Clutch problems



159 replies to this topic
  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 02:09 PM

#1

Hey guys this is my first post on Thumpertalk, but this is my 2005 WR450sm, well there is a problem when I am sitting on the bike with the clutch engaged (pulled in) the bike keeps on trying to creep forward.. I was wondering what others opinions are; if it is a notched clutch basket, or warped plates? I have adjusted the clutch cable over and over just to have it creep forward, this leads me to be it will take a pretty penny to fix.  :cry: Here's something that it weird I put the bike up on the stand started her up and with the bike in first gear with the clutch engaged the wheel spins at about 6-8 mph..  :goofy:  But thanks for anyone who replys!

wr4501_zpscfe95e79.jpgj



  • MaybeMe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 02:43 PM

#2

It could be clutch plates stuck together, high weight oil, notched basket.

Make sure you cable is adjusted right and engaging all the way when pulled.

Then take the clutch cover off, and check the plates and basket.

  • Dexter42

Posted August 21, 2014 - 02:50 PM

#3

My advice is to take the clutch cover off and the pressure plate. Remove the fibers and plates and inspect all plates for wear and tolerance per manual spec. You can deglaze the metal plates with some fine San paper and clean them after to reinstall. Inspect springs for wear and tolerance and last but not least your basket( inner and outer). More than likely these will have groves in them which In most cases you can clean them up with a file and sand paper. I went the extra mile and drilled holes on my outer basket on the "fins" I call them fins- to get more oil in there while you ride. This should take care of your drag problem, very common with worn down clutches. If you do end up doing this work post pictures of your clutches and baskets to see how bad or maybe not things are.

  • stevethe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:20 PM

#4

Hum sounds familiar read http://www.thumperta...-clutch-plates/

 

My findings were there were a couple of blue warped metal plates. But the Hinson doesn't creep and is easy to find neutral. Hinson springs that came in the kit are too stiff for me.



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:23 PM

#5

Thanks for the reply's, I am trying to adjust the clutch cable but not doing much.. Dexter43 and MaybeMe I will try to get around to opening the clutch up this weekend, the thing is I've never done this, so any pointers on how to go about it? What to watch out for, also drain the oil? or just lay the bike on its side? Anyone know of a online manual for a 05 wr450 or any year? 



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:29 PM

#6

Thanks for pointing me to your helpful topic ill have to take a look at the clutch sometime when I have the wits and time, if they are bad (which I hope not) Hinson will be the way to go, what website did you order from steve?



  • stevethe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:33 PM

#7

Thanks for pointing me to your helpful topic ill have to take a look at the clutch sometime when I have the wits and time, if they are bad (which I hope not) Hinson will be the way to go, what website did you order from steve?


I got mine from BTO motorsports.

It's very easy to do by the way. I just put mine on the side stand and don't even drain the oil. There must be a utube on it.

  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:37 PM

#8

Ok thanks ill try to give it a go this weekend and get pictures, sorry to ask a dumb question but when you are adjusting your clutch cable do you want some play with the lever or none at all?



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:41 PM

#9

Also just a little bit more information with the bike off and the clutch engaged in first gear this thing takes effort to roll. Would that mean the plates are rubbing?



  • stevethe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 03:59 PM

#10

Two questions:
Yes a little play is what you need.
Yes heavy clutch drag in first gear is likely a warped metal plate or plates.

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  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 21, 2014 - 04:12 PM

#11

Turn off the gas

Lay the bike down on it's left side (somewhere that the extra gas runoff isn't an issue)

 

Roll it back into your workshop, lay down again on it's left side

Remove the clutch cover screws

Don't tear the gasket

Keep track of bolt locations

Pull the clutch spring bolts

Pull all the plates

Clean the metals; if they are brown or blue, they are toast

Do NOT clean the fibers

Inspect the basket for notches......  .5mm is ok..  .75 is tolerable....both can be filed down....beyond that you need a new basket

Lay the metals down on a known perfectly flat surface to inspect for warping, if they appear good. Any warping what soever is not acceptable.

 

Replace clutch pack with Hinson / Barnett / OEM.  Try NOT to get a 'heavy duty' clutch pack, as they usually ruin the clutch feel, and drag even worse.

 

When re-installing the clutch spring bolts and cover bolts, be sure not to overtighten.

The torque specs are low, and if you use a torque wrench that goes beyond 25 ftlbs, the amount of error can be =/-  10 ftlbs.  

Use an inlbs torque wrench if possible.

I just do it by feel.

 

IMHO, stay away from Motorsport .com or Moose or Tusk Clutch kits. 



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 04:20 PM

#12

Thank you all! I will try to get around to taking it apart and inspecting the plates, and basket. If the plates look good could I soak them in oil overnight, can I just use the same oil I run in the bike? I heard someone say to drill holes in I think the basket correct? to get more oil to the plates



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 04:23 PM

#13

Thank you Kah Ran Nee for the detailed instructions it gives me a good idea on how to do it instead of guessing (and while working with motorcycles that's a bad deal)

 

- Last dumb question which I must say makes me feel that I am annoying you folks but is it okay to ride the bike for now I mean if the plates are toast I wouldn't be doing anymore harm correct?



  • stevethe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 05:46 PM

#14

If it's not too bad run it.

Try this http://m.youtube.com...h?v=NwYFgwnciMM

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 21, 2014 - 05:49 PM

#15

Well, if when you disengage the clutch it is not  all 'notchy', or if the engagement point is constantly changing, then you probably are out of time.  You should fix it.

 

You can have a fiber plate shatter and jam up the clutch....which will crack a drive gear....but it is not a common occurance....besides, it will take 15 min to open er up and take a look.......without changing the oil or needing a gasket or anything.

 

....having said that, I rode my 2003, 2005, 2006 ,2007#1

 2007#2, and 2008 with the stock clutches for over 500 hours each......without any issue...accept drag-y-ness, which is a WR trait anyway....



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 05:59 PM

#16

Ok good info, will have a last ditch attempt tomorrow to fine tune the clutch cable, if that doesn't work I will take the cover off and inspect the plates



  • ThumpMe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 08:04 PM

#17

I have been going at MY clutch drag problem all Summer long, and although I do seem to be gaining on it I am STILL having issues.

 

 I have a '99 400 that has the sweetest clutch I have ever had on ANY dirt scoot, or street bike for that matter, but unfortunately that year has no button on it so it has been turned into a DS bike cause I hate kicking em over all day out in the woods even though it starts first kick every time. We spend a LOT of time clearing and maintaining trails so LOTS of restarts, and I NEED a button!

 

 I am very surprised at what a GIANT leap backwards my '03 450 clutch is from the '99!

 

 I have checked all the plates and they are all good, flat, no burning, and look near new. The bike only has about 2500 miles on it.

 

 First attempt I tried the washers. They seemed to help while in the garage but once on the trail were a big FAIL! Creeps when in gear, keeps pulling at slow speeds when you pull clutch in and that sucks on tight knarly trails. Also real hard to find neutral. You can get it if you blip the throttle, but my real issue is the drag.

 

 Next, I tried replacing the judder spring and seat (which fit inside the innermost narrow cross section clutch plate) with a new full size clutch plate. This is how the YZ's of the same year are done. Not much change and when in the wet or rain you could feel it do this weird slip/judder on takeoffs. I opened it up again and tried adding YZ springs which really made it a LOT harder to pull and that wore my hand out PDQ. By about noon it was starting to cramp.Still did not cure the drag either.

 

 Next, I went into the clutch boss (innermost hub on the clutch) and noticed the six inner holes on the backside that allow the oil into the boss were really nasty looking holes with a lot of casting flash (burrs) built up around them. They are sort of strange holes in that only half the diameter of the drill point breaks through when they are machined but I figured that flash needed to be cleaned out so spent about an hour with an itty bitty file and opened and smoothed em out....figured a little more flow of oil might help. WRONG, no change.

 

 Next, I opened up the six holes that allow the oil to flow out of the boss onto the plates by fifteen thousandths (.015) I believe that calculated out to about 28 % more area which should flow quite a bit more oil. I have seen where they do this to the 250's and quite a few people rave about the results.We rode the next day in rain and it was a failure as well. Kept stalling the bike going DOWNHILL when I would pull the clutch in. Turned idle way up and that helped some but clutch would still drag at all slower speeds.

 

 Next, I picked up a used low mileage clutch off e-bay, so I took the boss on it, filed out the flash on the inlet holes and left the six outer holes stock size (.113) but added six more holes, same size in the same plane/rib as the six that were originally drilled into that boss. You want to keep them in the same plane as on the inside of the clutch boss there is a rib that catches the oil as it enters and directs it out a little channel cast in the boss to the outlet  holes. I also noticed that these six holes do not allow for hardly any oil to flow through to the outer 3-4 plates. Therefore I added three of the new six holes out near the outer front edge of the clutch boss. BIG DIFFERENCE! It still wants to creep a little, and will pull slightly when throttle shut off, but now goes into neutral real easy! Making some headway.

 

 Today I did some measuring on the clutch that is not in the bike checking out the YZ vs. WR springs.The compressed length of the springs (both YZ and WR) when installed in the clutch is right at One Inch, 130 thousandths. (1.130"). The WR springs appear to have enough clearance between the coils that they can  compress enough when the clutch is pulled in and that there will be no coil binding but the YZ springs might not have enough clearance, and that could have been why my hand was getting so tired when I tried them as they ARE very close to coil binding.The YZ's  have a different wind and spacing than the WR's and that extra length and spaces between windings does makes a difference and use's up some room.

 

 I may try the washers again with the WR springs as now I am starting to think due to the way it now feels that some of the problem might be when the clutch is pulled in it needs more room between the plates to allow the oil to escape faster from between them. I think now I am feeling a sort of a hydraulic drag due to the oil not escaping from between the plates quick enough when clutch is pulled in. This to me would explain why the drag lets up some when throttle is blipped while in gear and  at a stop with clutch in, or how a higher idle makes the drag less.The washer trick only gains a tiny amount though as the washers are about .060 thick and then you have to divide that by seventeen plates.

 

 Will update once I know more.

 

 Most people would have just sold the bike....but I am not much of a quitter!

 

 Sorry this turned into such a novel.

 

  

 

   



  • aust014

Posted August 21, 2014 - 08:18 PM

#18

I have been going at MY clutch drag problem all Summer long, and although I do seem to be gaining on it I am STILL having issues.

 

 I have a '99 400 that has the sweetest clutch I have ever had on ANY dirt scoot, or street bike for that matter, but unfortunately that year has no button on it so it has been turned into a DS bike cause I hate kicking em over all day out in the woods even though it starts first kick every time. We spend a LOT of time clearing and maintaining trails so LOTS of restarts, and I NEED a button!

 

 I am very surprised at what a GIANT leap backwards my '03 450 clutch is from the '99!

 

 I have checked all the plates and they are all good, flat, no burning, and look near new. The bike only has about 2500 miles on it.

 

 First attempt I tried the washers. They seemed to help while in the garage but once on the trail were a big FAIL! Creeps when in gear, keeps pulling at slow speeds when you pull clutch in and that sucks on tight knarly trails. Also real hard to find neutral. You can get it if you blip the throttle, but my real issue is the drag.

 

 Next, I tried replacing the judder spring and seat (which fit inside the innermost narrow cross section clutch plate) with a new full size clutch plate. This is how the YZ's of the same year are done. Not much change and when in the wet or rain you could feel it do this weird slip/judder on takeoffs. I opened it up again and tried adding YZ springs which really made it a LOT harder to pull and that wore my hand out PDQ. By about noon it was starting to cramp.Still did not cure the drag either.

 

 Next, I went into the clutch boss (innermost hub on the clutch) and noticed the six inner holes on the backside that allow the oil into the boss were really nasty looking holes with a lot of casting flash (burrs) built up around them. They are sort of strange holes in that only half the diameter of the drill point breaks through when they are machined but I figured that flash needed to be cleaned out so spent about an hour with an itty bitty file and opened and smoothed em out....figured a little more flow of oil might help. WRONG, no change.

 

 Next, I opened up the six holes that allow the oil to flow out of the boss onto the plates by fifteen thousandths (.015) I believe that calculated out to about 28 % more area which should flow quite a bit more oil. I have seen where they do this to the 250's and quite a few people rave about the results.We rode the next day in rain and it was a failure as well. Kept stalling the bike going DOWNHILL when I would pull the clutch in. Turned idle way up and that helped some but clutch would still drag at all slower speeds.

 

 Next, I picked up a used low mileage clutch off e-bay, so I took the boss on it, filed out the flash on the inlet holes and left the six outer holes stock size (.113) but added six more holes, same size in the same plane/rib as the six that were originally drilled into that boss. You want to keep them in the same plane as on the inside of the clutch boss there is a rib that catches the oil as it enters and directs it out a little channel cast in the boss to the outlet  holes. I also noticed that these six holes do not allow for hardly any oil to flow through to the outer 3-4 plates. Therefore I added three of the new six holes out near the outer front edge of the clutch boss. BIG DIFFERENCE! It still wants to creep a little, and will pull slightly when throttle shut off, but now goes into neutral real easy! Making some headway.

 

 Today I did some measuring on the clutch that is not in the bike checking out the YZ vs. WR springs.The compressed length of the springs (both YZ and WR) when installed in the clutch is right at One Inch, 130 thousandths. (1.130"). The WR springs appear to have enough clearance between the coils that they can  compress enough when the clutch is pulled in and that there will be no coil binding but the YZ springs might not have enough clearance, and that could have been why my hand was getting so tired when I tried them as they ARE very close to coil binding.The YZ's  have a different wind and spacing than the WR's and that extra length and spaces between windings does makes a difference and use's up some room.

 

 I may try the washers again with the WR springs as now I am starting to think due to the way it now feels that some of the problem might be when the clutch is pulled in it needs more room between the plates to allow the oil to escape faster from between them. I think now I am feeling a sort of a hydraulic drag due to the oil not escaping from between the plates quick enough when clutch is pulled in. This to me would explain why the drag lets up some when throttle is blipped while in gear and  at a stop with clutch in, or how a higher idle makes the drag less.The washer trick only gains a tiny amount though as the washers are about .060 thick and then you have to divide that by seventeen plates.

 

 Will update once I know more.

 

 Most people would have just sold the bike....but I am not much of a quitter!

 

 Sorry this turned into such a novel.

Holy crap  :jawdrop:  I want my brain to work like your's.. I need to think like that to figure stuff out. Have you put the bike on a stand to get the bike off the ground, and run it in first gear with the clutch engaged? Like I said when I did it the wheel was moving at an astonishing 6-8 mph.. in second it got up to around 10-11 mph. We put my brothers DRZ up on the stand and what do you know wheel doesn't spin at all 


Edited by aust014, August 21, 2014 - 08:43 PM.


  • Krannie McKranface

Posted August 21, 2014 - 09:10 PM

#19

Holy crap  :jawdrop:  I want my brain to work like your's.. I need to think like that to figure stuff out. Have you put the bike on a stand to get the bike off the ground, and run it in first gear with the clutch engaged? Like I said when I did it the wheel was moving at an astonishing 6-8 mph.. in second it got up to around 10-11 mph. We put my brothers DRZ up on the stand and what do you know wheel doesn't spin at all 

 

All 'real' dirtbike clutches due this.

You are over thinking this.

The WR clutches all drag a little bit.

You can put in new plates, and shim the springs, and it will work great....unless you actually use the clutch for modulationg power....then eventually, even without damaging the discs, it wil drag again.

It's just not the most sophisticated clutch actuation design.



  • ThumpMe

Posted August 21, 2014 - 09:11 PM

#20

Yeah it used to really spin pretty fast but the more I do to it the better/slower it has been getting....especially the last couple things I tried on it helped a lot.

 

 I figure in a few more years I ,might have it all figured out!






 
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