Clutch problems

[aust014]

Well guys got everything off except for the bolt that holds the swing arm on..  the damn bolt will not budge ive tried forever to get the bolt out and it will not move; I also noticed that some of the threads are missing after removing the nut and the nut won't go back on    so now I NEED to get that removed to see if a C&C shop can re-thread it for me.

Hey Thumpme or anyone else do you know how to get this bolt out?

[ThumpMe]

Well guys got everything off except for the bolt that holds the swing arm on..  the damn bolt will not budge ive tried forever to get the bolt out and it will not move; I also noticed that some of the threads are missing after removing the nut and the nut won't go back on    so now I NEED to get that removed to see if a C&C shop can re-thread it for me.

Hey Thumpme or anyone else do you know how to get this bolt out?

I usually put a piece of wire through or around the caliper to help support it so it does not hang by the hose and hang that on the side of the bike.

The master link is probably a rivet on if it is still stock, but look because if it was changed at some point it MIGHT be removable...if not no biggie you just have to remember to put the chain back around the swing arm as you re-install the swing arm. Just leave it hanging on the c/shaft sprocket so it will sort of be in the way at re-assembly and that way you do not forget it.

Also mark the outside of the chain with a magic marker or something if you do pull it all the way out, or look at the master link for reference so you will get the chain back on running in the same direction as it has been. Not a real big deal but a good thing to try to do.

I should have mentioned that....it is a good idea to spray some penetrating oil on the nut and threads ahead of time to help loosen that nut. They can be real hard to loosen.

The swing arm bolts can get rusted in too so once the nut is off try and spray penetrating oil on both sides as hopefully some will wick into it.

I think I had to drive mine out once because of rust. I know you are not supposed to but I may have used a socket but it is better to use an aluminum bar or slug off an aluminum or brass bar to keep from trashing out the threads on it. But in order to get the right size if using a metal bar/slug you usually need access to a lathe to turn it down to the proper size...that is why I used the socket.

[aust014]

I usually put a piece of wire through or around the caliper to help support it so it does not hang by the hose and hang that on the side of the bike.

The master link is probably a rivet on if it is still stock, but look because if it was changed at some point it MIGHT be removable...if not no biggie you just have to remember to put the chain back around the swing arm as you re-install the swing arm. Just leave it hanging on the c/shaft sprocket so it will sort of be in the way at re-assembly and that way you do not forget it.

Also mark the outside of the chain with a magic marker or something if you do pull it all the way out, or look at the master link for reference so you will get the chain back on running in the same direction as it has been. Not a real big deal but a good thing to try to do.

I should have mentioned that....it is a good idea to spray some penetrating oil on the nut and threads ahead of time to help loosen that nut. They can be real hard to loosen.

The swing arm bolts can get rusted in too so once the nut is off try and spray penetrating oil on both sides as hopefully some will wick into it.

I think I had to drive mine out once because of rust. I know you are not supposed to but I may have used a socket but it is better to use an aluminum bar or slug off an aluminum or brass bar to keep from trashing out the threads on it. But in order to get the right size if using a metal bar/slug you usually need access to a lathe to turn it down to the proper size...that is why I used the socket.

My chain had a master link so I got that off, and put the caliper back on the axle. But I used a socket at first and it broke some of the threads  ?  and now the nut will not go back on. I tried to stick a screw driver in the hollow part of the bolt and bang on the back of that; but no movement.. So should I just use some penetrating oil on the bolt and then use the screw driver again (Or what?) and bang on it with a sledge hammer. I have the bike sitting up on the stand (not raised). By all this hard banging will I bend the frame or something; I read online about that happening to people. And again any more suggestions are welcomed  

[ThumpMe]

That is why it is better to use am aluminum or brass bar or slug, it is softer metal than the axle and will not ding up the threads.

The threads can be worked back into useable shape with a little time and a couple files. They make small triangular files (thread files) just for that purpose, and a small smooth (mill smooth) file also is good as it will cover a little larger and wider swath. You need to take your time on them and match the thread profile as you file them out. That or maybe find another swing arm bolt off e-bay, depending on how wankered up it is.

Do not force the nut or put a wrench on it as you can mess up the threads on it as well. Use the nut as a guide using only hand force. File a little look at it closely, file it some more, try the nut, repeat. It takes time and patience but can be done. Someone with a lathe and knowledge on how to do single point threads can knock it out fast but other wise it is a slow hand file process.

Squirt a BUNCH of penetrating oil in there. If you can sort of tilt the bike to the right and left just a little to help it run in too that might help get more oil in there. You want it primaril around the outside of the bolt, not so much inside the hollow part of it. Also applying heat...not a huge amount but enough to just make the oil start to smoke can help break rust free. Rust breaks down and cannot live in an environment of heat and oil. Use a propane torch NOT acetylene as with acetylene you can get things WAY to hot REALLY fast if not real familiar with how much heat they put out. Try to direct it right down the center of the bolt and maybe even run the torch up and down the swing arm pivot some where you can get heat to it. BE careful, as lots of stuff down there can melt, hoses and plastics. Use extreme caution around hoses that come of carb.

Try and find something just slightly smaller than the diameter of the swing arm bolt. A screwdriver may cause more problems in that it could swedge out the bolt due to it not hitting evenly on the end of bolt. Something that will just barely slide through the nut would be a pretty good diameter.

When I use a socket I turn it around and use the backside as it is more square and has a lot wider area of contact than the side that fits over a nut. Also I will put an extension into it through the nut side so I do not trash out the socket, and hit on the end of the extension.

Also, You should not really wail on it. Penetrating oil can take some time to loosen things up, spray it on, add some heat, bang on it a little, take a break let the oil work, repeat. LOTS of small to medium hits REAL square on what you are using to drive it out are way better than big huge hits. Takes longer but does not do near as much damage to other parts.

[aust014]

Yeah i'll try that, when I used that socket it snapped some of the threads off, so do you think it could be re threaded or needs a new bolt? Don't want to get the bolt out to find out I then have to order one and wait a week for it to arrive... Would any year work for the bolt like a 2012?

[ThumpMe]

Well we really got off on a tangent with this thread and since I helped with that let me see if I can help return it to the original  topic.

 

 Here are some pictures of the Clutch Boss that I just re-worked this morning to try and show where all the new holes are located.

 

 As mentioned previously STOCK holes are in ribs numbered 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. These are also the ribs with oil channels on the inner diameter.I DID NOT enlarge these six holes on this boss. But I DID add one more hole in the ribs numbered 1, 11, and 21 close to the front edge, actually about .150 in. This dimension is to the center of the hole from that front edge.

 

 My rib  numbers are counter clock wise as I used that back face that  the judder ring sits up against as a reference point and each STOCK hole is located out a little further from that face running CCW, starting with the #1 hole/rib being closest to it.. This face has a little red dot on it above the number four but not real noticeable so In the third picture I put a blue X on that face.

 

 The first picture shows the boss held in a vise with the drill positioned by eye so it will drill through the rib without breaking through on either side of the rib, Each rib is rotated up and checked like this prior to drilling to assure the drill will be centered in rib,.

 

 Picture #2 shows approximate positons of the holes to be added with the red dots. The little red lines on the left side show me which ribs will get a new hole added. I did spend some time looking at the locations in or out on the ribs to try and get the most uniform oil coverage with each new hole.

 

 In picture #3 you can see the red dots as well as where they are located between the stock holes located in ribs #1 & #6. You can also see where a new hole will be added in rib #1 out near the front edge.

 

 In picture #4 you see the finished boss. It now has two more holes added between each of the STOCK holes, as well as one more hole added in the oil channels in THREE  places but further out to get more oil under the first four clutch discs. This also shows the numbers for which ribs have had holes added to them.

 

 Hope that helps....and finally, you can mess with trying new/different oil, adding the new  clutch washers, changing WR to YZ springs, removing the judder ring and adding another disc,changing out all or some the plates,as well as changing the clutch actuation rod (as I did for three months)  OR just adding these 15 holes and one new four dollar fold over tab washer and fixing it the FIRST time into it.Your choice. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by ThumpMe

[aust014]

That's very helpful, so if I ever do it that's a good kind of guide.

[aust014]

Oh and for anyone else that was following the rear shock, the linkage bearings are shot, they said the spring didn't have a pre-load or something and he said it is leaking only a little bit of oil (which sounds bad to me but not to him). He also went on to say that a new rear shock is like a grand.. So I just went ahead and did what Thumpme did and got an extra shock.

Edited September 3, 2014 by aust014

[WillieV]

Well we really got off on a tangent with this thread and since I helped with that let me see if I can help return it to the original  topic.

 

 Here are some pictures of the Clutch Boss that I just re-worked this morning to try and show where all the new holes are located.

 

 As mentioned previously STOCK holes are in ribs numbered 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26. These are also the ribs with oil channels on the inner diameter.I DID NOT enlarge these six holes on this boss. But I DID add one more hole in the ribs numbered 1, 11, and 21 close to the front edge, actually about .150 in. This dimension is to the center of the hole from that front edge.

 

 My rib  numbers are counter clock wise as I used that back face that  the judder ring sits up against as a reference point and each STOCK hole is located out a little further from that face running CCW, starting with the #1 hole/rib being closest to it.. This face has a little red dot on it above the number four but not real noticeable so In the third picture I put a blue X on that face.

 

 The first picture shows the boss held in a vise with the drill positioned by eye so it will drill through the rib without breaking through on either side of the rib, Each rib is rotated up and checked like this prior to drilling to assure the drill will be centered in rib,.

 

 Picture #2 shows approximate positons of the holes to be added with the red dots. The little red lines on the left side show me which ribs will get a new hole added. I did spend some time looking at the locations in or out on the ribs to try and get the most uniform oil coverage with each new hole.

 

 In picture #3 you can see the red dots as well as where they are located between the stock holes located in ribs #1 & #6. You can also see where a new hole will be added in rib #1 out near the front edge.

 

 In picture #4 you see the finished boss. It now has two more holes added between each of the STOCK holes, as well as one more hole added in the oil channels in THREE  places but further out to get more oil under the first four clutch discs. This also shows the numbers for which ribs have had holes added to them.

 

 Hope that helps....and finally, you can mess with trying new/different oil, adding the new  clutch washers, changing WR to YZ springs, removing the judder ring and adding another disc,changing out all or some the plates,as well as changing the clutch actuation rod (as I did for three months)  OR just adding these 15 holes and one new four dollar fold over tab washer and fixing it the FIRST time into it.Your choice. 

Hey ThumpMe

I wanted to know how the cluch is doing?

 

Im seriously thinking of doing as you sugest, my WR450F (06) cluch binds a bit cant push the bike back while just holding the cluch i have to put it in nutral, and the bike kinda wanders off if you dont hold it with breaks

- i had to open the cluch to replace the cluch lever seal and in doing so i found my cluch plates stuck togeter.I pulled them apart and replaced the oil and the cluch was GREAT for a little while but then started binding again. So im positive that you are right there isnt enough oil going through the plates to losen them.....

 

Am i correct in saying the only replacement part ill need is the :

YAMAHA WASHER, LOCK (90215-20005-00)?

While i really appreciate your writeup im still kinda feint as to the exact location of the holes, i understand the rib numbers but the actual distance down the rib for each hole im not certain, the OEM holes are spaced evenly from the front to the rear...

Thanks for all the AWSOME info!!

[ThumpMe]

It is doing GREAT! I probably have 40 rides on it since I re-worked it last Summer and the engagement and feel are outstanding. These are full day rides, as I so not do half days! HA! Most of the areas we ride in are pretty technical with lots of first and second gear riding as well as quite a bit of clutch abuse thrown in due to the terrain.

 

 I like the feel, engagement, and lever feedback so much on it I just recently (about 5-6 weeks ago) went in and made all these same changes to the clutch on my '07 WR450 as well. The '07 always seemed to have a pretty stiff pull and would make me about want to cry by the end of a real long day as it would just thrash my hand, so while in there, I changed out the springs to new OEM ones for the '07  WR450. I am not positive but I think the previous owner had changed them out to stiffer springs as it is easier on my hand now on the longer days. 

 

Am i correct in saying the only replacement part ill need is the :

YAMAHA WASHER, LOCK (90215-20005-00)?

 

 

Yes, as long as you do not tear the gasket on the clutch cover. Be sure to get the right fold over tab locking washer for the year you are working on as they do have some small changes to them on some years so that locking washer is year model specific.

 

 

While i really appreciate your writeup im still kinda feint as to the exact location of the holes, i understand the rib numbers but the actual distance down the rib for each hole im not certain, the OEM holes are spaced evenly from the front to the rear...

 

 If you look at the six stock holes you will see that they are pretty evenly spaced BUT there are NO holes out behind the first four clutch plates. I think this allows the oil in there to get real hot when doing a lot of clutch work and it thickens up and sort of sticks things up due to very limited "flow". That is why I added the three additional holes out closer to the outside edge.

 

 I do  not think it is real critical on the locations of all the other additional holes I added and I just tried to space them out to get a real even flow of oil through that inner boss to all the plates.

 

 The '07 is still  hard starting at times (especially when in gear) but I believe that is due to it not quite being spot on in the carburetion department, and am going to dive into that here pretty soon. It percolates real nice once running, just has a tough time getting fired up. 

 

 

 

 .

[WillieV]

Sorry dono y i didnt get a notification bout your reply

 

Anyway Thanks a lot i ordered the lock washer and a cluch gasket just incase... i had to order the gasket for the stator side as well as im doing the stator mod... and wil most assuredly do your cluch mod!!

I saw a Cluch boss on Ebay for $10, just waitn for the guy to get back to me on shipping, then ill prob get it as a precaution... I stay in Zambia and there are NO SPARES! haha

 

I have very feint wear marks on the basket when i open it again to do the cluch mod i might file them smooth if i can feel bumps.... anyone think its a bad idea??

 

 

Cheers

W

[FORMA MOTO]

I did mine and the clutch action and pull are soooooooo much better. Best clutch I own now. Much better than the Brembo hydralics.

[WillieV]

Awsome thanks Krannie, good to know that i wont be #2 haha!! i think im gonna do it this weekend, but my washer will only be here in a week or so... so ill leave my cluch plates laying in oil while i wait for the washer if i cant get the old washer back in....???

[FORMA MOTO]

I am referring to the clutch hub and basket hole drilling modifications, not the spring shiming.

[WillieV]

Hey Krannie, Yes i know sorry i was talking about the Lock Washer,

I opened the cluch today and the lock washer broke so good thing i ordered a new one!!!

Will do the holes sometime the weekend..... but will have to wait for my spares to come, which will be a week or so

[ThumpMe]

WillieV

 

When I first started messing around on mine I ordered a boss off e-bay as well but I believe I paid around 35 dollars for it. Ten is real bargain. I would jump on that!

 

 I wanted a spare just in case the changes I made screwed it up or made it worse. By having one that was left stock I figured I could always go back to stock if I had to.

 

 I have since made the changes to it as well so it is ready to go should I ever wear out the one in there now. It is nice to have spare parts in stock just in case!

 

Use your finger nail or a metal six inch scale and pressing on it real lightly, slide it out on the ribs on the boss to see if it "catches" on any of the wear marks. Mine, even after all rides I had/have on it did not have any wear to speak of. These ribs on both parts do get the sort of polished up wear marks on them pretty fast from contact with the clutch plates, but takes quite a while and quite a bit of use for them to get deep enough that they start catching on the clutch plates upon release. Nice to know that with a little time, sandpaper, or a file you can put it back in order! 

 

 Krannie,

 

 Did you try out one of the Brembo juice clutches?

 

I looked at them and thought about it, but they are pretty pricey and stock cables are nice cause when a cable goes it is an easy fix to get it back in order.

 

Also I have seen a few buds on those orange machines have problems loosing seals out on the trail before and that sort of made me keep mine cable operated. We DID limp one buddies 300 back to the truck using chain saw bar oil!

[FORMA MOTO]

 

 

 Krannie,

 

 Did you try out one of the Brembo juice clutches?

 

I looked at them and thought about it, but they are pretty pricey and stock cables are nice cause when a cable goes it is an easy fix to get it back in order.

 

Also I have seen a few buds on those orange machines have problems loosing seals out on the trail before and that sort of made me keep mine cable operated. We DID limp one buddies 300 back to the truck using chain saw bar oil!

 

Juice clutch??

 

No way. I don't like Hydralic clutches. Pull is easier, but feel is not better, it's much worse. 

 

My KTM's had them, and they were reliable and almost as easy as my modd'ed WR clutch, but the feel just isn't there for slow speed work.

 

I did not mod my WR clutch system for lighter pull, I modded it for better disengagement. The lighter pull is just gravy.

 

I have no problems with a heavy pull clutch. 

 

You should try riding a motorcycle form the 70's if you want to experience a heavy clutch pull.............

Edited September 18, 2015 by KRANNIE

[WillieV]

Just a quick update:

 

I got the boss out... what a job! it was sooooo tight!!! will take it to my fathers milling press tomorow to do the holes. i do see the holes in the "back" of the boss is not machines through ( i saw the same on your post ThumpMe) they must be 1/2 the size they should be!!

 

The basket definitly has little grooves as well so will be filing them smooth with a very fine file....

 

and only the one little wing on my lock nut broke the other wing was never bent up so im guessing the lock nut can be used again? then i dont have to wait for the post man!!! haha

[FORMA MOTO]

Just a quick update:

 

I got the boss out... what a job! it was sooooo tight!!! will take it to my fathers milling press tomorow to do the holes. i do see the holes in the "back" of the boss is not machines through ( i saw the same on your post ThumpMe) they must be 1/2 the size they should be!!

 

The basket definitly has little grooves as well so will be filing them smooth with a very fine file....

 

and only the one little wing on my lock nut broke the other wing was never bent up so im guessing the lock nut can be used again? then i dont have to wait for the post man!!! haha

 

You can use it again as long as it does not have any cracks....it can disintigrate if there are cracks.

Edited September 18, 2015 by KRANNIE

[ThumpMe]

WillieV,

 

DO NOT open those six holes in the back of the boss up that go through that back wall to that full diameter size they start out at from the inside. I believe they are necked down like they are with only the drill point partially breaking through to sort of act as an oil  restrictor to sort of limit the amount of oil that escapes through that back wall. As I mentioned I took a real small rat-tail file and cleaned out the casting flash in them as well as filed a real small bell mouth or funnel shape to both inside and outside edges to aid the flow through but if opened up to much it could reduce the amount of oil that is forced though the boss holes out onto the inside of the clutch plates. 

 

 If you do use a fold over tab type washer a second time REALLY inspect it good AFTER re-bent for cracks as Krannie mentions, cause if one fails it can kill your motor or tranny. Most times they only fold over one tab but on occasions where I used one a second time I will try to get it lined up to where I can use a tab that was not previously folded over if possible, or use the one that was, as well as get a partial grip on the nut with another tab that was not folded over just for insurance.

 

Krannie,

 

 Yeah I agree about no feel on the hydraulic clutches. They are so easy you can pull one in using just your fingernail though!  

 

 I modded mine on my '03 to get rid of the pull or clutch drag when in gear, the added feel was just a bonus as I did not expect it. But then I  did my '07 cause I liked the feel on the '03 so much.

 

I never really had a problem even with the old dirt scoots I rode back in the seventies. Some were more pull, some less, but hey...you NEED to keep your hands strong! I always give my buddies that are on orange scooters a hard time about having girlie hands due to their light pull clutches.

 

 I think the one I saw/pulled was not a Brembo but a Magura. Still pricey though! Mine works fine with a cable!