05' with new valves and no clearance...

[Braaapdad]

ok, been searching for an answer and just cant find one. Ive done my fare share of reading a lot about the valves but what do i do when i come to no clearance?

 

i just installed 4 new valves (oem), but kept in the kibble white springs that were in the bike already (unknown to me). after getting the head all re-assembled with the cam and stroke at tdc we still can not get any clearance on the right intake and only .076 clearance on the left one. This means that the left intake valve needs a new shim size of 1.089 and the right needs a 1.073.... since shims do not go this low, where do i start to figure out the new shim size? is it a guess and check kinda deal?

 

also would like your opinion on installing new oem valves and leaving in the kibblewhite springs and seals...? or should i pull out the kibblewhite springs and just replace everything with oem (which i have)?

 

thanks for your help and opinion

[TDW]

If I understand what your explaining and the shims you need are smaller than whats available, you may likely need new valve seats or just get a new head and transfer your new valves into it.

Did you get the valve seats cut and do you know how many times they've been cut already?

 

As far as using kw springs, it wont be problem on the exhaust valves but I wouldnt use them on the intake valves. The intake valves dont need that much spring pressure and I dont know if they would live long, the oem intake springs and retainers are much cheaper and more suited to the titanium intake valves.  

[Braaapdad]

New valve seats would make sense. Since I wanted to keep the kw springs, I couldn't install the new oem seats I have because they don't fit the kw springs. Right now i have the old kw springs and seats on new oem valves. So if that is the case I will have to just forget about the kw springs and go all oem or order 4 new kw seats for $25. Sound right?

[nzgsr]

Do not use kibblewhite springs on OEM titanium intake valves. Sounds like the seats are worn and are allowing the valve to recess into the head, you need a new head or to get new seats installed by a machine shop. U are confusing the retainers for seats. The seats are fixed into the head and are where the big end of the valve touches the head.

Edited January 8, 2015 by nzgsr

[418Stroker]

Yes, valve seats are where the issue with is, have new seats installed. Have a shop that specializes in motorcycle head work do the job.

[Braaapdad]

Thanks for the help everyone.

I really hope it's not that and something else is off. I'm going to tear it down again and re-install everything oem (valves wise). Then if that is still not giving me clearance on that one valve I will take it to a shop and have the new seats done. Really hope it's not that since I just paid $240 for complete oem valve kit on a 05' 250f that I wanted just to get back into riding.

Also, after all new valves are installed where do I start with shim size? Is there a standard stock size? I believe it might vary but there's gotta be a good starting point. Since all new valves I can't really go off the last measurements and shim size.

Thanks again for the help and opinions. Will post updates with repair

[imbackmkay]

did you have your old seats cut?

 

If not you're gonna wear out your new valves prematurely...

[Jeff@bigborethumpers]

Sounds like you have an issue with the head already having a few valve jobs on it to start. The valves just need to be tipped. You need to take this head to a local motorcycle shop, or send it to someone like bigborethumpers.com Before you spend a bunch of unnecessary $$$$$. 

[Braaapdad]

Thanks for the info. I screwed my self by pre-maturely ordering the oem valve kit for $240

I have torn down the head again and installed all new oem valve kit, reassembled and didn't get any clearance on the left intake valve and barely any clearance on the right. I'm convinced it's the seats that have been beat up and I need to know what my most affordable option is... A new oem head on ebay is going for $300. Add the $240 I paid for the oem valve kit and that's a $540 OEM head. If I knew all this about the head before I would have just ordered the nice one from bigborethumpers.com for $575!! Will taking it to a shop cost less to have the valves "tipped"? I'm headed to the local (45min away) shop tomorrow to ask what they can do.

Thanks again for the help everyone, I've never run into this. Should have stayed away from an 05' race bike.... 2 stroke, I'm coming back...

[Jeff@bigborethumpers]

Just so you know to We tip valves. Id take car of that for like $10 plus the shipping home. Just Incase the guy you are taking it to has no idea what to tip them to. 

[SLO_Rider]

The valves just need to be tipped. You need to take this head to a local motorcycle shop, or send it to someone like bigborethumpers.com Before you spend a bunch of unnecessary $$$$$. 

 

As Jeff suggested, just have valves tipped.  When I have seats cut the machine shop I use will tip the valves to compensate for the material they cut from the seats.  When this is done the valve clearance stays the same and the old shims can be used which saves me time. Of course this is dependent on the valve clearance being in spec before the valve job, which yours of course is not. 

 

If you have the valves tipped you still need to have the seats cut beforehand, otherwise you'll destroy your new valves in no time.

[Braaapdad]

Just so you know to We tip valves. Id take car of that for like $10 plus the shipping home. Just Incase the guy you are taking it to has no idea what to tip them to.

Thanks Jeff. I did go to the shop today (michaels cycle in Carson City, NV) and talked to the mechanic. His opinion is that someone has already done everything they can with the seats and told me it would be a waste of time/money to have the seats measured and all that. He seemed really honest about everything and even told me to not buy oem from them because ebay is way cheaper. Since he did not try to sell me on anything I'm pretty confident in his opinion. But on the other hand, if you can save me from buying a brand new $300 head then I'd like to know more about that.... Just send you the head and valves and you will tip them? What if the seats need to be cut? Let me know what you think, but I'm defiantly interested. Thanks again

[Jeff@bigborethumpers]

Have the seats been cut with the new valves you have installed? If not then yes this may be a loosing battle with this head. And it is a possibility that the last guy that did a valve job sunk the valves way to much. I would have to hold it in my hands to tell you if that was the case. If you want to save money as well as time, and get some more longevity out of your 250 Bigborethumpers.com does offer new oem heads with our stainless steel valve kit installed for $575. Just in case that is an option. 

Send it over to me and I can take a look at it. Will not charge you a dime but the shipping home to look at it if you would like. Maybe save you a buck or two. 

[TDW]

It sounds like it has already been determined that the seats have been cut at least one to many times.

If it was me I would probably upgrade and buy a new head and just install your new oem valves and hardware.

Could try selling the old bare head on ebay to offset the cost alittle.  

[Braaapdad]

Update:

I have not cut the seats since I've owned it (30hrs). Jeff, thanks for the help and the option, I did order a new stock head and am going to install that. Right now I can't even afford the shipping of the old one. Maybe sometime soon I can send it out to you to see what the deal is?

So the bike will now have new oem piston, valves and head. Pretty much the entire top end is new oem. Hope she runs good and all oem holds up for a while. Will post again when she is running, hopefully Thursday.

[Riki]

I had something similar happen to me. Sent my head out for inspection and was told the seats could do with being re cut as they weren't seating properly. Had the work done, put the head back on the bike and could not get an accurate measurement with the clearances. So I sent it out to a different shop for them to tell me the seats were cut too deep. So I had to pay for new seats to be installed and cut right.

First picture is at TDC and there should be a slight gap between rocker arm and shim, which there's not.

Second picture is were I had to bend a feeler gauge in between rocker and shim

Talk1421608988.446044.jpg]

[Braaapdad]

Got the bike together tonight. Finally everything is back to new and is almost ready to ride....

By the way,starting with a new oem head and valve kit the shims I ended up running are 2.45 exhaust and 2.00 for intake. That's with perfect spec clearances all around. .28 and .127

Did not get fluids poured in to her yet (or obviously started) because I'm soaking a new clutch right now and also need to swap out the left stator cover because the oil filter cap bottom hole is stripped out. Tomorrow all that will get tossed on along with all new fluids, filters and grips. She should be fresh as hell.

Thanks again everyone for the help. This was the worst case scenario for a "valve job" and used bike (owned only 30hrs maybe).

Here are rough costs off the top of my head...

All parts are honda oem purchased off ebay...

Head-$300

Complete valve kit-$240

Piston kit -$122

Total of $662 in parts

Add on all other parts that are getting installed (mentioned above) and this is a $1000 rebuild WITH OUT PAYING A SHOP FOR LABOR. I can't imagine if I took that to my local shop. I would have thought they were lying to me and getting more money from me. Along with taking it to a dealer shop, they are going to want to order the parts (oem head from my local shop was $435!). This job was going to be $800 in labor...? This is my first go at pretty much any motor work, but I was guided by a neighbor who has some experience and the right tools. Thanks to him, the users on here and $1000, my bike is now rebuilt and I've become a diy bike mechanic in the process (read the diy mechanic article on the home page).

Thanks again. Will post once more when she rips tomorrow

Edited January 23, 2015 by Braaapdad

[Braaapdad]

Bike rips! Could tell as soon as she started that everything was mechanicly sound. Sounds and runs like a brand new bike. After $1000, she better.