Baja Designs Dual Sport Kit



66 replies to this topic
  • gearbox

Posted February 12, 2004 - 04:20 AM

#21

Lowedog,
The Baja Designs guy said at first they were making the kits for the WR450 with AC power to the headlight with the 70/75watt bulb. He explained to me that they had to stop because of complaints that it was frying the regulator. It became such a problem that they had to start running the headlight (along with everything else) off the battery (DC).
Obviously, a lower wattage bulb (35/35w) would have to be used.
My question to you is: Have you experienced any regulator or stator problems ?????
I doubt it as our bike was designed to run the headlight with AC power. It shouldn't be a problem.

  • PBDBLUE

Posted February 12, 2004 - 05:15 AM

#22

I wonder why they want to run a 35 watt bulb? The stock bulb is 60 watts. 60 watts is only about 5 amps @ 12 volts and most of the regulators on the market are good for 12+ amps (Trailtech reg rated @ 150W). Even with the taillight, brake light and turn signals on your only at 140W and that's an intermittent load. Maximum continous load (headlight + taillight) is only 65 watts. From a design standpoint the numbers don't add up. I just finished building a DS and I mounted a Trailtech regulator inside the airbox like Baja Designs does so I could float the DC ground. I am a little concerned that perhaps there is some issue with the regulator cooling properly inside the box but you would think there's plenty of airflow in there. Maybe not? We'll see. If it has a problem perhaps I'll add a larger heat sink to it.

  • 5spoke

Posted February 12, 2004 - 07:35 AM

#23

I think the problem they had, which is probably very rare. It is when the bat. is dead and you are running all the lights off it. The stator has a max output at specific rpm. The stator can put out a lot of juice at high rpm. With all elec on and bat pulling max power as well you may get a overload on the reg. if you are running everything through it.

Haveing the lights on the AC circuit and a dead bat. on the DC side, 'could' fry the stator, again at high rpm. The problem with a high load is that the voltage drops and the current shoots up.

  • PBDBLUE

Posted February 12, 2004 - 08:21 AM

#24

That could be. I'm running a small lead-acid battery as I have a basic dislike for ni-cads (particularly in a constant charge environment) The Trailtech regulator has two minus leads. One lead (blue) that you're supposed to run to the battery - post if it has a small capacity and another ground lead (black) that goes to all the loads. As with all of these items details and specs are sketchy but I assume that it is to limit the current to the battery. I just finished the install so we'll see how it works out. I do like having the headlight on DC as it doesn't fluctuate so much with RPM.

  • 5spoke

Posted February 12, 2004 - 08:45 AM

#25

I have my head light tail/light on the AC side. I don't get much fluctuation until I hit the brake. This should be solved once I get the LED brake/tail light. The advantage of having it on the AC side is that it will be brighter as the voltage increases. Also if your bat. needs more charging it will auto. sacrifice the lights for a quicker charge. I think this was the reasoning for Y to do it like this in the first place.

If there is less load on the stator i.e. the bat. is fully charged, the voltage will be around 14-15V and therefore give you a brighter bulb. It obviously works the other way around too, but as long as you don't have starting issues, the bat should charge up pritty quickly and then you have the potential for more juice on the lights.

I didn't know the stock bat. was a ni-cad. They are usually not a good choice for high starting currents. I didn't even check that and I'm supprised they use one. :)

  • PBDBLUE

Posted February 12, 2004 - 09:00 AM

#26

The stock WR450 battery is not a ni-cad. Some of the DS kits like Baja Designs use a pack of AA nicads to power the lights. In California to meet the letter of the law the taillight must operate for at least 15 minutes without the engine running. No big deal. My DS is my WR426 so I had to add a battery. If you have to run some lights on DC it's just easier to run the whole thing on it. Wiring the switch is much simpler that way. My go fast play bike (off road only)is a WR450. :) Sorry for the confusion.

  • Lowedog

Posted February 14, 2004 - 08:47 PM

#27

Gearbox,

I have had no regulator or stator problems at all. I do remember some posts last summer where a couple of guys were blowing headlight bulbs with the B.D. kit. I believe the headlight was the only thing in the kit that didn't run off the battery. I have been real happy with the kit.

Later,
Lowedog

  • shotgunscott

Posted February 15, 2004 - 12:04 AM

#28

Unfortunately I have hade nothing but problems with the A/C electrical side on my 03. I received one of the first Baja Designs dual sport kits for the WR 450 and became all too familiar with blown headlights. The 03 headlight/taillight run on the A/C circuit with a stock draw of 65 watts (60 for the headlight 5 for the tail) when you added the dual sport kit and were now abele to run the low beam side of the H4 bulb your wattage draw was only 60 watts. The system was designed to be regulated with at least a 65-watt demand. When you run on the low beam at about 6000 rpm the voltage became unregulated and would blow the low beam. Baja Designs sent me out a 10 watt bulb to replace the on used for the license plate illuminator. This worked for a while but I believe that my regulator is failing because I now have to run only the high beam side of the bulb (60 watts) and hade to change over to the brake element side of the tail light bulb (21 watts) for a total of 81-watt draw. This is the only way I can keep bulbs in the bike for any time.
I just ordered 70/75s to try out. If it doesn't work I’ll either float the ground and run D/C power only or buy a new regulator and start over. :)

  • ETP

Posted February 15, 2004 - 06:11 AM

#29

I am happy to finally see some serious interest in this topic.
There are 2 power sources coming from the stock WR magneto.
One is converted to DC and regulated for the ignition and charging. This one does not have much juice. The other is regulated at 12 volts AC for the lights. I have been trying to find out how many watts each of these power sources can produce for quite a while. An earlier post suggests over 100 watts for lighting? I was told by one of the stator winding companies that it can only produce about 60. Haven't found it in the manual. What is it?
Does anyone know for sure?
Thats the key to all of this IMHO....

  • N7SLC

Posted February 15, 2004 - 06:52 AM

#30

I don't get it. :) Is the stock headlamp not bright
enough?

Why even use the Baja Design kit at all?

The WR450(at least the '03 anyway) have a highbeam option. You only need to add a wire to it. And wiring t/signals
and a brake light is simple.

ddialogue wired his himself and the stock headlamp seems plenty bright. He also uses a 1157 LED lamp which is a
direct plug-in for the WR tailight.

It too, is plenty bright.

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  • 5spoke

Posted February 15, 2004 - 07:19 AM

#31

I am happy to finally see some serious interest in this topic.
There are 2 power sources coming from the stock WR magneto.
One is converted to DC and regulated for the ignition and charging. This one does not have much juice. The other is regulated at 12 volts AC for the lights. I have been trying to find out how many watts each of these power sources can produce for quite a while. An earlier post suggests over 100 watts for lighting? I was told by one of the stator winding companies that it can only produce about 60. Haven't found it in the manual. What is it?
Does anyone know for sure?
Thats the key to all of this IMHO....


The two sources from the stator: one for AC elec. power and one is a pickup coil for ignition.

The AC elec power from the stator runs to the headlight/tail light and the reg/rec which runs the DC circuit with the Bat.

The AC from the stator is unregulated and thus high voltages are possible.

See page 2-18 in the manual: AC Magneto "Normal Output - 14V/120W AC at 5000rpm"
: DC Reg 8A at 14.1-14.9V DC = ~115W

A magneto doesn't have a constant output like a battery unless it is regulated. They give you the output for 5000rpm. At 10000rpm it would, theoretically but not practically, be double and at 2500rpm half. If you don't have a load (low current) on the stator the voltage will sky rocket. If your load is too much you will have high current output and low voltage from the stator.

If you add a load like a high wattage bulb, you will be putting a high load on the stator and the voltage will drop. The high wattage bulb will be sucking all the juice and you will get a bright light at higher rpm (it will flicker bad at low rpm), you will think all is well.

Because the voltage has dropped below the reg/rec. voltage there will be no current flowing through it. and therefore no charging and your bat. will go dead.

I believe Yamaha has designed the circuit for what it was intended for; 60W headlight, 5W tail, a little extra for turn signals, 21W for brake and more or less 100W of charging depending on the rpm. I believe the circuit was designed for Dual Sport and the extra lights. They took the ave. rpm and had enough power to keep the lights running and charge the bat. Any extra load will start chipping away at the charging circuit until there will not be enough juice to keep the bat. charged.

I think you could easily get away with a 75/70W bulb, as Lowedog suggested, as long as you don't lug around all day at low rpm. If you only going to run the headlight and maybe a LED tail light you could probably use a 100W bulb and get away with it. :)

  • ETP

Posted February 15, 2004 - 08:23 AM

#32

Thanks 5spoke.
I'm traveling now, but will check my manual when I get home Monday.
The LED tailight is a good idea to conserve power. It is also less prone to vibration like an filement bulb.
Question about the AC source.
I did some meter probing a while ago and saw a very high voltage right out of the stator. I am pretty sure there is some half wave regulation in that circuit. The schematic is not very detailed in some areas.
Wonder if my UFO headlight assembly will take a high wattage standard bulb? (35w now)
I completely sucked my battery dry on a night time dual sport ride a while ago. Bike hardly ran. Lucky I didn't fry anything. The entire kit was hooked up to the lower wattage source. Since then I have isolated the head and taillight running off the AC source. Sure would be nice to run a 75W bulb.

  • 5spoke

Posted February 15, 2004 - 10:32 AM

#33

The schematic in the manual doesn't show any rectification before the headlight and regulator. I haven't checked if there is some sort of rectifier, bu tI doubt it as it would consume power.

The way the stator is wound might be giving you a half wave signal, again I haven't checked this. The voltage will be high if there is minimal load. This is another reason I think Y decided to have the headlight on all the time. This drops the voltage and act as kind of a regulator if you want to call it that.

Increasing the bulb to a 75W might not be as effective as you might wish. For example: take an ordinary household 60W bulb and put it next to a 75W. There is obviously going to be a difference, but it is small. How much diff. on the halogen? I can't tell you, but maybe Lowedog can. I'm not sure if it's worth having a dead batt. I'm going to try one of those Xenon bulbs. A Xenon at 75W might be the answer. Maybe a 65W Xenon is brighter than a 75W halogen. A 75W going to chew up an extra 1A. This is 1A less for charging. Until I have a extra $50 to buy all of these bulbs and test them side by side, I just can tell you for sure.

  • ETP

Posted February 15, 2004 - 01:59 PM

#34

I don't get it. :) Is the stock headlamp not bright
enough?




I have the UFO headlight assembly which is 35 watts. A long night dual sport dirt ride I did a while back in the mountains proved to me that 35 watts out of the UFO is probably enough light to ride slow and safe on winding roads and trails when working right ( my light was slowly dimming due to a charging problem ). Any speed would require more. My buddy's stock XR650 headlight was more than enough. I had to ride along side of him for 60 miles, since my battery was dying. Besides, bigger, better, and (less wieght) is the motto of most of us, isn't it?

  • Lowedog

Posted February 15, 2004 - 09:02 PM

#35

With my B.D. kit the brake light/tail light are run by the battery. They come on when the ignition power switch and the power switch that came with the kit are turned on. I didn't install the turn signals. Don't know if that effects anything. I have never had a problem with the battery staying charged. As a matter of fact i have let it sit for 4-5 weeks this winter and it still cranked the motor easily. I do leave the headlight turned off a lot when day riding. All the rest of the electrical stuff is kind of confusing to me so I won't try to make any suggestions. Just wanted to post what is working for me.

:cheers:Lowedog

  • PBDBLUE

Posted February 16, 2004 - 03:30 PM

#36

I did some meter probing a while ago and saw a very high voltage right out of the stator. I am pretty sure there is some half wave regulation in that circuit.



I spent some time analyzing the magneto output of my WR426 with an oscilloscope and found that the output is a full sine wave with a frequency of about 100 Hz at idle and an open voltage of around 60 volts @ about half throttle. The frequency and voltage increase proportionally with the rpm. Because the frequecy varies you cannot accurately measure the ac voltage with a common digital voltmeter (DVM) as these are calibrated for a 60 hz signal. To measure the voltage you need what is called a "true rms meter". At any rate the ac voltage regulator is a shunt to ground and therefore does not have to be "upstream" of the load. I haven't measured the output on my 450 but I suspect that the DC rectifier is a full wave bridge and incorporates an AC shunt regulator as well. If it didn't you would see some extremely high voltages on the headlamp and some extremely short lamp lifes (like a few seconds at best). I haven't seen the BD circuit for the 450 so I can't comment on what the problem is but I doubt that they are using the lamp load as a form of regulation.

  • gearbox

Posted February 16, 2004 - 04:16 PM

#37

After experiencing the problems, Baja Designs began selling the kit with everything on the DC side with the 35 watt headlt bulb.
I can't see why i couldn't just leave the stock headlight (55/60) and taillight. Install a hi/lo switch and a hyd. brake switch. Leave it on the AC side unchanged (except for the switches.
As for turnsignals and horn.... just run them from the battery to the handlebar switch.
The only change to Yamaha's system would be the 2 switches (on AC) and the addition of the turnsignals/horn to the battery which are only on for a short period of time anyway.

Could there be any problem with that ????

  • 5spoke

Posted February 16, 2004 - 04:33 PM

#38

Nice work and info PBD.

The stock WR's AC regulator maintains 13~14V AC according to the manual. I can only assume the BD origional kit's regulator didn't reg the AC from the stator, only the DC. Thus high voltage on the lamps and they would blow like you said.

It sounds what there solution was, from the info that we got on this thread, is that they just put everything on the DC side so they didn't have mess with a AC reg. Their DC reg. was probably not designed to have the additional load of the headlight and instead of upgrading the reg. they just installed a smaller headlight bulb.

I'd like to hear what you think and correct me on this PBD. :)

  • PBDBLUE

Posted February 16, 2004 - 04:51 PM

#39

I think you're right on the money. If they replaced the stock WR450 regulator with their own as you said it may not regulate the AC side of the circuit. I'm not sure what the rating is on the Baja Designs regulator. The one I'm using is from Trailtech and is rated at 150 watts. I'm running everything off of the DC side including a 1.2 ah lead acid battery. I've only got a few hours on the bike since I finished the install. So far everything seems to be working ok but I think it's too early to know for sure. This is on my WR426. If I was going to DS my 450 I might think about keeping the stock reg/rectifier and running the lights off the AC side. It wouldn't be totally legal here in CA but you could probably get away with it. If a cop stops you (which I doubt would happen)just say "damn battery is dead again!" :) If I ended up replacing the regulator then I think I'd go full DC. Mixing loads on AC and DC can get a little tricky since many of the handlebar switches share common grounds with several of the functions (like the horn and the ignition kill for example).

  • N7SLC

Posted February 16, 2004 - 05:36 PM

#40

After experiencing the problems, Baja Designs began selling the kit with everything on the DC side with the 35 watt headlt bulb.
I can't see why i couldn't just leave the stock headlight (55/60) and taillight. Install a hi/lo switch and a hyd. brake switch. Leave it on the AC side unchanged (except for the switches.
As for turnsignals and horn.... just run them from the battery to the handlebar switch.
The only change to Yamaha's system would be the 2 switches (on AC) and the addition of the turnsignals/horn to the battery which are only on for a short period of time anyway.

Could there be any problem with that ????


That's exactly what DDIALOGUE did! Headlamp and tailight on AC, brake light on DC through the HD switch on the rear brake. The 1157 LED lamp works A-OK on AC.

After reading the posts again, the trouble may lay in the fact that some states require the headlamp to remain ON while the motor is off. It's a shame the WR450 won't do that...




 
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