encourage it to.  This part of the flop-over tendency is due to the head angle only, and if you imagine, or have ever been on a real "chopper" with a head angle out at something truly silly like 45 or 50 degrees, you would find this tendency greatly exaggerated.  But what about trail?  To see this, all you need to do is lean the bike over.  The wheel will immediately fall to the side you lean it toward. 


With the bike upright, the weight of the bike sits on the front tire and the force of the weight is oriented vertically.  As you lean the bike, though, the force of the weight begins to push laterally against the side of the tire as it leans over, and because the tire is behind the steering axis, it swings the wheel to the side.  But this is while standing still.


While in motion, there is the caster effect we observed earlier that tries to counter this fall-over effect.  The faster you go, the more caster effect there is, so the effect of trail on cornering is more pronounced at low speeds than higher.  Say you start with a bike that truly has "neutral steering"; there is no tendency to go anywhere but where it's pointed.  If, in the speed range you ride at most, you increase trail by reducing the triple clamp offset, you will find the bike tends to "turn in" unless corrected by the rider.  This can get bad enough to be referred to as "tucking under", "knifing", stuff like that.  If you go the other way and reduce trail, you would find the bike tending to fight being turned into a corner or tend to climb out of ruts to the outside. 


Head shake is such a complex phenomena that it really warrants its own complete  discussion, but here I'll simply say that shallow head angles tend to resist it better.  Head shake is an "under-damped second order oscillation" of the steering assembly.  It gets started when something deflects the wheel to one side, and the reaction of the chassis to the wheel being out of track is to push it back (remember the caster effect).  The problem arises when the reactive pushback forces the wheel equally far out of track in the opposite direction, which of course, sets up yet another reactive pushback, and so on.  Too much trail can actually aggravate this. 


So that's what the picture looks like.  Let me now throw one more element of motorcycle chassis dynamics at you: the fact that a free wheel being rolled along the ground by itself will steer itself around in a circle if you lean it over.  That's part of what makes a bike turn, and it all adds together with trail and head angle to the end result. 


So triple clamp offset does change the bike's handling in "reasonably" predictable ways.  The problem is that nobody can predict how YOU will like the change if you do it to your bike.

  • jcm3

Posted June 08, 2015 - 08:20 PM


To start with, there is no such animal as 23mm degree triple clamps.  The word degree doesn't have a place in the name. 


:facepalm:   LOL, don't know where that came from.


Thanks for the info, it helps a lot.

  • Mick17

Posted June 13, 2015 - 05:52 AM


I think a good analogy for older guys is when you had your old schwinn stingray with the curved forks you would ride with your handlebars turned backwards would be less trail (it would turn really fast, but you wouldn't dare ride it down a steep hill!!! unless you had really big Cajones!!! LOL) With your bars turned the standard way your bike would turn slower and require a little more lean, but was more stable at higher speeds. SSOooooooo..................more triple clamp offset = your schwinn with the bars turned backwards. Less offset = bars in the standard positon

  • grayracer513

Posted June 13, 2015 - 07:11 AM


You have your Schwinn analogy exactly backwards.  Turning the fork backward on a bicycle INCREASES trail.  Bicycle forks are "raked" forward, which produces the offset that on motorcycles is done by the triple clamps and by the forward axle offset.  Reversing the fork moves the axle back, increasing trail.

  • Mick17

Posted June 13, 2015 - 09:13 AM


Oops...... You are correct!!! But the anolgy still applies. Offset back..... Turn fast. Offset forward stable at high speed

  • Drenmaster

Posted June 13, 2015 - 09:14 PM


welp, i plan going going with the xtrig 20-22.. i won't get to ride till the end of the year but ill give an update then. 

  • grayracer513

Posted June 14, 2015 - 12:48 PM


Perfect.  If you don't like running 20, you can just switch back.  Nice clamp set, BTW.

  • Drenmaster

Posted June 14, 2015 - 10:02 PM


yea best of both worlds i guess.. really like the bar mount set up on them too.. 

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