2012+ WR450F Camshaft Upgrade Info.



187 replies to this topic
  • Jonesy11

Posted August 27, 2014 - 11:55 AM

#61

So has anyone put the hot cams cam in it. I want to get the gytr head and cam upgrade but still saving.

  • Mbirt

Posted August 27, 2014 - 12:03 PM

#62

This is why I'd highly suggest anyone looking to develop a 450 cc single to check out the ATV forums or talk to flattrack developers like Ron Hamp.  There's just not a significant need for outright performance development with 450 cc dirtbikes in most ways that they're used.  The threads at YFZ central have a better signal:noise ratio but there's still bickering there related to builder fanboyism and trail vs. dune vs. drag use of the engine.



  • GP1K

Posted August 27, 2014 - 12:12 PM

#63

This is why I'd highly suggest anyone looking to develop a 450 cc single to check out the ATV forums or talk to flattrack developers like Ron Hamp.  There's just not a significant need for outright performance development with 450 cc dirtbikes in most ways that they're used.  The threads at YFZ central have a better signal:noise ratio but there's still bickering there related to builder fanboyism and trail vs. dune vs. drag use of the engine.

 

Bingo! Even in the world AMA pro SX/MX racing, they don't build 450 motors much, just tune the power to suit their rider's preference, that's about it. OTOH, the 250Fs are still built-to-the-hilt rolling time bombs, and if you're not on a factory bike, you have pretty much no chance of winning or even being competitive. Not so on a 450.

 

But don't forget, MLCG is way better/faster than those AMA pros, he NEEDS that extra top end power of YZ cams... to ride in tight woods. Derp.



  • Mbirt

Posted August 27, 2014 - 12:12 PM

#64

So has anyone put the hot cams cam in it. I want to get the gytr head and cam upgrade but still saving.

I tested almost all of the Hot Cams that will fit in the 2012 WR engine.  The various links to YFZ Central in this thread will show you the results.  The Stage 1 (4023) is a very top-end focused cam.  I would suggest the 4097 (YFZ450 Stage 3) or the 4237 (YFZ450R Stage 3).



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 01:32 PM

#65

Updated cam table. attachicon.gifCam table snapshot4.jpg

 

The stock 2007+ WR exhaust cams do not use YZ cam timing with the YZ cam mod or not.

2007- WR 450F exhaust LCA = 126.5 degrees

2007 WR 450F exhaust LCA = 113.5 degrees.

2007 WR 450F exhaust LCA with YZ mod = 91 degrees. <- not my math !

2006 YZ 450F exhaust LCA = 104 degrees.

2008 YZ450F exhaust LCA = 99.5 degrees.

 

So the stock 2007+ WR 450F has an LCA about 10 degrees more than a YZ cam (113.5 versus 99.5 to 104.5), but is 13 degrees less than a pre 2007 WR cam.

 

An advanced 2007+ WR exhaust cam has an LCA of 91 degrees, which is less than everything including a 2008 YZ450F, at 99.5 degrees.

 

Question: how many degrees is a tooth on a WR camshaft ?  I've seen 26, 13 and now 22.5 (113.5-91).   Must be 22.5 degrees because 126.5 (early WR) minus 104 (early YZ) = 22.5 as well.

 

I think there are some typos in there



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 27, 2014 - 02:36 PM

#66

Nope I don't know it all, and neither do you. But I tend to listen to people with more real-world experience than me, not people with little experience and lots of online research time.

 

WR cams are NOT designed to work the best with the highly restrictive exhaust system. The highly restrictive exhaust system (and throttle stop, etc) are all purely to pass emissions. Pretty much nobody rides their WR showroom stock. The cams were designed to run with the bike uncorked. Otherwise, it would run WORSE when uncorked, but it doesn't. It runs way, way better. I'm surprised you didn't already know this, given your exhaustive cam research.

 

It's not that I don't want more power, it's that I realize more power, especially in the upper RPMs, is simply not going to help me go faster in the woods, or make my bike any easier to ride fast in the woods. In fact, it would have the polar opposite effect. I've owned some of the biggest and baddest sport bikes ever made: GSXR1000 and Hayabusa. I &%$#@!ing LOVE power, but I'm also a smart and experienced enough rider to know when there's too much power, and for where I ride, a 450 is too much power & too much weight, and I can't ride it as hard/fast as long. Just like 99.9% of all riders. As such, I'd bet my left nut YOU would be faster on a 250F too. Unless of course you're god's gift to riding, and have learned more in one year than most do in a lifetime, and are just so naturally talented you're a pro caliber rider after just a year, cuz that is about the only person that benefits from more top end power in a woods bike. If so, you really need to call Joe Gibbs Racing, they can always use talent like yours. Get rid of those slow kids Brayton and Grant, and hire you instead.

 

The fact that you mock my KTM as 'nice safe stock 250F' proves just how clueless you are. Wanna know why my KTM is 'stock'? Because it's ready to rock right off the showroom floor. It doesn't need to be uncorked or remapped, new exhaust etc. It's already there. Just sprung it for my weight, armored it up and it's good to go. I had to spend nearly a grand just to get my WR to run right. You've been riding one year, on one bike, You have jack shit for a frame of reference, yet talk like you know everything there is to know about bikes, when it's patently obvious you don't. I rode a 250F for 8 years, then decided to try something new, so I got the WR450. It was too much weight and too much to manage in the terrain I ride. It was fun as hell in the right places, but overall it slowed me down. So I went back to a 250F, and couldn't be happier. If I rode in more open/faster terrain, the WR would be a better choice. But I don't, so it isn't.

 

My 'insecurity' that you might reinvent the wheel and revolutionize motorcycling as we know it? Yeah right. If anyone is insecure here, it is you. You mock my 'safe 250' like only 'real men' like you can handle a 450, right?. I'd love to see you try to keep up with some of my buddies on their woods-out 125 smokers. You couldn't keep them in sight for 3 corners. And then have them take you on trails where you'd be begging them to ride your bike out for you. It would be most entertaining, and a big reality check for you.

 

There's an old saying, it's better to ride a slow bike fast, than ride a fast bike slow. And I guarantee you're riding that fast bike slow. I rebuke you posts, as you posit your theories as fact, refuse to listen to people with more knowledge and experience than you, and thus need to be called out for it. Perfect example: in this very thread, you state 'YZ cams losing bottom end is myth'. And you know this for a fact how, exactly? You've already done it, and run dyno tests before and after to prove it? Of course not, you've just read about it a bunch, and cherry pick that info fit your narrative because you WANT it to be true, not because you've actually proven and shown it to be true.

 

But hey, knock yourself out. Go slap in your YZ cams, and tell us how it does. I can't wait for the ride report. Don't forget the before & after dyno tests either. Your butt-dyno doesn't count.

 

Blah, blah, blah.


I think there are some typos in there

 

Point them out if they are, please.  They are wrong in the table too then.



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 27, 2014 - 02:38 PM

#67

Put the cams in and go for a ride.

 

Just picked up shims to reshim my valves.  I'll test it this weekend. I won't be dynoing it.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 03:23 PM

#68

2007- WR 450F exhaust LCA = 126.5 degrees
2007 WR 450F exhaust LCA = 113.5 degrees.
2007 WR 450F exhaust LCA with YZ mod = 91 degrees. <- not my math !
2006 YZ 450F exhaust LCA = 104 degrees.
2008 YZ450F exhaust LCA = 99.5 degrees.
 
Help me understand why the first three cams are noted as being the same cam with different timings.


  • DRS

Posted August 27, 2014 - 03:33 PM

#69

ride more post less...



  • revelc

Posted August 27, 2014 - 03:47 PM

#70

Blah, blah, blah.


Point them out if they are, please. They are wrong in the table too then.


Dude, this thread is quickly turning into a fecal flinging fracas. The information is a cluster ----. Your arrogance is palpable. If cams were the ticket to hauling ass there would be a HUGE following and market.

You seem like an all or nothing kind of guy to me. Manic, obsessive, and narrow minded. Those traits can be great for individuals who can focus those qualities. They can also give one a rebellious and pig headed appearance. Don't get me wrong, being a rebel is a part of riding. But you can't shit on the wiser riders.



I had a 2014 WR250R. Yes the R, that I set up to ride single track where I most often ride. It was fat, slow, and heavy. But I was faster on that dual sport than I am on the new 450 in the tight shit.

It's lighter yet it is more of a handful at full stop hairpin turns or weaving between saplings

I got the bigger bike because it was over $1,000 cheaper than another WR250R and I am 6'3" 220 pounds.
.

On two-track trails though I fly on the 450 and leave my buddies behind because its in its element. Winding stretches of dirt with non aggressive turns.

I think the best thing you can do to become a faster rider is, get your bike back to stock form, practice keeping speed in corners, and use lots of gas. If you don't get any faster then you have a few options.
Hop up the motor to your hearts content.
Turbo kit.
Sell your bike and get a 300 2T bike.
Sell your bike and give up your dreams of becoming a somebody through riding.

I am a new rider myself.
I rode through an ice storm when nobody could drive their cars on the road.
I rode in the rain.
I rode every day.
I rode just to ride.
I put over 5,000 local miles on it in 6 months.

The speed I have picked up on the trail so far didn't require me to turn one bolt. It's all been because of saddle time and LISTENING to guys that have ridden a long time.

If you really want a 60HP trail bike go get the KTM 500. You will end up wasting money and time trying to make something out of the WR that it isn't.

If you surrender the cam thing and move on it isn't a personal defeat. It's an opportunity to learn. I think your investing WAY too much of yourself in this issue man.





2014 WRR R.I.Pieces
2012 WR450F ECU, GYTR tuner, Yoshi RS4, MSR rad guards, Cycra Pros, and a growing wish list...

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • cracker please

Posted August 27, 2014 - 04:08 PM

#71


As you can see in the thread above, you've got a huge number of choices available.  The 06-09 YFZ and 08-09 YZ intake cams are the same but with a 10 degree change in lobe center.  The YFZ cam is a 107 deg lobe center an the YZ cam is a 97 deg lobe center (very tight).  The 08-09 YZ cam closes the intake valves 45 deg ABDC, while the stock WR cam closes the intake valves at 46.5 ABDC.  This will mean that the YZ cam gives greater "hit" but less top-end power, while the YFZ cam will make more peak power.  Both are good upgrades over the 7.7 mm lift, 234 deg. duration WR intake cam used to detune the bike.  The YZ cam will be more sensitive to exhaust (overlap), while the YFZ cam will be more sensitive to intake tuning (later intake valve closing).  The delayed IVC of the YFZ cam also means you can add more compression without knock.

 

The 06-09 YFZ intake cam was also used for one year in the 06 WR and YZ.



  • GP1K

Posted August 27, 2014 - 04:33 PM

#72

Dude, this thread is quickly turning into a fecal flinging fracas. The information is a cluster ----. Your arrogance is palpable. If cams were the ticket to hauling ass there would be a HUGE following and market.

You seem like an all or nothing kind of guy to me. Manic, obsessive, and narrow minded. Those traits can be great for individuals who can focus those qualities. They can also give one a rebellious and pig headed appearance. Don't get me wrong, being a rebel is a part of riding. But you can't shit on the wiser riders.



I had a 2014 WR250R. Yes the R, that I set up to ride single track where I most often ride. It was fat, slow, and heavy. But I was faster on that dual sport than I am on the new 450 in the tight shit.

It's lighter yet it is more of a handful at full stop hairpin turns or weaving between saplings

I got the bigger bike because it was over $1,000 cheaper than another WR250R and I am 6'3" 220 pounds.
.

On two-track trails though I fly on the 450 and leave my buddies behind because its in its element. Winding stretches of dirt with non aggressive turns.

I think the best thing you can do to become a faster rider is, get your bike back to stock form, practice keeping speed in corners, and use lots of gas. If you don't get any faster then you have a few options.
Hop up the motor to your hearts content.
Turbo kit.
Sell your bike and get a 300 2T bike.
Sell your bike and give up your dreams of becoming a somebody through riding.

I am a new rider myself.
I rode through an ice storm when nobody could drive their cars on the road.
I rode in the rain.
I rode every day.
I rode just to ride.
I put over 5,000 local miles on it in 6 months.

The speed I have picked up on the trail so far didn't require me to turn one bolt. It's all been because of saddle time and LISTENING to guys that have ridden a long time.

If you really want a 60HP trail bike go get the KTM 500. You will end up wasting money and time trying to make something out of the WR that it isn't.

If you surrender the cam thing and move on it isn't a personal defeat. It's an opportunity to learn. I think your investing WAY too much of yourself in this issue man.





2014 WRR R.I.Pieces
2012 WR450F ECU, GYTR tuner, Yoshi RS4, MSR rad guards, Cycra Pros, and a growing wish list...

 

This. All of this. Couldn't agree more.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 04:41 PM

#73

ride more post less...

 

...yeah, if it were winter or something that would be one thing.....



  • MidlifeCrisisGuy

Posted August 27, 2014 - 04:45 PM

#74

Whatever

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 04:50 PM

#75

Dude, this thread is quickly turning into a fecal flinging fracas. The information is a cluster ----. Your arrogance is palpable. If cams were the ticket to hauling ass there would be a HUGE following and market.

You seem like an all or nothing kind of guy to me. Manic, obsessive, and narrow minded. Those traits can be great for individuals who can focus those qualities. They can also give one a rebellious and pig headed appearance. Don't get me wrong, being a rebel is a part of riding. But you can't shit on the wiser riders.



I had a 2014 WR250R. Yes the R, that I set up to ride single track where I most often ride. It was fat, slow, and heavy. But I was faster on that dual sport than I am on the new 450 in the tight shit.

It's lighter yet it is more of a handful at full stop hairpin turns or weaving between saplings

I got the bigger bike because it was over $1,000 cheaper than another WR250R and I am 6'3" 220 pounds.
.

On two-track trails though I fly on the 450 and leave my buddies behind because its in its element. Winding stretches of dirt with non aggressive turns.

I think the best thing you can do to become a faster rider is, get your bike back to stock form, practice keeping speed in corners, and use lots of gas. If you don't get any faster then you have a few options.
Hop up the motor to your hearts content.
Turbo kit.
Sell your bike and get a 300 2T bike.
Sell your bike and give up your dreams of becoming a somebody through riding.

I am a new rider myself.
I rode through an ice storm when nobody could drive their cars on the road.
I rode in the rain.
I rode every day.
I rode just to ride.
I put over 5,000 local miles on it in 6 months.

The speed I have picked up on the trail so far didn't require me to turn one bolt. It's all been because of saddle time and LISTENING to guys that have ridden a long time.

If you really want a 60HP trail bike go get the KTM 500. You will end up wasting money and time trying to make something out of the WR that it isn't.

If you surrender the cam thing and move on it isn't a personal defeat. It's an opportunity to learn. I think your investing WAY too much of yourself in this issue man.





2014 WRR R.I.Pieces
2012 WR450F ECU, GYTR tuner, Yoshi RS4, MSR rad guards, Cycra Pros, and a growing wish list...

 No one can take your 'the 250R was better' comment seriously....unless it's flat ground, no debris, blue groove, and you weight 130lbs....and still, the R is a POS dirt bike...

 

So what if he likes puzzles. I like puzzles to.

The problem with puzzles you make yourself is the farther you go into it, the farther you have to go into it, to even find the end, let alone get there.

 

I started the puzzle of YZ front fork tuning and finally came the too-late conclusion that YZ fork tubes are too stiff for the WR, and make it a much harsher ride, not matter how you tune the fork.

So merely putting on YZ forks on the WR is another compromise. Better everything, but flexx, so you get a harsh ride on some terrain and speeds. Not a deal-breaker, but not perfect.

That is why the new WR has 'forks based on the YZ450' (they share only a few parts), just like the Honda X and R; you need flex in lots of places on a Off-road bike that you don't want with an MX

 

The cam is the same thing

More is not the answer to the problem of wanting 'more power'. That statement is so full of holes, it has to be re-defined to the n'th degree for it to mean anything.

Putting YZ cams on a WR, all on it's own, is a compromise.

Ignition mapping can get you most of the way to solving the low end loss, but not all the way. FI  and IG mapping is =/- 10% change at best. 

...and then you have the problem of the power delevery being non-linear, and stepped (two distinct powerbands across the rpm range)

 

On the Hondas, there is a magical synergy when you use an '02 R cam on any 450X. More power, better power, all the time. It's so good all the factory off road teams used it (with head work).

No one has yet found this magic combination on the WR with YZ cams. The head is just not very good for that. 

 

 

Regarding the 'ultimate cam puzzle':

There are too many variables between years to make any comparison between years, unless you talking about using only one motor year, with multiple cam options and multiple cam timing options, and possibly (3) optional maps for each cam.

 

....but the problem is permutations.......over 6 billion by my estimate.... 

 

So........


Edited by Kah Ran Nee, August 27, 2014 - 04:59 PM.


  • RockerYZWR

Posted August 27, 2014 - 06:24 PM

#76

Hkq3c.gif



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 06:39 PM

#77

I need another like button



  • cubera

Posted August 27, 2014 - 08:25 PM

#78

Three questions please:

What cams?

With what mapping?

Head porting or no? If yes by whom.

  • cracker please

Posted August 27, 2014 - 08:32 PM

#79

You'll shoot your eye out, kid.



  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 27, 2014 - 08:44 PM

#80

You know, Yamaha makes a ready-made, off the shelf, fully built racing head for your newer WR450's...................

 

 ... with the stock cam or not.....

 

http://www.ebay.com/...=p2054897.l4275

 

 

http://www.powerpart...=1&showAll=true


Edited by Kah Ran Nee, August 27, 2014 - 08:45 PM.





 
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