Clutch problems



159 replies to this topic
  • aust014

Posted August 31, 2014 - 09:02 PM


So you need to remove the sub frame correct? Once that is done you remove the bolt from the connecting rod and the the one on the top? Any other tips? What should I not do?



  • ThumpMe

Posted September 01, 2014 - 05:45 AM


I believe that you believe that !
I understand, and agrree with you that they can look bad, but not be bad.... but it's pointless to re install them, as they are metalurically compromised anyway....and usually they are bad, just not obviously.
 
It's not about being 'bent' it's about high spots on the plate. 
Once they blue, they get high spots....spots of height change so small that you need a micrometer to see them. 
If you put the plate on a reference flat surface (not a marble kitchen counter top....) you will see the imperfections caused by heat distress, as gaps of light.
 
Just stacking the plates might show this, but not usually.


Metallurgically compromised? I seriously doubt anything you can do to a clutch plate in an engine no matter how hard you flog it will change the metallurgical makeup or content of the steel. You might possibly get it hot enough to change the temper, but I am not even sure what hardness clutch plates are....I would imagine they are probably just a real mild probably non-carbon (Which means they cannot be tempered) steel... given what they do.

High spots ARE when plates are warped, blue color just means they got real hot...sometimes when they get that hot they warp and sometimes they do not. This is why in most manuals they tell you to check the flatness AND thickness, not the color.

Flatness is checked by laying the plate on a KNOWN flat surface such as a mill or drill press table or better yet a granite surface plate or block and checking for warpage. I believe in the WR manuals it is like .004 of an inch. With the naked eye you can see light between two surfaces down to about 1 ten thousandth of an inch .00001(which is real small! Like taking one of you hairs and slicing it into 30 pieces, longitudinally or along the axis!) so just seeing light is not an accurate check. That is why it is checked with feeler gauges.

Then you check the thickness with a mic. In a bunch of places all around each plate. Usually the wear will occur on the fiber ones, but occasionally you see a steel one with wear.

Then if it is out of tolerance replace it. Otherwise they are good to use again. I will add one exception though. Sometimes a fiber one gets glazed. This is usually from it getting real hot and sort of cooking the oil into the fibers. Have heard some people say you can sand them to remove this but Ijust prefer to not abuse my clutch that much in the first place.

  • stevethe

Posted September 01, 2014 - 06:21 AM


Took the plates out today to inspect them here's a few pictures, a week or so ago I found some 08 plates on ebay that were used but only $28.00 so I replaced the plates with those. Still dragging so I don't really know what to do anymore and neutral is so hard to get into if the bike is running :facepalm: . Hey Kah Rah Nee you think that washer trick would help with this in anyway? Oh and to top things off I found a crack on the top of the housing of the clutch  :banghead: . If any of you know Crash279; I asked him about it and he said to leave it alone unless oil starting shooting out. Btw I believe that the crack was there before the clutch was opened.

 

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 photo23_zpse8d0be52.jpgphoto1_zps89299aed.jpgphoto14_zps3bec5fe3.jpg

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Your plates are toast, you can see the shiny high spots. Blue plates are generally the sign !

 

You shouldn't of bought used plates. 

 

After another day up in the piute mountains going down clear creek and up the thrashing clear cut trail I will say Hinson clutch plates are the answer.  (There are clutch plates laying off to the side of the trail, it is a very tough trail)  Could of been a Recluse squirrel. 

 

The bike disengages perfectly. It starts in first gear no problem with the clutch pulled in. No warp age yet . Very easy to find neutral. The WR clutch fix. Try them, but use different springs Hinson are too stiff.


Edited by stevethe, September 01, 2014 - 06:23 AM.


  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 10:27 AM


Hey guys got the rear shock removed! Well now I have no idea what to do about seeing what the squeak is, you guys have any suggestion to what to do now? Here's some pictures:

photo2_zps7e467618.jpg

photo53_zps4f9116a3.jpg

photo43_zpsf6b055c8.jpg

photo33_zps5d74ab07.jpg

photo25_zpse446365a.jpg

photo15_zps2ef7093a.jpg



  • GuyGraham

Posted September 01, 2014 - 10:32 AM


Metallurgically compromised? I seriously doubt anything you can do to a clutch plate in an engine no matter how hard you flog it will change the metallurgical makeup or content of the steel. You might possibly get it hot enough to change the temper, but I am not even sure what hardness clutch plates are....I would imagine they are probably just a real mild probably non-carbon (Which means they cannot be tempered) steel... given what they do.

High spots ARE when plates are warped, blue color just means they got real hot...sometimes when they get that hot they warp and sometimes they do not. This is why in most manuals they tell you to check the flatness AND thickness, not the color.

Flatness is checked by laying the plate on a KNOWN flat surface such as a mill or drill press table or better yet a granite surface plate or block and checking for warpage. I believe in the WR manuals it is like .004 of an inch. With the naked eye you can see light between two surfaces down to about 1 ten thousandth of an inch .00001(which is real small! Like taking one of you hairs and slicing it into 30 pieces, longitudinally or along the axis!) so just seeing light is not an accurate check. That is why it is checked with feeler gauges.

Then you check the thickness with a mic. In a bunch of places all around each plate. Usually the wear will occur on the fiber ones, but occasionally you see a steel one with wear.

Then if it is out of tolerance replace it. Otherwise they are good to use again. I will add one exception though. Sometimes a fiber one gets glazed. This is usually from it getting real hot and sort of cooking the oil into the fibers. Have heard some people say you can sand them to remove this but Ijust prefer to not abuse my clutch that much in the first place.

So much truth & knowledge here.

 

 

 

 

For years I struggled with slipping clutches on bikes

All I kept being told was stronger springs or the fibre plates were worn reducing the load on the springs as a few hundredths on each plate would accumulate over the entire clutch pack, but every time I mic'ed them up they would be in spec

 

The one bike, which the clutch dragged at standstill and slipped under load, the steels had dished through over heating so they were trying to push the fibre plates away but obvioulsy still contacted the fibres which I pulled the clutch lever in - hence the dragging and slipping from the same clutch

The other which just slipped, the oil had burnt onto the cork on the fibre plates and altered (reduced) its frictional properties - new fibre plates and the clutch was fine

 

Krannie - As an engineer I can tell you that in no way, as said above, can you metallurgically compromise the steel, just because it has gone blue

Blue just means that have reached approx 300°C

if they are made from a suffciently good grade of carbon steel that they can are hardened, then they will have been tempered already to prevent brittleness, and now they will have been tempered again which will have no effect effect to except to lower the hardness depending on what temperature they were tempered to originally.

Typically springs are tempered to blue colour. The chemical composition has not been altered

They cannot get high spots just because they get hot. Metal would have to be moved around to change the dimensional sizes like that

 

I have had blue plates that have been perfectly flat and have and have worked fine. Indeed after some use, and rubbing by the the fibre plates it removes the blue colour as long as they do not get hot again.


Edited by GuyGraham, September 02, 2014 - 09:02 AM.


  • GuyGraham

Posted September 01, 2014 - 10:35 AM


Hey guys got the rear shock removed! Well now I have no idea what to do about seeing what the squeak is, you guys have any suggestion to what to do now? Here's some pictures:

photo2_zps7e467618.jpg

photo53_zps4f9116a3.jpg

photo43_zpsf6b055c8.jpg

photo33_zps5d74ab07.jpg

photo25_zpse446365a.jpg

photo15_zps2ef7093a.jpg

 

 

 

Squeaks are nearly always knackered bearings

 

The lower shock bearing is probably rusted and knackered

 

Push out the inner bush, from the bearing, as shown in the first picture

I bet the needle roller bearing is rusted

 

New bearing, bush, and seals required

 

More than likely that some of the bearings in the linkage are also knackered

Don't just assume its the lower bearing in the shock

May even be the swingarm bearings


Edited by GuyGraham, September 01, 2014 - 10:47 AM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted September 01, 2014 - 11:35 AM


So much truth & knowledge here.

For years I struggled with slipping clutches on bikes

All I kept being told was stronger springs or the fibre plates were worn reducing the load on the springs as a few hundredths on each plate would accumulate over the entire clutch pack, but every time I mic'ed them up they would be in spec

 

The one bike, which the clutch dragged at standstill and slipped under load, the steels had dished through over heating so they were trying to push the fibre plates away but obvioulsy still contacted the fibres which I pulled the clutch lever in - hence the dragging and slipping from the same clutch

The other which just slipped, the oil had burnt onto the cork on the fibre plates and altered (reduced) its frictional properties - new fibre plates and the clutch was fine

 

Krannie - As an engineer I can tell you that in no way, as said above, can you metallurgically compromise the steel, just because it has gone blue

Blue just means that have reached approx 300°C

if they are made from a suffciently good grade of carbon steel that they can are hardened, then they will have been tempered already to prevent brittleness, and now they will have been tempered again which will have no effect effect to except to lower the hardness depending on what temperature they were tempered to originally.

Typically springs are tempered to blue colour. The chemical composition has not been altered

They cannot get high spots just because they get hot. Metal would have to be moved around to change the dimensional sizes like that

 

I have had blue plates that have been perfectly flat and have and have worked fine. Indeed after some use, and rubbing by the the fibre plates it removes the blue colour as long as they do not get hot again.

 

Yeah, I used the wrong terminoligy. I did not mean to impy the property of the steel was changed somehow.


Dude that shock has lost all it's oil, now covering the lower shock mount. 



  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 11:35 AM


Squeaks are nearly always knackered bearings

 

The lower shock bearing is probably rusted and knackered

 

Push out the inner bush, from the bearing, as shown in the first picture

I bet the needle roller bearing is rusted

 

New bearing, bush, and seals required

 

More than likely that some of the bearings in the linkage are also knackered

Don't just assume its the lower bearing in the shock

May even be the swingarm bearings

Ok thanks will try to get the inner bush from the bearing and see what's on the inside. Here's the link to the video, just if you didn't hear it. Just seeing if the video would help you make an assumption if it is the swing arm too. http://s1145.photobu...b.mp4.html?o=7 



  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 11:36 AM


Yeah, I used the wrong terminoligy. I did not mean to impy the property of the steel was changed somehow.


Dude that shock has lost all it's oil, now covering the lower shock mount. 

I sorta thought of that.. Does that mean the shock is shot? Or could it be fixed some how?



  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 11:55 AM


Squeaks are nearly always knackered bearings

 

The lower shock bearing is probably rusted and knackered

 

Push out the inner bush, from the bearing, as shown in the first picture

I bet the needle roller bearing is rusted

 

New bearing, bush, and seals required

 

More than likely that some of the bearings in the linkage are also knackered

Don't just assume its the lower bearing in the shock

May even be the swingarm bearings

Is this what you were talking about?

photo26_zpsea2cde88.jpg

photo17_zps24e12e01.jpg



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  • ThumpMe

Posted September 01, 2014 - 07:17 PM


Aust014: THIS time with your latest link I could hear it! Smoley Hokes!...wish I hadn't....THAT is a sound that will give you nightmares! I do not think I have ever heard one make those kinds of sounds. Looking at that latest picture it does appear that lower bearing was pretty dry...they come pretty under lubricated direct from the factory. Is that rust on the needle bearings?

Although I am in a desert state we used to ride up and back down this one canyon (pretty much every week) that had 26 great water crossings. Hitting those and splashing water everywhere was part of the afternoon cool down ritual in Summer, but it takes a real toll on swing arm, shock linkage, and
wheel bearings.

If you ride in lots of water you almost HAVE to disassemble the shock and linkage about once a year to inspect and re-pack them.

I also believe Kah Ran Nee is correct on his assessment that that shook looks to have blown a seal and lost all it's oil and pressure by the look of the dust/oil buildup all over the lower half of it.

Some shocks can be rebuilt and some cannot. I imagine these on the 400/450's are good enough quality that they can be rebuilt. I have a buddy who really got into this a while back and can tell by looking at them...I cannot though. He even went so far as to buy a nitrogen bottle so he can recharge them. I will ask him as he used to ride LOTS of blue colored machines but now has gone over the dark side.

What year make is your bike? I do not recall you posting that?

  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 07:58 PM


Aust014: THIS time with your latest link I could hear it! Smoley Hokes!...wish I hadn't....THAT is a sound that will give you nightmares! I do not think I have ever heard one make those kinds of sounds. Looking at that latest picture it does appear that lower bearing was pretty dry...they come pretty under lubricated direct from the factory. Is that rust on the needle bearings?

Although I am in a desert state we used to ride up and back down this one canyon (pretty much every week) that had 26 great water crossings. Hitting those and splashing water everywhere was part of the afternoon cool down ritual in Summer, but it takes a real toll on swing arm, shock linkage, and
wheel bearings.

If you ride in lots of water you almost HAVE to disassemble the shock and linkage about once a year to inspect and re-pack them.

I also believe Kah Ran Nee is correct on his assessment that that shook looks to have blown a seal and lost all it's oil and pressure by the look of the dust/oil buildup all over the lower half of it.

Some shocks can be rebuilt and some cannot. I imagine these on the 400/450's are good enough quality that they can be rebuilt. I have a buddy who really got into this a while back and can tell by looking at them...I cannot though. He even went so far as to buy a nitrogen bottle so he can recharge them. I will ask him as he used to ride LOTS of blue colored machines but now has gone over the dark side.

What year make is your bike? I do not recall you posting that?

Haha you made my night with the first thing you said  :lol:. It's a 2005 WR450, and I am certain it is either shot or needs to be rebuilt. I have seen rebuild kits for the rear shock and they cost $80  :(. Taking the shock over to the Yamaha dealer to have them tell me the fate of the shock. Found a used but in very good condition shock on ebay though for $80; which is very tempting. 



  • aust014

Posted September 01, 2014 - 08:01 PM


Oh forgot to mention this, I also removed the linkage to clean it up and see if the bearing need to be replaced and greased. Really hoping GuyGraham isn't right about the swing arm bearings, I don't want to remove the swing arm...   



  • ThumpMe

Posted September 01, 2014 - 08:49 PM


I had the rear end on my 400 start making a clunking several years after I got it, Was most noticeable when the rear wheel would leave the ground . I was real apprehensive about pulling the swing arm and linkage apart. Looking back I am not sure why. Probably cause I would rather ride than work on them?

 

 I have had bikes my whole life and ALWAYS done all the work on them myself just did not want to tear into it. 

 

 Anyway I finally did, as the shops wanted an arm and leg and I saved so many $$ it was well worth it. The money I saved from the shops I put into a manual, all the necessary replacement parts, and enough beer to easily see me through the job! It only took a couple easy after work nights, following the instructions in the manual.

 

 Since you are right there already I reccomend you check them out...it would REALLY suck to get it back together and in a few rides find out you have to go back into it..

 

 ALL my bearings were dry a few were shot, but easily replaced. The clunk ended up being the lower shock bushing and being lazy I even figured out a way to replace it (they are pressed in) without taking the shock out of the bike! Since then it has become a yearly task (to dissect, inspect, reject, and resurrect the rear suspension) and just part of the price of admission for being addicted to scooters!

 

 I DID pick up a little used shock for it off e-bay, think I paid around a hundred for mine though, and it was the best insurance policy I ever bought! The stock one lasted for years , I think probably just cause it KNEW I had a spare! I do buy quite a bit of used parts off them and have never had a bad one or any problems...knock on wood!



  • aust014

Posted September 02, 2014 - 05:20 AM


I had the rear end on my 400 start making a clunking several years after I got it, Was most noticeable when the rear wheel would leave the ground . I was real apprehensive about pulling the swing arm and linkage apart. Looking back I am not sure why. Probably cause I would rather ride than work on them?

 

 I have had bikes my whole life and ALWAYS done all the work on them myself just did not want to tear into it. 

 

 Anyway I finally did, as the shops wanted an arm and leg and I saved so many $$ it was well worth it. The money I saved from the shops I put into a manual, all the necessary replacement parts, and enough beer to easily see me through the job! It only took a couple easy after work nights, following the instructions in the manual.

 

 Since you are right there already I reccomend you check them out...it would REALLY suck to get it back together and in a few rides find out you have to go back into it..

 

 ALL my bearings were dry a few were shot, but easily replaced. The clunk ended up being the lower shock bushing and being lazy I even figured out a way to replace it (they are pressed in) without taking the shock out of the bike! Since then it has become a yearly task (to dissect, inspect, reject, and resurrect the rear suspension) and just part of the price of admission for being addicted to scooters!

 

 I DID pick up a little used shock for it off e-bay, think I paid around a hundred for mine though, and it was the best insurance policy I ever bought! The stock one lasted for years , I think probably just cause it KNEW I had a spare! I do buy quite a bit of used parts off them and have never had a bad one or any problems...knock on wood!

Ok do you have to remove the rear wheel to take the swing arm off? Or could I just take it right off with the wheel still attached? My bike is kinda in a tight spot in my shed... haha I don't have a garage and can't really move the bike to take the wheel off.



  • ThumpMe

Posted September 02, 2014 - 06:18 AM


I have never seen one done without taking the wheel off! Doing it that way would really make it a chore I bet.

It only take about a minute and will make it a LOT easier to pull, handle and especially re-install the swing arm. Raise the bike up and make sure it is level on a milk crate with 2x4's under it to get it high enough, or a nice square cut chunk or firewood, or even cinder blocks, you want it to be stable so it will not fall over when working on it. You do need at least a couple feet on each side as well so you can get in there and work on it as well as remember the swing arm pivot shaft has to pull out and is about 12 or so inches wide. Try to make as much room as possible as it is a chore working on something when you are real limited for space. I know cause my old garage was packed too! May be time to clean out and rearrange the shed!

  • aust014

Posted September 02, 2014 - 08:36 AM


I have never seen one done without taking the wheel off! Doing it that way would really make it a chore I bet.

It only take about a minute and will make it a LOT easier to pull, handle and especially re-install the swing arm. Raise the bike up and make sure it is level on a milk crate with 2x4's under it to get it high enough, or a nice square cut chunk or firewood, or even cinder blocks, you want it to be stable so it will not fall over when working on it. You do need at least a couple feet on each side as well so you can get in there and work on it as well as remember the swing arm pivot shaft has to pull out and is about 12 or so inches wide. Try to make as much room as possible as it is a chore working on something when you are real limited for space. I know cause my old garage was packed too! May be time to clean out and rearrange the shed!

 

Ok will try to get it removed tonight, never got the wheel fully removed before yet.. so should I just remove the rear caliper? Oh and I don't own a chain breaker could I just use a pliers to pry the master clip off and then take it off? 


Edited by aust014, September 02, 2014 - 09:15 AM.


  • aust014

Posted September 02, 2014 - 12:12 PM


Well the Yamaha shop is going to look at the spring tomorrow, should I just go ahead and get another shock or wait  for them to look at it?



  • stevethe

Posted September 02, 2014 - 12:25 PM


Well the Yamaha shop is going to look at the spring tomorrow, should I just go ahead and get another shock or wait  for them to look at it?


Spring ?
Thought you needed a seal job. Get a price and go from there.

  • aust014

Posted September 02, 2014 - 02:15 PM


Spring ?
Thought you needed a seal job. Get a price and go from there.

I meant like the whole shock he said today after looking at it for a minute that there wasn't any pressure on the spring, and he said that he doesn't think that that's oil on the bottom... But he said the "expert" will look at it tomorrow






 
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