2012+ WR450F Stronger starter motor?



64 replies to this topic
  • drdanbozeman

Posted May 28, 2015 - 05:47 AM

#41

EarthX responded within a couple of hours to my message. They are sending me a terminal adapter kit at their expense. EarthX appears to be a company that knows the value of good customer service; glad I went with their product.



  • Spiritwalker2222

Posted May 28, 2015 - 09:13 AM

#42

I'll throw my experience into the mix. My WR450 is a good cold starter. I need to pull the cold start knob, but it starts quickly with a cold engine in the cold.

 

The only issue I have with starting my bike is when the engine is really hot. If I stall the bike in tight single track on a hot day it won't start by just pushing the starter button. It'll start first kick. If I hold the throttle WOT for a few cranks, it'll then start perfectly fine. Alternatively, if the bike is running and I rev the engine and then hit the kill switch it'll start perfectly every time.

 

I have a Sharai lithium iron battery, have my CO set to 7, TPS to 11.

 

If i'm on double track, open trails. Starting isn't an issue as the bike will be running cooler.


Edited by Spiritwalker2222, May 28, 2015 - 09:15 AM.


  • hootie233

Posted May 29, 2015 - 12:01 AM

#43

Ill chime in and complain too. I have exhaust, tuned and all that. I live at 5280 feet. The bike will not start while cold unless kicked and when the bike is warmed up it will only start the when the starter knob is pulled out. KInda a pain in the ass. WHAT DO?!



  • mch

Posted May 29, 2015 - 06:03 AM

#44

Ill chime in and complain too. I have exhaust, tuned and all that. I live at 5280 feet. The bike will not start while cold unless kicked and when the bike is warmed up it will only start the when the starter knob is pulled out. KInda a pain in the ass. WHAT DO?!

 

http://www.thumperta...l#entry12239173

 

In short, you need to have your CO level adjusted with the Yamaha FI tool, and not the GYTR programmer.  A stronger battery like the Shorai or EarthX also helps.



  • bopper450

Posted June 07, 2015 - 09:48 PM

#45

I'm of the belief that I have the only newer WR450F that starts hot or cold (25 degrees the other morning) with the e-start, it doesn't die, doesn't backfire, starts in gear if I want, doesn't overheat,....there has to be more trouble free WR's out there?
Note: GYTR ECU & throttle screw, snorkel removed, Dr D slip-on, CO% set to 3.7% using an EGA , (I use 2-3 of Yamahas published maps depending on where I'm riding without problems).

Mine also starts every time can also start it in gear if I shut it down manually(not stall). I have the gytr ecu and throttle screw, last year it never started great but since putting on my fmf q4 pipe it has started great, I'm also over 1000kms so maybe it has loosened up enough also

  • simica

Posted June 27, 2015 - 11:49 AM

#46

So I have been following several threads in TT about starting issue questioning battery strength, starter strength, ECU, CO settings, TPS settings.  The only starting issues I have are when the bike is hot, it won't start till the fourth time I hit the button unless I'm in neutral and turn the throttle just slightly.  I have a 2014 with stock battery, GYTR ECU FMF exhaust with FMF mapping, and no toil air filter.  CO and TPS are at stock settings.  I live in Colorado at 6000ft. and ride up to over 10,000ft. I read in one of the threads someone recommending holding the throttle open then hitting kill switch for better restarts.  I went for a ride yesterday up in the Grand Mesa and tried this...It Worked!  Even at 10000 feet. Stock battery in gear or out, it fired up immediately. Now my longest off period was only about five minutes so I don't know if it would work after 15 or 20 minutes of the bike being off, but I was pretty happy that it worked.  If changing the CO level to 12, I read someone saying, will also fix the hot starting issue, than I would rather do that.



  • OUTERLIMITS

Posted June 27, 2015 - 08:20 PM

#47

I also don't seem to have the usual problems.  Stock battery and all the typical uncorking mods  What I notice is that after I spin the motor for the first time, I hear the fuel pump cycling just like it does when I first turn on the ignition.  The bike will make that sound right after the first two times I crank it and stop.  After that it always starts on the 3rd crank.  I figure the pump is fully pressurizing the system the first two spins so I only do quick spins on those and then it's ready.  When I've been riding and it's only been a few minutes since the motor has been off, it usually lights on the first try, in gear or out, it doesn't care.  I only get out maybe once a month right now and never charge the battery.  I think this e-start and battery are identical to the one I had on my '08 and that bike sucked with the electric start unless it was warmed up.  



  • Chaconne

Posted June 28, 2015 - 11:29 AM

#48

I also don't seem to have the usual problems.  Stock battery and all the typical uncorking mods  What I notice is that after I spin the motor for the first time, I hear the fuel pump cycling just like it does when I first turn on the ignition.  The bike will make that sound right after the first two times I crank it and stop.  After that it always starts on the 3rd crank.  I figure the pump is fully pressurizing the system the first two spins so I only do quick spins on those and then it's ready.  When I've been riding and it's only been a few minutes since the motor has been off, it usually lights on the first try, in gear or out, it doesn't care.  I only get out maybe once a month right now and never charge the battery.  I think this e-start and battery are identical to the one I had on my '08 and that bike sucked with the electric start unless it was warmed up.  

Same here, my 2014 has had none of the above issues, e-starts great hot, cold, in gear. And I don't mind kickstarting it either,  it is easier to kickstart than my old xr400.



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted June 28, 2015 - 11:36 AM

#49

After that it always starts on the 3rd crank.  I figure the pump is fully pressurizing the system the first two spins so I only do quick spins on those and then it's ready.  When I've been riding and it's only been a few minutes since the motor has been off, it usually lights on the first try, in gear or out, it doesn't care.

Exactly that same 3rd crank fires up in gear when hot problem was bugging me to my buddies amusment, :cry:

when I took ma '12 WR into the woods right after I bought it end of April.

 

As the pre owner recommended to slightly pull the hot start knob "then it fires up much better when hot" :lol:

I though she might be running street legally lean.

Following the advice here and elsewhere on the net, I changed the CO setting to +6 or +8, I don't remember exactly.

That resulted in the notorious "3rd push will start" feature. :banghead:

 

The REAL problem: these bikes are running rich, always. I know, I've got at O2 sensor in the euro header.

 

Solution: set CO to -4 or -10. 

I currently run CO at -24.  Only at -26 the O2 sensor of the "euro EPA" header signals lean, anything greate then -26 is rich!

 

I'm really happy as now she fires up first push first revolution, really instantly, and of course in gear, too.

 

YMMV



  • simica

Posted June 28, 2015 - 12:18 PM

#50

Sorry i'm not a mechanical guru Rowdy, but you said "solution: set CO to -4 or -10" then you said you currently run CO at -24.  I'm confused, and I believe this can only be done with a FI diagnostic tool? Thanks



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  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted June 28, 2015 - 10:19 PM

#51

Sorry i'm not a mechanical guru Rowdy, but you said "solution: set CO to -4 or -10" then you said you currently run CO at -24.  I'm confused, and I believe this can only be done with a FI diagnostic tool? Thanks

Yepp.  You NEED that tool http://www.cmsnl.com...2/#.VZDgo0Y1TVc

in a simiar urgency as you need to be able to turn the idle mixtrue screw on a cargbed engine.

It's a shame that this toll is not part of the racing kit (ECU, muffler).  You might even get a chinese version cheaper.

Google for "FI diagnostic" and "sym" (Sym manufactures scooters, that apparently use a similarly tunable ECU)

You do not need that +100$ wiring harness, wasted money, setup is very easy w/o it.

 

Stock CO setting is 0.  People recommended going richer, to CO value of 8.

Frankly, I had very bad starting results with CO set to 8.

Initially I played around at extremely low an idle speed to find the CO tool values where the engine would stall.

I found that going very low like -16 still had the engine running so

I hesitantly opted for -4 and was very happy with the results:

one push startup when in gear, hot and cold.

 

Curious as I am last week I fitted the up to now unused euro EPA header with O2 sensor

and found that down to -25 CO setting the engine still idles rich!

Currently I'm running idle at -24, to see if that causes any starting issues.

Up to now still perfectly firing up.

 

=> an EFI WRF - with correct CO setting - starts at least as well as any other well tuned carbed engine!

=> everyone that runs an EFI WRF with a positive CO value is ruining his e-startability

=> all the request for a "stronger starter" are similar to tuning one's F150's eingine instead of fifing the trailer dragging brakes.

 

=> I'm not advocating a specific CO value to be the solution for all,

 I'm just saying people NEED that tool and they need to play with it,

 only then they'll be rewarded with an instantly starting bike


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, June 28, 2015 - 10:22 PM.


  • drdanbozeman

Posted June 29, 2015 - 07:19 AM

#52

Yepp.  You NEED that tool http://www.cmsnl.com...2/#.VZDgo0Y1TVc

in a simiar urgency as you need to be able to turn the idle mixtrue screw on a cargbed engine.

It's a shame that this toll is not part of the racing kit (ECU, muffler).  You might even get a chinese version cheaper.

Google for "FI diagnostic" and "sym" (Sym manufactures scooters, that apparently use a similarly tunable ECU)

You do not need that +100$ wiring harness, wasted money, setup is very easy w/o it.

 

So - WRF-Rowdy

It would appear that many of us got it wrong and increased the CO setting. It is worth it to me to get the tool in order to have a bike that starts reliably. Looks like the link above is for a company in the Netherlands. Are they OK to order from in the States? Tool cost is 88 Euro or about $98 at current exchange rates, not including shipping. This Chinese tool [http://www.aliexpres...363677445.html]is running $260 including shipping.

 

Would you be willing to describe how to hook up the Euro tool, since their site says tool does not come with instructions...

 

Thanks - Dan

 

 



  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted June 29, 2015 - 07:26 AM

#53

So - WRF-Rowdy
It would appear that many of us got it wrong and increased the CO setting.

 

 

I'd agree.

 

 

Would you be willing to describe how to hook up the Euro tool, since their site says tool does not come with instructions...

 

 

 

Sure, FI diagnostic hookup :

1 the croco-clamps got the the battery terminals.

2 the green wire needs some kind of contact pin soldered to it (that's what I did)

   or you could stick a thin paperclips wire into the EFI connector on your WR

  (the ead end 3-way connector behind the left side panel)

  and somehow connect it to the green wire.

 

3 don't forget to hold down "mode" button when switching on bikes ignition, so the CO adjusment mode is accessible.

 

Here is a nice posting describing the FI diag. tool,

http://www.thumperta...ool/?p=11750939

it's accurate, except for the claim that one mustn't start the engine with the tool connected, that's false.

 

Suggestion on how to do the DIY-cable for the green wire of the tool:

http://www.thumperta...nly/?p=12374140

 

Where to find the 3-way connector (pic of my WR, yellow circle is where it's at):

http://www.thumperta...ttach_id=239242


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, June 29, 2015 - 09:25 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted July 04, 2015 - 12:16 AM

#54

An even nicer solution to avoid them battery clamps w/o purchasing the +100 USD "sub-harness"

is to get one of these Sumitomo 3-way sealed connector kits from Corsa. :thumbsup:

http://www.corsa-tec...category_id=105

The nice part is they sell "kits" complete with pins (mine came with four pins, great if you mess up) and seals

 

And while you are at it you might pick up say the 4-way connector to play with the O2 sensor.

 

 

Result: ;)

CO-Tool-Sumitomo.jpg

 

edit:  WARNING ! :smashpc:

Just checked that setup. Polarity is fine (I copied it from hte PowerTuner) but the red "+12 V wire" is switched with Ignition.

That means with the CO-tool connected (no power), holding down the mode button while powering on ignition

will NOT get you into CO adjustment mode, just the montioring mode with rpm display. :banghead:

 

As the only difference is that when connected with the battery clamps

the CO tool was already up and running before one powered up the ECU,

the CO tool needs "permanent 12V", not the version provided by the connector, :rolleyes:

which gets switched on by the ignition-switch.

Gotta do some schematics seach, stay tuned...

 

edit2: I think I'll reroute the input side of the diode, that provides 12V to the CO-Tool/PowerTuner connector

(item #27 in the wiring diagram) to solid battery plus, instead of the current switched ignition plus.

That way connecting the CO-tool would power it up before the ECU, just as the battery clamp connectors did.

 

edit3: screw that. While sitting on the can (best place for ideas) I decide I'll remove the diode completely and

use its CO-Tool_connecion_side terminal to feed in battery 12V.

That way I even could monitor/CHARGE the battery from the CO-/PowerTuner connector,

and I don't need to open up the harness.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, July 04, 2015 - 12:58 AM.


  • boston460

Posted July 07, 2015 - 05:08 AM

#55

Just a word of caution if you're thinking of buying a Chinese version of the Fi diagnostic tool.
Many people that bought them were unable to get them to work.
If you can afford it buy the Yamaha branded unit.

  • drdanbozeman

Posted July 07, 2015 - 06:05 AM

#56

Just a word of caution if you're thinking of buying a Chinese version of the Fi diagnostic tool.
Many people that bought them were unable to get them to work.
If you can afford it buy the Yamaha branded unit.

 

The Yamaha branded FI diagnostic tool was $114.00 [depends on current Euro exchange rate] from the company in the Netherlands referenced above and shipping took less than a week. The Chinese tool is listed at about $230. So the Yamaha tool is much more affordable.


Edited by drdanbozeman, July 07, 2015 - 06:09 AM.


  • boston460

Posted July 07, 2015 - 06:46 AM

#57

The Yamaha branded FI diagnostic tool was $114.00 [depends on current Euro exchange rate] from the company in the Netherlands referenced above and shipping took less than a week. The Chinese tool is listed at about $230. So the Yamaha tool is much more affordable.


That's good that the price has come down on the genuine units. It was the other way around in 2013.

  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted July 07, 2015 - 07:00 AM

#58

edit3: screw that. While sitting on the can (best place for ideas) I decide I'll remove the diode completely and

use its CO-Tool_connecion_side terminal to feed in battery 12V.

That way I even could monitor/CHARGE the battery from the CO-/PowerTuner connector,

and I don't need to open up the harness.

 

That's the working setup, where the FI diagnostic tool is powered up as soon as it is connected:
20150704_141515.jpg

 

The ugly aspect: the 12V connection is not fused. As soon as a get a Round Tuit, I'll fix that.


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, July 07, 2015 - 07:04 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted September 15, 2015 - 03:05 AM

#59

Sorry i'm not a mechanical guru Rowdy, but you said "solution: set CO to -4 or -10" then you said you currently run CO at -24.  I'm confused, and I believe this can only be done with a FI diagnostic tool? Thanks

panta rei, my friend. From the inital pre-owners hint "pull the hot start button slightly"

I deducted, that typical CO setting ist way too rich. So I ventured out to search for the sweet spot,

by setting a low idle rpms and testing for the min/max CO settings which kill the engine,

planning to set CO right in between.

I found it very absurd, that one would have to set CO to that negative a value, in the back of the mind thinking

yamaha can't possibly have designed "CO=0" to be that rich, so at -10 I felt like a bad engine tuner, kinda.

 

Enter the european header pipe with O2 sensor.

That sensor enabled me to measure in a rather crude way on what side of "perfect air fuel ratio" (prefect in the sense of the EPA) of lambda=1my setting is

.

As documented here www.thumpertalk.com/topic/1143864-efi-co-value-fi-diagnostic-vs-af-ratio/ one has go go very negative in that CO setting to finally hit lambda 1.

That is where -26 came from. That is the CO setting where my bike - when hot - will idle nicely, with the O2 sensor hoping around 0.5 Volts, as it would do in a  closed loop system.

I opted for a slightly richer setting of around -20, as -26 will have the bike pop noticably more on decel.

Basically I richened the mixture von -26 to a point where the bike still will start ERVERYTIME on the first push IN GEAR, w/o having it pop unnecessarily much.

 

Sadly the euro header w/ O2 sensor has a slightly smaller diameter, hence I had to mount the euro muffler, too. 

However, those two mufflers internally look extremely similar (except for the pea shooter tip that comes wiht the euro muffler)

so one can ride with them w/o problem, and when using the racing tip power feels the same.

 

Currently I'm back on the racing exhaust, saving the euro stuff for further O2 measurements and to keep them nice and shiny should I sell the bike sometime.

 

btw. that's where I got my CO tool from http://www.cmsnl.com...ool_9089003182/

 

I learned that the CO tool allows for extremely fine mixture adjustment (26 step might be what 1,5 turns on an old school mixture screw might be)

I learned that the EFI WRs fire up in gear first button blip (IF you keep the throttle fully closed!)


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, September 15, 2015 - 03:22 AM.


  • WRF-Rowdy

Posted September 15, 2015 - 03:08 AM

#60

I have a Sharai lithium iron battery, have my CO set to 7, TPS to 11.
 

Give -7 a try, and then -17. :thumbsup:  

If it doesn't start better, blame me here in public, I'll apologize for the waste of time my hint was for you.

If it indeed does start better, spread the word! ;)


Edited by WRF-Rowdy, September 15, 2015 - 03:17 AM.





 
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